I have started to add in the new trinkets into the trinket section. I have not completed the proc information as yet (Hamlet - did you math this out somewhere already? I thought I saw you post on it and now can't find it - if not no big deal. I saw Therya's spreadsheet work in the shaman forum and can chat to her about popping our numbers in. Note: I am unsure if you put in treecalcs already).

If anyone has comments from practical experience with the trinkets that you think it's important to mention, please let me know. (Note: I read the commentary on Horridon's already).

If I have made a mathmatical error in what is already posted, please give me a nudge.

But isn't that the entire point of stacking Spirit? Surely if you are farming a boss and the raid knows what to do, having too much Spirit (or Intellect or Mastery for that matter) doesn't really matter? Isn't the extra mana you get when learning a fight exactly why it's at least a decent way to gear?

I think I actually never did in it detail, just discussed RPPM with Therya. Nothing super complex, anyone who knows RPPM has probably worked them out by now, except that Horridon's can stack (but that's rare anyway.)

Just briefly: Soothing Talisman MP5 is easy, but it's better than it looks since it comes in such big chunks so the extra use matters.
For now just say Horridon's MP5 = (mana per proc)*(1.05 PPM)*Haste/12 . So e.g. normal Horridon's would be 725 MP5 before you multiply by haste. This is a slight underestimate since it ignores stacking, but not a big deal at only 1 PPM.
Chalice: I'm inclined to agree. It was a good trinket in WLK, but not so much now. A randomly-timed heal can be completely irrelevant way too often.
Hydra-Spawn: proc might be useful over the next 15s, but is so much smaller, and the passive is Spirit.
Relic seems a lot better, since it produces nominally the same amount of shielding as Hydra-spawn, but you can control it.

For normal, Soothing is pretty solid. And after that probably have to take Horridon's because it has Int and a solid mana proc.

At the Heroic tier, you either just stick with Soothing or pick the best weird heal proc. That Blizz forum post undervalues the weird heal procs since it compares them all against a base of 100k average effective healing over a whole fight. Have to compare Lightning-Imbued (big and gives Int) vs. Relic (controlled and gives Spirit).

Pretty much the same as always--since they won't give healer passive Int + Int proc, we always take either passive Int + mana proc, or passive secondary + good Int proc. Right now that's only Horridon's or Soothing.

Yeah, I avoid the "more Spirit makes sense when doing a harder task (heroic progression, underhealing)" trope. Basically, as you say--if something is a better stat for harder tasks, then it's a better stat. The argument is that Spirit isn't a better stat. But like I said above, it's a weaker argument for Druids now that Spirit's gotten nicer--it's pretty justifiable as a #2 stat behind mastery.

But having mana troubles with 12k Spirit sort of evidences the problem--you've trained yourself to think you need more mana to cast more heals, so you got more Spirit, so now you have to try to cast more of your weaker heals and you still think you don't have enough mana. The healer who trained in MoP with 6k-7k and learned to work with it, maybe going up to 9k with natural gear upgrades, is going to be in a much better position.

While I agree that getting used to having less mana is a good thing, I also think it perhaps has to do with one's level of progression. I'm currently at 10,000 Spirit and don't feel like I need any more than that - I might go to 9,000 to see how it works out, but I would argue that at lower levels of progression, people tend to stand in the fire a bit longer and as such, the extra mana can be of great help by the end of a fight.

i know how useful swiftmend is and i use it as often as i could, mainly for big aoe situations....but timing it to go with WG for aoe isnt always a 15 secs thing. I'm not sure if it was here or a different forum, but someone said that not having 4p wouldn't be a bad thing, providing you know how to time your spells, which is something i've learned to do. I think getting higher ilvl, might be a better upgrade now, but i guess ill havE to experiment

Strange you had such an uptime on horridon trinket . I managed to win (coin) the thunderforge version tonight so i replaced darkmoon trinket(2/2 upgrade) to test it . In two fights council and tortos it never went above 21,5% uptime but if you calculate the mana it gives back is more than 2/2 upgraded darkmoon trinket by around 10k (depending on length of time) * I hope i didt made any mistakes when i calculated the difference in mana (assuming 50% uptime max of darkmoon trinket for better calculations ; while is usually around 40-41% uptime).

I also tested FON in tortos (i use sotf build even when nobody was using it) to see its healing during heavy period of times. It was avg 14317.7 avg . heal (i have 4 new items after tonight's raid so my stats are now different than the testing) and avg crit heals were 23723.6

In 258 hits 9 crit (so treants can crit with healing touch!) not a very high % but at least they can crit . In a 6 minute fight they did 1.05m healing.

p.s. Update : It is strange but i calculated my mana per 5 secs from thunderforge trinket right now to be 1003,708333333333 per 5 secs on a 6min fight and 1034,88053270662 on a 8min fight based on the ammount of mana i got back in that fight and based on the duration of the fight. If numbers are like that it means that i was wrong in what i said earlier that is better than reforge darkmoon trinket unless wol is showing wrong numbers for trinkets.

Disregard stupidity.

It's more complicated than that. I'm not sure what you mean by "SP is constant but mastery is linear." Both increase your healing in exactly the same linear fashion. Int is worth more than 1 SP due to buffs, also. With Armor spec, Mark, and HotW, it's worth 1.169 SP. See this discussed in detail here: http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t130799-...ria_5_2_a/p22/

Either way, with the 30k+ spellpower people have now, guessing the result is that mastery is slightly favored anyway, but it's really a very minor difference. Easiest thing is to check treecalcs in your exact setup though (might still need some updating, but int/mastery comparison won't really have changed).

Pardon me. I'm not quite sure what I meant either. Say rather that mastery simply scales better per point of SP than SP does. My napkin math forgot to account for SP scaling with mastery while quite happy to acknowledge mastery scaling with SP so I ended up with a much earlier cutoff. I'm good at maths.

Thanks - I'd thought you'd discussed it in great detail (math functions are bit over my head), so simpler rules and real results were greatly appreciated. If I read it all correctly, I'll keep the following unbuffed equation for my comparison of which gems to favor.

Total SP vs 22605 +/5843*Mastery

For me right now that is

28105 = 22605 + .5843*5140 or 28105 = 25608

so I'll be doing some regemming to add 1280 more Mastery and still be favoring mastery going forward
28105 = 26356