[Resto] Mists of Pandaria 5.3 - Page 21

Akusei · 12/07/12, 2:23 PM

Numiro, I hope you're not feeling attacked or anything. This is an interesting discussion and should be used to help all of us be better.

Numiro · 12/07/12, 2:36 PM

Originally Posted by Akusei

Numiro, I hope you're not feeling attacked or anything. This is an interesting discussion and should be used to help all of us be better.

Not really, I feel more like an idiot because I can't understand why haste is bad :'(

Dack · 12/07/12, 7:59 PM

Originally Posted by Numiro

Not really, I feel more like an idiot because I can't understand why haste is bad :'(

Let me take a swing at it again.

From my point of view, you got a fixation on numbers, healing per second (HPS) most of all, and then you contradict yourself. You put a lot of weight in RAW healing done (13k? hps increase from one parse to another), and point out that "healing matters in stressing situation" -> burst healing. WG and RJ overhealing and/or total output numbers dont tell how you handled the pressing situation.

You had an example where a tank on 100k HP took dmg and a rejuv will have saved him if it ticked faster. Nice thought experiment, and that is indeed true, that a faster tick might have saved the tank. It is taken out of context tho. With mastery instead of haste, the tank might have been at 150k? Why wasnt the tank healed before. Why not heal with regrowth / HT when the tank is obviously low. Mana issues? -> Alot of questions arise where the road to the dying tank at 100k HP and a rejuv running, might turn out differently.

The math supports mastery > haste. But we arent talking about HUGE differences here. Healing is very effected by gear and 'random' factors / interaction with the other healers. How your CDs line up with raid dmg etc. If you can make it work with haste, go for it, personally I got a more spirit heavy approach than most.
- (7/16 HC, 496 ilvl, 4 setbonus ~9k spirit with 2 regen trinkets)

Numiro · 12/08/12, 2:59 PM

Originally Posted by Dack

Let me take a swing at it again.

From my point of view, you got a fixation on numbers, healing per second (HPS) most of all, and then you contradict yourself. You put a lot of weight in RAW healing done (13k? hps increase from one parse to another), and point out that "healing matters in stressing situation" -> burst healing. WG and RJ overhealing and/or total output numbers dont tell how you handled the pressing situation.

You had an example where a tank on 100k HP took dmg and a rejuv will have saved him if it ticked faster. Nice thought experiment, and that is indeed true, that a faster tick might have saved the tank. It is taken out of context tho. With mastery instead of haste, the tank might have been at 150k? Why wasnt the tank healed before. Why not heal with regrowth / HT when the tank is obviously low. Mana issues? -> Alot of questions arise where the road to the dying tank at 100k HP and a rejuv running, might turn out differently.

The math supports mastery > haste. But we arent talking about HUGE differences here. Healing is very effected by gear and 'random' factors / interaction with the other healers. How your CDs line up with raid dmg etc. If you can make it work with haste, go for it, personally I got a more spirit heavy approach than most.
- (7/16 HC, 496 ilvl, 4 setbonus ~9k spirit with 2 regen trinkets)

Let me state the facts:
*Haste is better if you ignore mana
*Haste wastes less mana because of how it applies its effects, allowing you to stabilize someone easier with hots alone.
*Mastery is stronger in long term no threat situations, but we all know that those doesn't exist in the game, they do however in simulations.
*Using mastery you'll cast more regrowths therefore wasting mana on stabilizing someone compared to haste.
*Mastery is easier to use and less punishing for misstakes. (Haste = high risk high reward)

Lazerdollarz · 12/08/12, 3:24 PM

Those aren't facts, those are your opinions. They aren't backed up by math, and they aren't applicable in real heroic raiding situations. The purpose of this guide is to provide mathematical insight into heroic raiding situations, so why haven't you done anything but offer up mathematically unsound conjecture this entire time? Mastery is mathematically superior to above-breakpoint haste for restoration druids. Your feelings about healing normal mode Elegon don't change this.

Continue gearing your druid the way you want and the way that seems appropriate for your raid team, but please stop acting like your personal gearing strategy is superior to the gearing strategy that has been mathematically proven to you over and over again in this thread.

ac90b671 · 12/08/12, 5:48 PM

Originally Posted by Numiro

*Haste is better if you ignore mana

IIRC going for the 2nd haste breakpoint, 6652, is a 4% HPS gain while sitting at 3043 haste and having the remaining 3609 points in mastery is a 6% hps gain. So even including a WG breakpoint mastery is better per point. HPS gains for haste outside of breakpoints are much less than that. Outside of Rejuv/Tranq breakpoints haste is per point below mastery and crit.

Originally Posted by Numiro

*Haste wastes less mana because of how it applies its effects, allowing you to stabilize someone easier with hots alone.

If you cast the same spells with a haste build and a mastery build, mana consumption will be the same obviously. The difference is that with a mastery build, those same casts will do more healing. With a haste build you either do less healing or cast more to do the same amount of healing. From a mana standpoint, the opposite is true. To do equivalent HPS with haste you "waste" more mana.

Originally Posted by Numiro

*Mastery is stronger in long term no threat situations, but we all know that those doesn't exist in the game, they do
however in simulations.

Are you trying to set up a "The tank will die in 1.2 seconds. Do you want a 1.1 second cast or a 1.3 second larger cast?" If so, the answer to that question is Lay on hands, void shift, swiftmend, nature's swiftness spirit link, whatever. You can't be specing for .1 second faster cast times and justify it saying, it's to help with tank deaths. Every healing spec has instant casts to deal with this rare situation. The larger question is why the tank is so low. In this post cata raid climate, it takes a while for tanks, or anyone else, to drop. 0 haste cast times would be enough. If this were tanking in Wrath, it may be a different argument.
Otherwise if you mean haste is better for just heavy raid damage, like elegon p3 or tsulong night phase with a Rejuv/WG spam it's just back to the haste vs mastery hps argument. You in a solo healing situation will bring a raid from 20% to full health faster with mastery than haste. Therefore mastery is better for deaing with heavy damage. HoTs hitting harder does more HPS than HoTs ticking slightly faster. Math is math. In your head, obviously ticking faster is good, but that doesn't change that per point you can't get haste to do more HPS than mastery.

Originally Posted by Numiro

*Using mastery you'll cast more regrowths therefore wasting mana on stabilizing someone compared to haste.

The complete opposite is true. With mastery you are doing more healing per cast. That means in a haste build you have to augment your rotation with more spells, including regrowth, to "stabilize" (do the same amount of healing in the same amount of time)

Originally Posted by Numiro

*Mastery is easier to use and less punishing for misstakes. (Haste = high risk high reward)

Mastery buffs everything you do. Haste makes everything you do faster. If you don't utilize the haste, i.e. not chain casting, you will do less healing. If you do chain cast, you will still do less HPS than if you had a mastery build and to try to compete, you use more mana. All for what? To have some theoretical edge on hard casting a tank on the edge of death. It is high risk in the since that is the inferior gearing but there isn't some high reward. Best case you do a bit less HPS and use a bit more mana to do it.

Numiro · 12/09/12, 7:52 AM

I've already said that I do not wish to continue this discussion, I feel like both sides are ignoring the simple facts and there's nothing to gain from it. If you wish to discuss this further you're welcome to PM me.

mashdar · 12/09/12, 12:17 PM

I just accidentally reforged to 3042 haste and am still getting the extra RJ tick with 12.52% shown on character sheet. Is the 3043 inflated by 1 to avoid the 2004 cata breakpoint debacle? It appears that it may not be perfectly accurate.I'm wrong.

Lazerdollarz · 12/09/12, 12:22 PM

Rejuv tick is 3039 haste, you just gear up to 3043 because it's so easy and you get an extra tick on the Tranquility HoT.

mashdar · 12/09/12, 12:24 PM

Originally Posted by Lazerdollarz

Rejuv tick is 3039 haste, you just gear up to 3043 because it's so easy and you get an extra tick on the Tranquility HoT.

Oh. I'm an idiot. Tyvm.

• Hamlet · 12/09/12, 11:04 PM

Still always good to confirm these things. If anything, would we worth checking Tranq in your 3042 set, then we could be sure (careful though, Tranq is tricky to count due to the stacking).

mardish · 12/11/12, 7:09 PM

What are everybody's thoughts on the value of our 4pc bonus? I haven't experimented with SotF much yet, Incarnation has been great for maintaining mana/HPS with radically low Spi, but I'm faced with a tricky case that others may be facing as well.

4pc bonus with two 483 pieces and two 496s... Gloves and Legs are 496 and staying, but Helm and Shoulders are of questionable value since I have a 502 helm and 489 Shoulders (and the socket bonuses are better, yellow/red instead of blue, allowing me to dump 320 spi).

[Hood of Cursed Dreams]
[Spaulders of the Divided Mind]
vs.
[Eternal Blossom Mantle] - LFR 483
[Eternal Blossom Helm] - LFR 483

Numiro · 12/12/12, 9:39 AM

Originally Posted by mardish

What are everybody's thoughts on the value of our 4pc bonus? I haven't experimented with SotF much yet, Incarnation has been great for maintaining mana/HPS with radically low Spi, but I'm faced with a tricky case that others may be facing as well.

4pc bonus with two 483 pieces and two 496s... Gloves and Legs are 496 and staying, but Helm and Shoulders are of questionable value since I have a 502 helm and 489 Shoulders (and the socket bonuses are better, yellow/red instead of blue, allowing me to dump 320 spi).

[Hood of Cursed Dreams]
[Spaulders of the Divided Mind]
vs.
[Eternal Blossom Mantle] - LFR 483
[Eternal Blossom Helm] - LFR 483

To me the only reason you'd chose the set bonus over ilvls are if you are using SotF and the haste cap, SotF isn't that much of an upgrade compared to incarnation and do keep in mind that you lose 1 wild growth every 5th if you decide to go for wg + sotf every time it's up, if you don't then the set bonus has little to no use if you don't need the hasted rejuvenations 4/5 swiftmends (10 sec wild growth 12 sec swiftmend = only lining up each 5th cast if used on CD)

However I do love the burst SotF provides, I don't think it's worth changing healing style to fit it, especially if you're in 25 man.

Has anyone played around with the math for the wild growth glyph in 10 man? It's a 400 mana per _SECOND_ "gain" if you use it on cooldown, not using it on cooldown makes the glyph even more worth it, the glyph also helps with burst, so I'm having a really hard time finding a reason to remove it even in 10 man, is it just that broken?

mardish · 12/12/12, 9:57 AM

I haven't done the math, but anecdotally, removing the glyph for two weeks in 10N/10H obliterated my healing potential and mana, returning it let me pursue my aggressive war against spirit. My situation may be different than others, as I run with a phenomenal disc priest which is one reason I'm not really interested in sotf...nothing to wild growth after he spirit shells everything.

Akusei · 12/12/12, 1:14 PM

Originally Posted by mardish

What are everybody's thoughts on the value of our 4pc bonus? I haven't experimented with SotF much yet, Incarnation has been great for maintaining mana/HPS with radically low Spi, but I'm faced with a tricky case that others may be facing as well.

4pc bonus with two 483 pieces and two 496s... Gloves and Legs are 496 and staying, but Helm and Shoulders are of questionable value since I have a 502 helm and 489 Shoulders (and the socket bonuses are better, yellow/red instead of blue, allowing me to dump 320 spi).

[Hood of Cursed Dreams]
[Spaulders of the Divided Mind]
vs.
[Eternal Blossom Mantle] - LFR 483
[Eternal Blossom Helm] - LFR 483

The 4p is roughly worth about 3,800 HPS when looking at Swiftmend potential.

I was looking at my Swiftmend/Efflorescence numbers in a non raid setting last night and my SM came out to around 60k while the Efflorescence ticks were about 7.5k, so looking at it conservatively, while maximizing targets, I get 7k * 8 ticks * 3 targets + 60k for SM = 228,000 healing. Since you can SM 4 times a minute with the 15s CD vs 5 times a minute with the 12s CD, you get an extra 228,000 per minute at the cost of a GCD (if you figure you already have Rejuv on a target). 228,000 healing / 60s = 3.8k HPS.

These numbers are on the conservative side, so you're likely to see higher results while raid buffed or if you have better gear.

If you were replacing your chest piece instead of your shoulders, you'd be in a better position to go for 4p given that the shoulders in our 4p are poorly itemized from a secondary stat point of view. You're also giving up a lot of throughput stats in the mastery/Int areas. And you have to remember that if you're not using SM on CD, you're losing the benefit of the bonus and that bonus 3.8k HPS will quickly go to 0. It's not like the 2p where getting the mana discount on Rejuv is pretty much ALWAYS useful.