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Old 10/19/12, 11:45 PM   #121
Payday
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Darkspear
Hamlet, can you comment on SotF when used with Rejuvenation? My testing indicates almost as much healing from Rejuvenation as from Wild Growth. Would rarely be useful on 10 man raiding, but on 25 if a druid is assigned to tank healing it could be powerful.

3043 haste

SotF WG = 4 extra ticks (weak ones) times 6 targets
SotF RJ = 3 extra ticks (same strength)

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Old 10/20/12, 2:10 AM   #122
Numiro
Von Kaiser
 
Worgen Druid
 
Ravencrest (EU)
Originally Posted by Payday View Post
Hamlet, can you comment on SotF when used with Rejuvenation? My testing indicates almost as much healing from Rejuvenation as from Wild Growth. Would rarely be useful on 10 man raiding, but on 25 if a druid is assigned to tank healing it could be powerful.

3043 haste

SotF WG = 4 extra ticks (weak ones) times 6 targets
SotF RJ = 3 extra ticks (same strength)
I don't know about you, but my lowest wild growth ticks are at 2,3k unbuffed, while rejuvenation ticks for roughly 11,5k
If I assume your ticks are correct without checking them up I end up having:
2*4*6 = roughly 50k healing from Wild Growth.
11.5*3 = 35k healing from rejuvenation.

Do keep in mind that the average tick of wild Growth is larger then 2k,

The numbers are very rough, but in any kind of raiding gear your numbers should be higher if you're pressing wild growth then rejuvenation after swiftmend.

Rejuvenation scales less with spellpower as well, roughly 15%, this means that the longer into the expansion we get, the larger the impact is of using Rejuvenation rather then Wild Growth.

Edit: I totaly missread wowheads spell tooltip that has different coefficency on rejuvenation and wild growth, total of WG and per tick on Reju, therefor it might be ticking more in a raid enviroment, here are the numers from my world of logs from last sunday.

Rejuvenation average tick:
12339

WG Average tick:
2402

Doing the napkin math again we get the following:
12339*3 = 37017 for rejuvenation
2402*4*6= 57648 for wild growth, so it'll be quite a while untill the spellpower is high enough to cover up 20k healing per activation of the spell.

Last edited by Numiro : 10/20/12 at 2:40 AM.

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Old 10/20/12, 3:11 AM   #123
Payday
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Darkspear
My gear has changed quite a lot since I tested this a couple weeks ago. Back then my lowest wild growth ticks were in the 1700 range. Now my lowest is about 2700 at the end of a SotF WG. My rejuvenation has improved as well though at 13.9k per tick.


2700 x 4 x 6 = 64,800
13900 x 3 = 41,700

Not quite as close as I was thinking, but still surprising given 4 ticks on our bread and butter AOE vs 3 ticks of single target. Now that I've been away from SotF for a while, I can't think of any use for it but in this manner, for tank healing. Even then, incarnation may be superior depending on the damage the tank is taking.

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Old 10/20/12, 3:23 AM   #124
Numiro
Von Kaiser
 
Worgen Druid
 
Ravencrest (EU)
Originally Posted by Payday View Post
My gear has changed quite a lot since I tested this a couple weeks ago. Back then my lowest wild growth ticks were in the 1700 range. Now my lowest is about 2700 at the end of a SotF WG. My rejuvenation has improved as well though at 13.9k per tick.


2700 x 4 x 6 = 64,800
13900 x 3 = 41,700

Not quite as close as I was thinking, but still surprising given 4 ticks on our bread and butter AOE vs 3 ticks of single target. Now that I've been away from SotF for a while, I can't think of any use for it but in this manner, for tank healing. Even then, incarnation may be superior depending on the damage the tank is taking.
Yea I used to favour SotF heavily aswell, but Incarnations mana saving capabilities are worth so much more in this tier.

There's one major flaw in your math, the fact that you assume that the extra ticks gets added at the lowest possible tick amount, this is not true, the ticks happends faster, but the decreases stay at the same time intervals, so depending on your haste you get a small difference in value from it, but in general you can safely assume that the ticks equal to your average healing, not the lowest tick, but the average healing, when you factor this into the entire formula you'll see that the numbers increase even further.

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Old 10/20/12, 3:34 AM   #125
Payday
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Darkspear
Yes I have accounted for that. I don't know the formula so I just used a worst case scenario and said it will be slightly better than 'this'. Part of why I asked for other's input.

Something odd I've noticed. Sometimes I WG and the amount healed stays the same from start to finish. I haven't been able to replicate the behavior on command yet. I'll keep messing with it. I had one earlier that was 3519 every tick.

Also worth noting regarding SM + RJ for tank healing. T14 4 piece brings SM cd down to 12 seconds. RJ with 3043 haste (+5%) is just slightly shorter in length meaning you could have your tank's RJ permanently hastened without losing much up time.

Last edited by Payday : 10/20/12 at 3:52 AM.

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Old 10/20/12, 5:24 AM   #126
Numiro
Von Kaiser
 
Worgen Druid
 
Ravencrest (EU)
Originally Posted by Payday View Post
Yes I have accounted for that. I don't know the formula so I just used a worst case scenario and said it will be slightly better than 'this'. Part of why I asked for other's input.

Something odd I've noticed. Sometimes I WG and the amount healed stays the same from start to finish. I haven't been able to replicate the behavior on command yet. I'll keep messing with it. I had one earlier that was 3519 every tick.

Also worth noting regarding SM + RJ for tank healing. T14 4 piece brings SM cd down to 12 seconds. RJ with 3043 haste (+5%) is just slightly shorter in length meaning you could have your tank's RJ permanently hastened without losing much up time.
This is a bug with insane amounts of haste, it doesn't only affect WG, but it's normally the only spell we notice it on. It ticks for the average value instead of decreasing so it's not game breaking.

The problem with that is that you have to delay your rejuvention cast by up to half a second, that half a second adds up really fast when it comes to healing done, using rejuvention + swiftmend as fast as possible means you won't be able to swiftmend when the CD is over so you need two rejuventions per "good" rejuvention, if you're not using unglyphed regrowth which is quite poor when it comes to tank healing.

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Old 10/20/12, 8:46 AM   #127
Regallion
Glass Joe
 
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Night Elf Druid
 
Борейская Тундра (EU)
Just chiming in to say-the obsession with using SoTF+WG is overwhelming here. Honesly i generally use it as an on-demand heal boost-if i need raid healing i cast a WG, if i need to heal a tank i use rejuv, if i REALLY need to toss a quick heal and NS is on CD i use it for a real quick HT. it's a pretty versatile talent which doesn't require you to lock yourself in a rotaion-and you can make use of it a whooping 12 times per 3 minutes. With that said there are encounters which make incarantion look that much better~

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Old 10/20/12, 10:14 AM   #128
Payday
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Darkspear
Originally Posted by Numiro View Post
This is a bug with insane amounts of haste, it doesn't only affect WG, but it's normally the only spell we notice it on. It ticks for the average value instead of decreasing so it's not game breaking.

The problem with that is that you have to delay your rejuvention cast by up to half a second, that half a second adds up really fast when it comes to healing done, using rejuvention + swiftmend as fast as possible means you won't be able to swiftmend when the CD is over so you need two rejuventions per "good" rejuvention, if you're not using unglyphed regrowth which is quite poor when it comes to tank healing.
I thought most people had unglyphed Regrowth by now. In a raid setting with improving gear you should be around 75-80% crit on Regrowth. I've removed my Regrowth glyph and my crit level is almost the same. As gear improves further it will even easier to justify removing the glyph.

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Old 10/20/12, 11:29 AM   #129
apostolis
Von Kaiser
 
Troll Druid
 
Twisting Nether (EU)
I think the regrowth glyph especially when you dont have much gear is a good one . What else can you get ? Faster cast of nourish ? or healing touch glyph? This basically replaces healing touch (which i believe need some love in future patch) from your rotation since it makes regrowth a "better" cast spell .

A question i have is and i will try to get an answer from blizzard if they admit the haste limits they are being published are correct. I never saw a post from blizzard saying that the haste limits are correct. I know it might sound silly but i wonder if some people have test e.g. why not 3038 and its 3043 etc..

Concerning the healing from wg you cant exactly measure it since people have different stats stack which affects the healing of it . Not to mention the trinkets proccing .

In addition nobody mentions the 1846 haste limit of sotf or the next one which is 5730 (is it obtainable without losing other important stats?). Do mind that the brewfest trinket of 5702 haste has an uptime of 13% in fights.

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Old 10/20/12, 12:56 PM   #130
 Hamlet
<Druid Trainer>
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
Estimating the value that 50% haste adds to one cast of a DoT doesn't need to get too fancy--just increase the total healing from the cast of the DoT by 50%. This will be accurate within one tick, depending on where your haste was relative to breakpoints in the first place. (In practice, we will probably get slightly under 50% added ticks on average, due to the bias towards gearing to just after a breakpoint).

A Rejuv cast does substantially less total healing than on WG cast. So it's the desired SotF spell when you're not using WG, but still much less benefit (incidentally, if you were worried about rolling a hasted HoT on the tank, you'd just SotF your Lifebloom).

I've not tried SotF much, but based on my experiences playing Resto a lot so far, I'm understanding less and less why it would be appealing to me. I will try it some more soon just to see if this changes anything (admittedly I have an issue with not using cooldowns like Tree often enough in the first place, reducing their value).

-------------------

Unglyphed Regrowth. With 60% crit and 5% from raid buff, you must be gearing somewhat heavily for crit to be reaching 80%. Now certainly you can do this, unglyph Regrowth, and have a pretty strong spell. But you can also bias your stats into heavy mastery, keep Regrowth glyphed, and have both benefits (as well as a better benefit to your other spells from mastery rather than crit). So it seems the most efficient min/maxing is to make crit a dump stat, cancel out the detriment to RG using a glyph, and get a better value by putting all those stat points somewhere else.


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Old 10/20/12, 6:59 PM   #131
Payday
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Darkspear
I've been unfortunate enough to have almost all of my epic drops come in the spirit with crit flavor. The upgrade in intellect and spirit is enough to offset the small difference between crit and mastery so I wear it, and reforge them to haste or mastery depending on needs. That said I still have about 1400 crit rating I can't get rid of so I have about 10% unbuffed crit. I have 14k intellect unbuffed giving me 7.41% crit (7.7% buffed with stats) and a little over 2% from crit rating. With flask and food I would guess my crit to be just a bit over 15%, perhaps 16%. I'll have to look when we raid again.

Actually happened to still have last raid's info in my recount (WotE, so more Regrowth than normal). Regrowth had 55 crits 11 hits for a ~80% crit rate.

I agree about SotF being hard to find useful now. I was just trying to think how it might be possible to use our tools in new ways. As for LB, would that be superior to RJ to roll hastened?

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Old 10/20/12, 7:16 PM   #132
 Hamlet
<Druid Trainer>
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
I guess they're about the same total healing actually (although hasting a LB does shorten the cast time, for whatever that's worth). LB does add CC procs.


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Old 10/21/12, 2:45 AM   #133
Regallion
Glass Joe
 
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Night Elf Druid
 
Борейская Тундра (EU)
Shortens....the cast time? wait so if i refresh LB with a hasted HT my LB is hasted too? That's not the kind of behaviour i would expect from this.
By the way did anyone even TRY to use treants in the actual raiding? i assume they are horribad but maaaaybe they can have an actual use?
Oh and-any thoughts on using DoC as a healer? getting 30% boost to your WGs or rejuvs on-demand by use of DoC sounds kind of nifty and it might even be better than 6% straight int. The only problem i see is that this setup is inompatible with SoTF...

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Old 10/21/12, 6:50 AM   #134
Numiro
Von Kaiser
 
Worgen Druid
 
Ravencrest (EU)
Originally Posted by Regallion View Post
Shortens....the cast time? wait so if i refresh LB with a hasted HT my LB is hasted too? That's not the kind of behaviour i would expect from this.
By the way did anyone even TRY to use treants in the actual raiding? i assume they are horribad but maaaaybe they can have an actual use?
Oh and-any thoughts on using DoC as a healer? getting 30% boost to your WGs or rejuvs on-demand by use of DoC sounds kind of nifty and it might even be better than 6% straight int. The only problem i see is that this setup is inompatible with SoTF...
The problem with that is the fact that you have to spend atleast a GCD, I haven't looked into it yet, but DoC is in general good for feral because they are not limited by GCD's, rather by resources, a resto druid in general is limited by GCD when the healing is needed. There might be ocassions where 30% healing on one spell can outshine an entire extra spell, but I'd assume that is very rare and needs alot of preparation.

Edit: After reading the tooltip it's even less worth, you can't procc it with moonfire only (while running) so therefore you have to cast a wrath, which is about 1.9 seconds for me (Not counting the other things that affects spell casting like ping). It just seems so much of a waste for simply 30% healing.

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Old 10/21/12, 6:57 AM   #135
Dummy
Glass Joe
 
Worgen Druid
 
Gorgonnash (EU)
Originally Posted by Regallion View Post
Shortens....the cast time? wait so if i refresh LB with a hasted HT my LB is hasted too? That's not the kind of behaviour i would expect from this.
By the way did anyone even TRY to use treants in the actual raiding? i assume they are horribad but maaaaybe they can have an actual use?
Oh and-any thoughts on using DoC as a healer? getting 30% boost to your WGs or rejuvs on-demand by use of DoC sounds kind of nifty and it might even be better than 6% straight int. The only problem i see is that this setup is inompatible with SoTF...
No I don't think that is what he means, he probably refered to the GCD, which is 1s baseline for rejuvenation but not for lifebloom

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