[Resto] Mists of Pandaria 5.3 - Page 20

Erdluf · 12/06/12, 6:32 AM

Heal / (100% - [haste%+1%] ) / Heal / (100% - [haste%]

Cast time is base/(1+haste%)
Not counting breakpoints, if your cast time is affected by Haste you end up with
HPS proportional to (1+haste%).
This is not an "increasing returns" formula. 100% haste makes some things twice as fast, not infinitely faster as your formula would imply.

Things with minimal haste benefit:
- CD's: Haste doesn't let me cast Swiftmend or Tranquility more often. It may allow me to cast more spells during ToL
- Rejuv: 1s cast time is not affected by haste. Between breakpoints, haste does let me cast Rejuv (without clipping) more often, a minor benefit.

A benefit sometimes overlooked, is that more haste means more clearcasts.

Haste does not have increasing returns. It provides minimal benefit (between breakpoints) to many of our important spells. Still, those qualitative arguments are weak next to the quantitative ones. If you math-out a tank-healing rotation or a raid-healing rotation, and the math says that mastery provides more benefit than haste, most players will gear mastery.

Numiro · 12/06/12, 7:40 AM

Originally Posted by Erdluf

Cast time is base/(1+haste%)
Not counting breakpoints, if your cast time is affected by Haste you end up with
HPS proportional to (1+haste%).
This is not an "increasing returns" formula. 100% haste makes some things twice as fast, not infinitely faster as your formula would imply.

Things with minimal haste benefit:
- CD's: Haste doesn't let me cast Swiftmend or Tranquility more often. It may allow me to cast more spells during ToL
- Rejuv: 1s cast time is not affected by haste. Between breakpoints, haste does let me cast Rejuv (without clipping) more often, a minor benefit.

A benefit sometimes overlooked, is that more haste means more clearcasts.

Haste does not have increasing returns. It provides minimal benefit (between breakpoints) to many of our important spells. Still, those qualitative arguments are weak next to the quantitative ones. If you math-out a tank-healing rotation or a raid-healing rotation, and the math says that mastery provides more benefit than haste, most players will gear mastery.

The problem with that is that you always have enough damage on some targets that you want to roll either lifebloom or rejuvenation on them, haste is a better stat regarding to healing then mastery here because you won't let your rejuvenation cut short. Think of it as a feral druid who doesn't let his dots fall of, he's not going to want to gear for specific breakpoints to make his dots tick as long as possible, he's just going to gear because it still increases his damage, he just needs to refresh them more often.

I've done a raid as 6652 capped right now and I must say I frickin' love it:
Dashboard - 05-12 19:14 - Fortes Fortuna Juvat - World of Logs

And if you compare it to my other raids pre haste cap (The monday is done in the exact same gear pieces with 3042 haste cap):
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

You can see that atleast I'm having a boost in healing because of it. (a 1 million raw healing increase compared to monday with a 20 seconds shorter fight)

Another million on Gara'Jal (Which is expected because haste is better then mastery for throughput if you dissregard mana)

I have to say the best example is Elegon though, one entire minute shorter fight, ONE ENTIRE million more healing done in one minute less.

This is after I swapped out roughly 1700 spirit and 1900 mastery to get to the cap.

Not to mention doing a really good run (for being me) on Blade'Lord, however I was solo healing last phase so that might've influenced it abit:
Restoration Druid rankings for Blade Lord Ta'yak - Heart of Fear, page 2 - World of Logs

Originally Posted by Payday

I raid 10 man and am 9/16 heroic currently. I've already begun shedding spirit, using some items like tier legs which have no spirit at all. So far the toughest fight for longevity is heroic emperor due to the constant damage and long fight length. It is the only fight where I truly feel like I'm scraping the bottom of the barrel. I typically run about 7-7.5k spirit and raid with a resto shaman so I do get tides.

I really think you should try going for the 6652 haste cap, I'm having huge success with it in 10 man so far and it feels alot better. I highely doubt it's better in 25 man, but the pure fact that you can heal half the raid with one spell is worth so much in 10 man if you ask me. If I remember correctly 1700 spirit is 600 hps in extra rejuvenations while the hastecap is atleast another 1400 hps because of the added tick. (This is with the wild growth glyph, I yet haven't tried it without since I feared alot for my mana the first raid I did with it, but it felt good)

Wild growth is also alot better then rejuvenation for the constant damage since it's more hpm (IIRC)

Have anyone tried 6652 without wild growth glyph in 10 man? Going to try it but don't have a raid untill sunday.

Satanicway · 12/06/12, 11:23 AM

Originally Posted by Erdluf

Cast time is base/(1+haste%)
Not counting breakpoints, if your cast time is affected by Haste you end up with
HPS proportional to (1+haste%).
This is not an "increasing returns" formula. 100% haste makes some things twice as fast, not infinitely faster as your formula would imply.

Things with minimal haste benefit:
- CD's: Haste doesn't let me cast Swiftmend or Tranquility more often. It may allow me to cast more spells during ToL
- Rejuv: 1s cast time is not affected by haste. Between breakpoints, haste does let me cast Rejuv (without clipping) more often, a minor benefit.

A benefit sometimes overlooked, is that more haste means more clearcasts.

Haste does not have increasing returns. It provides minimal benefit (between breakpoints) to many of our important spells. Still, those qualitative arguments are weak next to the quantitative ones. If you math-out a tank-healing rotation or a raid-healing rotation, and the math says that mastery provides more benefit than haste, most players will gear mastery.

Sorry but you are wrong.
It has increasing returns, and i will prove it again.

1 sec cast time 10% haste, 1000 healing = 1111,11 HPS
1 sec cast time 15% haste, 1000 healing = 1176,47 HPS

1 sec cast time 50% haste, 1000 healing = 2000,00 HPS
1 sec cast time 55% haste, 1000 healing = 2222,22 HPS

1176,47/1111,11 = 1,058 or +5.8%
2222,22/2000,00 = 1,111 or +11,1%

So its definitively increased in returns for the same %.

You distorted my original formulas, they are:

Heal / (100% - [haste%+1%] ) / Heal / (100% - [haste%] )

Your formula isnt a right way to calculate haste. If by any means you acquire 100% haste you will have instant casts locked down by GCD minimum value of 1sec, but its not like 100% hast = 1/2 time of the cast.
If you have 50% haste then yes you have half of the cast. You are undervaluing haste because you took the way it works wrongly.

About Swiftmend, i agree that its less benefitial, only reducing the GCD there, but it affects the efflorence ticks, and its a huge part of SM heals, so not totally lost there.
Tranquility is a minor loss imo, and there is haste caps that can help with it.

And the benefits to many of the heals are not only breakpoints, the overall HPS is greater if you do the math.

Please prove mathematically what you are implying, so that i can see where i'm wrong.

But thanks for the reply, i will re do my math to make sure nothing is wrong.

Edit:
Also thanks for noting that clearcast procs will increase.
This means that 10% extra haste will give you between 10 and 15% more clearcast procs, again depending on how much haste you already have, the more the greater your haste affect will be.
With this maybe haste might even be mana positive in practice.

And about rejuvenation, its not about an infinite hp bar. Most of the time when a rejuvenation finish the target is already full HP, because there is more then one healer in the raid group. So if you rejuvenation heals faster, it will save that player from death faster, avoid im taking another damage and dying, and will avoid overhealing better because it will stays at the target less, meaning that it has less time to another healer aoe heals or your own aoe heals to hit that target and makes the rest of your reju a waste.
So the benefit is roughly equal of any casted heals for rejuvenation, the only reduction in effectivity is on non reduced GCD, so you receive only RejuFullTime / Rejufulltime+1 * Haste effect. Not a huge loss since reju tends to be more them 11 seconds of full time at any possible haste value.

Hamsda · 12/06/12, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by Satanicway

Your formula isnt a right way to calculate haste. If by any means you acquire 100% haste you will have instant casts locked down by GCD minimum value of 1sec, but its not like 100% hast = 1/2 time of the cast.
If you have 50% haste then yes you have half of the cast. You are undervaluing haste because you took the way it works wrongly.

Sorry to break it to you, but you are simply wrong. Each and every theorycrafter will tell you this and you can even test it ingame.

The correct way to calculate the gains of haste is, as erdluf already explained:
hasted_casttime = base_casttime/(1+total_haste%)

Once you get to 50% haste, your GCD will be at 1 second since 1.5s/(1+50%)=1s.
Should you reach 100% haste, you will definitly NOT be using instant casts, which you would know if you ever fought Sinestra during Cataclysm, but rather you halved all your cast times.

Test it ingame to see for yourself. It will probably be most noticeable on the cast time of tranquility. I sadly can't check your armory to calculate your actual channeling time because I do not know your haste rating, but you can just calculate it with both methods and compare them with what is displayed ingame.

Simply claiming haste works the way you described and arguing based on that claim won't make any of it right, though.

Payday · 12/06/12, 11:39 AM

@ Satanicway

You are right in that haste will help during burst, but you are also wrong because as you cast more spells more often, due to shorter duration, you not only lose mana, but also time spent casting. The reason haste breakpoints exist is because of this trade off. In order to make the loss of casting time worthwhile, you must gain another tick to at least compensate if not gain in the trade.

@ Numiro

Your success could be due to many factors, but I doubt haste is the one. The 'best example' as you say, the Elegon fight, had to be from killing more orbs (in order to shorten the fight by that much), which means more damage taken, and more damage to heal. I just looked at your logs, and it's clear you completely outclass your other healers in all cases, both shamans by the looks of it. In my 10 man, I raid with a shaman main healer and paladin with main spec ret. The shaman almost always is 5-10% ahead of me unless it is a spread out fight (not many.. kings, blade lord, wind lord, empress.. that's about it). So, when your other healers are not as good, you are left with artificially boosted results. For example, in my logs I show an Elegon normal kill from October where the shaman was at 57k hps and I was at 51k hps. We combined for 108k hps. In your latest Elegon normal you were at 62k hps and your shaman at 45k hps. Combined this is 107k hps. See what I mean?

The last tick of WG is the highest overheal, and this is the tick added by 6652. Meanwhile with mastery all of your ticks are stronger, meaning you have a higher chance to make that extra healing effective. With haste you risk having 100% loss to overheal, with mastery you risk less because the healing is applied to the entire spell. If all but one tick is effective heal, haste gives you absolutely nothing. With mastery, you've gained ~90% of the item budget you put into that spell. All it takes is one tick to overheal to make your haste gearing give you nothing. If you have 2 ticks that overheal, mastery still gives you something, 3 ticks, and so on.

Satanicway · 12/06/12, 11:45 AM

Hamsda:

You are right, im sorry for that.

I will run my calculations again based on this.

Edit:

With this values for Haste has decreasing values.
It increased the heal by exactly the value % of haste.
Ex: If you have 0% of haste, and gain 10% of haste, you will increase your healing by 10%

So its exactly like Mastery, but has lower itemization cost.

So my point stays, and i reinforce the fact that making Mastery the same % as Haste % is the best HPS possible.
Since they are multiplicative, the more balance you achieve between both of them, the better will be the HPS result.

Now with this, haste isnt a clear winner at HPS, but wins by little because of less points/%. (Also remember that the base 10% mastery makes mastery start behind since it has diminishing returns)

Still the reduction on overhealing, the gain on clearcasting, the increased burst on aoe, and the fact that with this there is less chance of people dying, i still think that haste can be discussed.

ac90b671 · 12/06/12, 1:52 PM

Originally Posted by Numiro

This is after I swapped out roughly 1700 spirit and 1900 mastery to get to the cap.
...
You can see that atleast I'm having a boost in healing because of it. (a 1 million raw healing increase compared to monday with a 20 seconds shorter fight)

You have to compare apples to apples. This example world of logs isn't a fair comparison. Any time you swap spirit for haste, crit or mastery you will see a HPS increase as long as you don't go oom. To do a comparison at all between haste and mastery, you'd have to swap only mastery for haste. Comparing two different pulls on two different days is somewhat meaningless due to the huge number of factors as said above such as raid damage, duration, other healers gear and rotation and your own rotation, but if you want to begin to do such comparisons, you have to at least only change one aspect of your gear; you can't change your spirit and mastery to haste to hope to do a comparison of haste vs mastery.

Some food for thought; I'd contend that if all other things were kept equal (somehow), if you could reforge that 1700 spirit to mastery, instead of the 1700 spirit and 1900 mastery to haste, that you would do more hps that either situation.

Another thing to consider that I believe to be true (but don't really have any proof of), is that the value of haste goes down as your idle time goes up. Chain casting is one thing, but I personally at least let my HoTs tick and sit idle for a second or two while something like WG or SM comes off CD as long as raid dmg isn't crazy.

Numiro · 12/06/12, 2:41 PM

Originally Posted by Payday

@ Satanicway

You are right in that haste will help during burst, but you are also wrong because as you cast more spells more often, due to shorter duration, you not only lose mana, but also time spent casting. The reason haste breakpoints exist is because of this trade off. In order to make the loss of casting time worthwhile, you must gain another tick to at least compensate if not gain in the trade.

@ Numiro

Your success could be due to many factors, but I doubt haste is the one. The 'best example' as you say, the Elegon fight, had to be from killing more orbs (in order to shorten the fight by that much), which means more damage taken, and more damage to heal. I just looked at your logs, and it's clear you completely outclass your other healers in all cases, both shamans by the looks of it. In my 10 man, I raid with a shaman main healer and paladin with main spec ret. The shaman almost always is 5-10% ahead of me unless it is a spread out fight (not many.. kings, blade lord, wind lord, empress.. that's about it). So, when your other healers are not as good, you are left with artificially boosted results. For example, in my logs I show an Elegon normal kill from October where the shaman was at 57k hps and I was at 51k hps. We combined for 108k hps. In your latest Elegon normal you were at 62k hps and your shaman at 45k hps. Combined this is 107k hps. See what I mean?

The last tick of WG is the highest overheal, and this is the tick added by 6652. Meanwhile with mastery all of your ticks are stronger, meaning you have a higher chance to make that extra healing effective. With haste you risk having 100% loss to overheal, with mastery you risk less because the healing is applied to the entire spell. If all but one tick is effective heal, haste gives you absolutely nothing. With mastery, you've gained ~90% of the item budget you put into that spell. All it takes is one tick to overheal to make your haste gearing give you nothing. If you have 2 ticks that overheal, mastery still gives you something, 3 ticks, and so on.

The thing is that I measured RAW healing, that means I did 1 million more with my mana in 1 minute less, there's no other factors to handle except the fact that I might have to panic heal more then others because of the performance of the other healers.

I'm aware I totaly outclass my healing comrads, that's something that has been obvious to me for a very long time now, thank you for telling me that

I'm once again measuring raw healing not any kind of theoretical number, I'm measuring what I did during a specific time and that tells me that I did 1 million more healing in one minute less when I had the 6652 haste cap compared to the 3042 one.

So let's sum up what haste does for us:
420 haste gives us 1% healing. (No this does _NOT_ exclude rejuvenation because you tend to roll it on specific targets therefore increasing its healing however the effects aren't exactly 1% on rejuvenation, but then again, there are other factors that boost hps so the 1% is an understatement)
6652 haste gives us 1400 hps from wild growth, which is an understatement.

Mastery:
480 points (I think) gives us 1% healing.

Is there any other arguments that I've missed?

• Hamlet · 12/06/12, 3:20 PM

Originally Posted by ac90b671

Another thing to consider that I believe to be true (but don't really have any proof of), is that the value of haste goes down as your idle time goes up. Chain casting is one thing, but I personally at least let my HoTs tick and sit idle for a second or two while something like WG or SM comes off CD as long as raid dmg isn't crazy.

More to the point--the value of non-breakpoint haste drops to essentially nothing during any stretch in which you have any idle time between spells whatsoever.

When you pull together and spam a bunch of stuff, haste accelerates what you do by 1% per 425, while mastery would have done it by 1% per 480. And haste takes that healing out of spells elsewhere in the fight by costing you mana, and mastery does not. So in the best case for haste, it lets you inefficiently spam for a very minor gain over other stats, whereas mastery gives you that 1% benefit completely consistently at all times.

Akusei · 12/06/12, 3:52 PM

@Numiro

So I looked at the last 3 10m Normal Elegon fights you have on WOL (12-5, 12-3, and 11-21 from most recent to oldest). It would seem that your healing output is inversely proportional to your partner's output. When your partner isn't healing as much, you tend to pick up the slack. It's also hard to believe that you had the same gear in all 3 logs (though the 2 recent are likely to be very similar if not the same) or that the other 3 healers: Winshock, Yunad, and Kinyo are all of equivalent skill/gear.

I'm not suggesting that you're entirely wrong on your assessment but rather pointing to the fact that there are a few important variables which might be skewing your results.

Looking at your last 2 raids, it would seem that the damage per second your raid took was about the same for both raids but the healer in the older raid (Yunad) did significantly more healing per second than the healer you raided with in the more recent instance (Winshock). Obviously this could go either way in that if you're healing more (supporting your theory on haste), then the other healer wouldn't have as much to heal and therefore be lower than the other case. However, as a HOT user using mostly hots to produce their healing output, it's unlikely that the other healer wouldn't be able to snipe your heals, denying you the extra healing via haste.

What's really interesting about the most recent 2 logs is that your WG only received about 1k effective hps increase, your Rejuv actually lost 2.7k effective hps, but your LB gained a whopping 5.4k hps--astounding. It should also be noted that it was your overall top heal as well, which is very unusual. We should also consider your use of RG as well as you ended up using it a lot less in the last minute of the fight when all the damage is going out and the fact you were able to benefit from Mana Tide Totem on the more recent fight allowing you to push out more healing, though I'm at a loss as to what you spent the extra mana on if your Rejuv healing went down.

Given that you increased your haste to get the extra tick on WG, I'm surprised it didn't gain more healing. You should also recognize that your over healing increased for each of those spells as well in the span of 2 days.

What does all this mean?

I guess to me, it means that there's really not enough data to make concrete statements. I would probably lean towards the fact that you picked up slack from a lesser healer. I don't know your other healers very well or their gear. I would say if you like the way having more haste and less mastery or spirit feels and your group isn't noticeably suffering, then do whatever you like. But the math just doesn't support it (I at least haven't seen any that does).

Haste (outside of getting additional ticks) can help improve HPS in small time deltas where Rejuv gets its 5th tick .4 seconds quicker than a slower Rejuv but the Rejuv with the higher mastery will do much more healing overall once its 5th tick shows up .4 seconds later (or whatever the incremental value may be). In the event that you're keeping Rejuv ticking on a target constantly, that means you're giving up an extra GCD every X casts (1 GCD every 30 cycles/casts of Rejuv based on a .4 second difference in duration; 6 minutes worth of Rejuvs) to keep it up, not to mention the extra mana required to pump out that extra cast. You can't forget that we're not working in an unlimited mana supply situation. So casting more spells faster will eat through your mana faster which will leave you unable to sustain for as long. So sure, in an 11ish second time period, you might get out more healing but in a 12ish time period you're going to get beat and have used more mana on average.

But hey, there are a ton of factors to consider when looking at a single parse. I would be more apt to side with the theoretical/simulated numbers than 2 parses with different healing comps and fight lengths. I'm glad there are people out there willing to try things outside of the "generally accepted best." It gives different perspective and gives us all something to talk about to try to improve!

Numiro · 12/06/12, 6:25 PM

Originally Posted by Akusei

@Numiro

So I looked at the last 3 10m Normal Elegon fights you have on WOL (12-5, 12-3, and 11-21 from most recent to oldest). It would seem that your healing output is inversely proportional to your partner's output. When your partner isn't healing as much, you tend to pick up the slack. It's also hard to believe that you had the same gear in all 3 logs (though the 2 recent are likely to be very similar if not the same) or that the other 3 healers: Winshock, Yunad, and Kinyo are all of equivalent skill/gear.

I'm not suggesting that you're entirely wrong on your assessment but rather pointing to the fact that there are a few important variables which might be skewing your results.

Looking at your last 2 raids, it would seem that the damage per second your raid took was about the same for both raids but the healer in the older raid (Yunad) did significantly more healing per second than the healer you raided with in the more recent instance (Winshock). Obviously this could go either way in that if you're healing more (supporting your theory on haste), then the other healer wouldn't have as much to heal and therefore be lower than the other case. However, as a HOT user using mostly hots to produce their healing output, it's unlikely that the other healer wouldn't be able to snipe your heals, denying you the extra healing via haste.

What's really interesting about the most recent 2 logs is that your WG only received about 1k effective hps increase, your Rejuv actually lost 2.7k effective hps, but your LB gained a whopping 5.4k hps--astounding. It should also be noted that it was your overall top heal as well, which is very unusual. We should also consider your use of RG as well as you ended up using it a lot less in the last minute of the fight when all the damage is going out and the fact you were able to benefit from Mana Tide Totem on the more recent fight allowing you to push out more healing, though I'm at a loss as to what you spent the extra mana on if your Rejuv healing went down.

Given that you increased your haste to get the extra tick on WG, I'm surprised it didn't gain more healing. You should also recognize that your over healing increased for each of those spells as well in the span of 2 days.

What does all this mean?

I guess to me, it means that there's really not enough data to make concrete statements. I would probably lean towards the fact that you picked up slack from a lesser healer. I don't know your other healers very well or their gear. I would say if you like the way having more haste and less mastery or spirit feels and your group isn't noticeably suffering, then do whatever you like. But the math just doesn't support it (I at least haven't seen any that does).

Haste (outside of getting additional ticks) can help improve HPS in small time deltas where Rejuv gets its 5th tick .4 seconds quicker than a slower Rejuv but the Rejuv with the higher mastery will do much more healing overall once its 5th tick shows up .4 seconds later (or whatever the incremental value may be). In the event that you're keeping Rejuv ticking on a target constantly, that means you're giving up an extra GCD every X casts (1 GCD every 30 cycles/casts of Rejuv based on a .4 second difference in duration; 6 minutes worth of Rejuvs) to keep it up, not to mention the extra mana required to pump out that extra cast. You can't forget that we're not working in an unlimited mana supply situation. So casting more spells faster will eat through your mana faster which will leave you unable to sustain for as long. So sure, in an 11ish second time period, you might get out more healing but in a 12ish time period you're going to get beat and have used more mana on average.

But hey, there are a ton of factors to consider when looking at a single parse. I would be more apt to side with the theoretical/simulated numbers than 2 parses with different healing comps and fight lengths. I'm glad there are people out there willing to try things outside of the "generally accepted best." It gives different perspective and gives us all something to talk about to try to improve!

I pop tree of life during last phase on elegon.... Why would I be pushing rejuvenation over lifebloom if I'm really low on mana? That's also the reason for the massive lifebloom numbers, in 10 man you can have 10 3 stacks rolling during tree of life, which you won't be doing in 25 man because it's a waste of time and healing. I've seen lifebloom being nr 1 multiple times on farm content. Not to mention all the downtime Elegon has, where I do nothing but heal with lifebloom (people still need some healing, but it's easy to take care of with shrooms and lifebloom.)

You're forgetting one thing, I'm raiding 10 man, I don't let rejuvenation drop of anyone during high damage phases, I push wild growth, swiftmend and rejuvenation on those phases this means I get more hps from haste then mastery, even though I do spend some more mana but I generally feel that I gain enough from the ability to handle burst better and the fact that you gain atleast some more clearcasting procs.

Yes there are tons of variables in a log, but you're forgetting one thing, the math still says I do better healing with haste.

I've mentioned that I gained a whopping 13k raw hps on that fight, that's not just a little bit and can't be explained by picking up slack.

I'd also like to add that I love the haste cap, it gives you a challenge in healing because if you push your wild growth just a tad to early you've lost 3k mastery for nothing, not to mention that I acctualy feel like my hots are enough healing most of the time for once. I know for a fact that I like the haste healing style alot more, atleast while I'm still raiding 10 man.

Edit to clarify:
I'm getting more hpm with the haste cap, I end my fights at 0 mana 99% of the time on elegon because I keep track of boss hp, enrage timers and all the other important info to know how long I have to keep people alive.

Akusei · 12/06/12, 7:42 PM

Originally Posted by Numiro

I pop tree of life during last phase on elegon.... Why would I be pushing rejuvenation over lifebloom if I'm really low on mana? That's also the reason for the massive lifebloom numbers, in 10 man you can have 10 3 stacks rolling during tree of life, which you won't be doing in 25 man because it's a waste of time and healing. I've seen lifebloom being nr 1 multiple times on farm content. Not to mention all the downtime Elegon has, where I do nothing but heal with lifebloom (people still need some healing, but it's easy to take care of with shrooms and lifebloom.)

Oh absolutely! I was just shocked to see the difference in your LB output between the 2 most recent fights. You popped Tree of Life at approximately the same time in both fights but you gained a lot of output. I'm assuming you didn't do anything substantially different from a mechanic point of view from one fight to another.

Originally Posted by Numiro

You're forgetting one thing, I'm raiding 10 man, I don't let rejuvenation drop of anyone during high damage phases, I push wild growth, swiftmend and rejuvenation on those phases this means I get more hps from haste then mastery, even though I do spend some more mana but I generally feel that I gain enough from the ability to handle burst better and the fact that you gain atleast some more clearcasting procs.

I didn't forget you're raiding 10m. Again, I was surprised to see your Rejuv healing go down. I would have expected the HPS of Rejuv to increase, not decrease, if you're able to keep the raid blanketed in Rejuv. Your overall healing HPS increased for the fight but Rejuv went down. This seems counter-intuitive.

Also, increasing your haste (in this case) isn't going to increase the total amount of healing of Swiftmend or Efflorescence--the Cooldown on Swiftmend is not going to get any smaller (you're not really using HT, so even if you had that glyph, it's not going to make a huge difference) and Efflorescence isn't going to gain any additional ticks of healing, though it and Swiftmend will have lower healing due to lower Mastery.

Originally Posted by Numiro

Yes there are tons of variables in a log, but you're forgetting one thing, the math still says I do better healing with haste.

I've mentioned that I gained a whopping 13k raw hps on that fight, that's not just a little bit and can't be explained by picking up slack.

13k? Unless I'm misreading this, I'm seeing your kill attempts as:

................HPS...............HPS(e)
12-5.........61,763.2........60,247.2
12-3.........56,424.6........56,413.3
Difference...5,338.6.........3,833.9

So I'm seeing your raw increase by 5.3k and effective increase by 3.8k. These numbers are well within the realm of possibility of picking up slack. Again, if I'm misreading this, I'm sorry.

Also, I think you're confusing 'math' with 'results.' This isn't a personal shot at you or anything. I just don't think the actual math supports what you're claiming. I think Hamlet and others have shown that the math, indeed, does not say you do better healing with haste. Hamlet made a really good point from a conceptual perspective about Haste and Mastery a couple posts back. That being said, YOU might do better healing with haste because it better fits your style and/or preferences.

Which brings us to your last statement:

Originally Posted by Numiro

I'd also like to add that I love the haste cap, it gives you a challenge in healing because if you push your wild growth just a tad to early you've lost 3k mastery for nothing, not to mention that I acctualy feel like my hots are enough healing most of the time for once. I know for a fact that I like the haste healing style alot more, atleast while I'm still raiding 10 man.

I have to admit, I'm probably not that great at healing compared to a good deal of others who have spent much more of their wow playing time devoted to healing. Because of this, I probably benefit more from a healing style that isn't overly punishing for making small mistakes like using WG too early and not having it fully used or other tiny errors that would otherwise be covered up by having a more forgiving gearing setup.

Numiro · 12/06/12, 8:24 PM

Oh absolutely! I was just shocked to see the difference in your LB output between the 2 most recent fights. You popped Tree of Life at approximately the same time in both fights but you gained a lot of output. I'm assuming you didn't do anything substantially different from a mechanic point of view from one fight to another.

Haste gives more tics, if you roll them. It's bound to be alot better if I can stack them up faster and throw in more spells outside of it, tree of life is exactly where haste goes from being great to being insane in 10 man.

I didn't forget you're raiding 10m. Again, I was surprised to see your Rejuv healing go down. I would have expected the HPS of Rejuv to increase, not decrease, if you're able to keep the raid blanketed in Rejuv. Your overall healing HPS increased for the fight but Rejuv went down. This seems counter-intuitive.

I've removed roughly 1700 spirit, IIRC that's 600 hps in added rejuvenations vs 1400 with nonstop use of wild growth on cooldown.

Also, increasing your haste (in this case) isn't going to increase the total amount of healing of Swiftmend or Efflorescence--the Cooldown on Swiftmend is not going to get any smaller (you're not really using HT, so even if you had that glyph, it's not going to make a huge difference) and Efflorescence isn't going to gain any additional ticks of healing, though it and Swiftmend will have lower healing due to lower Mastery.

No but it reduces the global cooldown, so it's still acctualy increasing my healing more then mastery.

13k? Unless I'm misreading this, I'm seeing your kill attempts as:

................HPS...............HPS(e)
12-5.........61,763.2........60,247.2
12-3.........56,424.6........56,413.3
Difference...5,338.6.........3,833.9

So I'm seeing your raw increase by 5.3k and effective increase by 3.8k. These numbers are well within the realm of possibility of picking up slack. Again, if I'm misreading this, I'm sorry.

No, I'm seeing a _raw_ 13k healing increase, my raw healing for the two fights looks like this:

Fight 1:
Raw healing (Pre haste cap):
44 074 211
Raw HPS:
44 074 211 / (8*60+59) =
81770,335 raw HPS

Fight 2:
Raw healing (post haste cap):
45 282 844
Raw HPS:
45 282 844 / (7*60+59) =
94536,208 raw HPS

94536,208 - 81770,335 =
12765,873 ~= 13k raw hps increase.

You're not using raw healing numbers, you're using effective hps and actual hps.

Also, I think you're confusing 'math' with 'results.' This isn't a personal shot at you or anything. I just don't think the actual math supports what you're claiming. I think Hamlet and others have shown that the math, indeed, does not say you do better healing with haste. Hamlet made a really good point from a conceptual perspective about Haste and Mastery a couple posts back. That being said, YOU might do better healing with haste because it better fits your style and/or preferences.

The math is clear, haste gives more healing at the cost of mana during high damage periods.
When does people die?
During high damage periods.

When do you waste mana normally?
During high damage periods.

The math and the logic tells me that haste gives me better healing during high burst moments, I don't go oom unplanned if someone doesn't fuck up, that doesn't happend, so the point is 100% of when and where I want to locate my healing, it's very rare that you lack healing in a low damage moment, so why gear to improve that?

I'm a great supporter of Hamlet, I'm so close to calling him a god, but I think he's too stuck in 25 man to see my point in that even rejuvenation gets hps from haste because you roll it on specific targets, atleast that's what I tend to do. Not to mention that it isn't the stable healing we need, we need something to help us with burst, atleast in 10 man, not sure how druid healing really works in 25 man since all I've done is LFR ^^

I shall now stop pestering this thread with my doubts, should anyone wish to discuss this further you're welcome to PM me.

Taringe · 12/07/12, 9:51 AM

Originally Posted by Numiro

You're not using raw healing numbers, you're using effective hps and actual hps.

Effective and Actual Healing are the important numbers. Having high raw healing doesn't mean you're putting healing out where and when it is needed.

You're trying to make the argument that you increased your Raw Healing from 12-3 raid to the 12-5 raid. That’s great and all, but your raid took less damage in 12-5, so why is all that extra output important? Your raid's overhealing went from 37.5% to 47.9%. You made better use of your cooldowns on 12-5 using both Tree and NV twice each, whereas you only used them once each on the longer fight on 12-3 both of these will have an impact of your Raw Healing.

Additionally, you one-shotted on 12-3, which just some late deaths in the final burn. On 12-5 you had a wipe where multiple people (including a tank) died from lack of healing - best I can see is random WG ticks on these people in the 10 or so seconds leading up to their deaths.

Basically, for me, you've continued to reiterate the same weak arguments based on anecdotal evidence (three raids does not a proper data set make, as has been mentioned). But in the end, healing is a an art. And as long as people stay alive all art is beautiful.

Numiro · 12/07/12, 11:00 AM

Originally Posted by Taringe

Effective and Actual Healing are the important numbers. Having high raw healing doesn't mean you're putting healing out where and when it is needed.

You're trying to make the argument that you increased your Raw Healing from 12-3 raid to the 12-5 raid. That’s great and all, but your raid took less damage in 12-5, so why is all that extra output important? Your raid's overhealing went from 37.5% to 47.9%. You made better use of your cooldowns on 12-5 using both Tree and NV twice each, whereas you only used them once each on the longer fight on 12-3 both of these will have an impact of your Raw Healing.

Additionally, you one-shotted on 12-3, which just some late deaths in the final burn. On 12-5 you had a wipe where multiple people (including a tank) died from lack of healing - best I can see is random WG ticks on these people in the 10 or so seconds leading up to their deaths.

Basically, for me, you've continued to reiterate the same weak arguments based on anecdotal evidence (three raids does not a proper data set make, as has been mentioned). But in the end, healing is a an art. And as long as people stay alive all art is beautiful.

I've said that I'd not wish to continue this discussion since it's pointless when we have no real facts that both sides agree upon but I'll repeat my self one last time.

Haste is more benefical due to the ability to handle burst healing phases and saving peoples lives in a different way then mastery, it's been said over and over that haste is a better stat then mastery if you ignore mana losses. I can't prove anything, but what I _FEEL_ (Note the FEEL, no facts, no argument to base anything on), that haste works in a better way then mastery when it comes to saving people.

All of this is based around 10 man, where haste is substantialy better because you have less people reacting to the same threats. (For example priests are great at burst AoE, in a 10 man group you'll have a lot less priests then in 25 man and therefore also lower ability to react to bursts.)