[Balance] Mists of Pandaria 5.2, Guide and Discussion [5.3 updates] - Page 18

Zantaz · 01/10/13, 8:24 AM

Any thoughts on the announced T15 set bonuses?

The extra critical strike from the 4-set looks as though it may be an attempt to keep the effect of the T14 4-set but in a different way - which isn't too surprising seeing as Blizzard said they wouldn't keep offering DoT extension, even though they know it has such a profound impact on our rotation.

Tuscarora · 01/10/13, 8:59 AM

The numbers should look good for Patchwerk encounters but I fear that the 4-piece is going to widen the gap between static DPS and movement DPS (since NG uptime drops significantly with movement, one of the reasons our movement DPS is low)

nephyron · 01/10/13, 9:46 AM

The perfect solution for this "i can't drop Incarnation because it's much better than SotF since it provides a burst CD" would be to give Incarantion baseline, lower it's power allowing every druid in every spec to retain a burst CD (to compensate for the lack of execute phase spells) and give us a totally new talent choice.

• Hamlet · 01/10/13, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by Tuscarora

The numbers should look good for Patchwerk encounters but I fear that the 4-piece is going to widen the gap between static DPS and movement DPS (since NG uptime drops significantly with movement, one of the reasons our movement DPS is low)

It will widen it a little. You can think of the bonus as basically being off whenever you're moving (because movement time more or less directly subtracts from NG uptime). But it does look very strong on Patchwerk, so think we'd still be happy.

Originally Posted by nephyron

The perfect solution for this "i can't drop Incarnation because it's much better than SotF since it provides a burst CD" would be to give Incarantion baseline, lower it's power allowing every druid in every spec to retain a burst CD (to compensate for the lack of execute phase spells) and give us a totally new talent choice.

Or just buff SotF further. The current PTR buff helps a little for Resto although I've still never been a fan of the concept. For Balance, the current PTR buff doesn't do much because--well in one half of the rotation it doesn't do anything, mostly. And in the other half you could still produce the same effect by using an SS post-Solar (I think people just didn't practice this since nobody had the talent anyway). That would be a good point for feedback actually.

♦ Tecton · 01/10/13, 12:51 PM

Yeah, numerically the bonuses seem fine, we have to work around NG uptime and movement anyway. My issue is that they're a bit dull, being basically just passive bonuses when a lot of the other classes are getting something a bit more directly useful (extra DPS cooldowns/mechanics to reward intelligent play/free AOE/etc).

Erdluf · 01/10/13, 10:03 PM

If you have any movement or downtime at all during Lunar or Post-Lunar, your final pre-Solar SF is cast without NG (as is your final post-CA SF). For many current players, that means that 1s of AC might be a better choice than SF.

Napkin math with WC numbers:
Rotation DPS (excluding 3min cooldowns) is about 99k/s
Non NG SF takes 2.1s and averages 97k damage. In some sense, your rotation "lost" (2.1*99k-97k) = 110k of damage to get that last 20 energy. If you had used AC instead, you would have spent 1s doing no damage. Your rotation loses (1*99-0) = 99k of damage potential. AC seems to be the better choice. I do find spell-queuing and channeled spells don't always seem to play nicely together. That may mean 10% better is not really enough for this argument to be compelling.

4t15 will make that argument much stronger (non-NG nukes will look much worse, you may also end up saving all SS for Eclipse).

Tuscarora · 01/11/13, 7:05 AM

Originally Posted by Erdluf

If you have any movement or downtime at all during Lunar or Post-Lunar, your final pre-Solar SF is cast without NG (as is your final post-CA SF). For many current players, that means that 1s of AC might be a better choice than SF.

Napkin math with WC numbers:
Rotation DPS (excluding 3min cooldowns) is about 99k/s
Non NG SF takes 2.1s and averages 97k damage. In some sense, your rotation "lost" (2.1*99k-97k) = 110k of damage to get that last 20 energy. If you had used AC instead, you would have spent 1s doing no damage. Your rotation loses (1*99-0) = 99k of damage potential. AC seems to be the better choice. I do find spell-queuing and channeled spells don't always seem to play nicely together. That may mean 10% better is not really enough for this argument to be compelling.

4t15 will make that argument much stronger (non-NG nukes will look much worse, you may also end up saving all SS for Eclipse).

One problem in your numbers is that you compute damage lost / gained as (average DPS)*time but you should compute (marginal DPS)*time, where marginal DPS is generally lower than average DPS for a DoT class.

A simple, extreme example: suppose some class has a DoT that ticks for 100k/second and a nuke that refreshes the DoT, deals 20k damage and needs 2 seconds to cast. Average DPS is 110k but the DPS you lose by missing a nuke is not 2*110k = 220k but only 20k.

A better way to find a quick estimate of your proposed rotation would be to modify the Wrathcalcs rotation model (or the Simulationcraft action list) so you can also estimate NG and DoT uptime effects.

• Hamlet · 01/11/13, 9:24 AM

Probably interesting enough for me to try putting on the list, but it would be some work. Especially since it would apply even if there were more than one cast to be filled in.

• Hamlet · 01/16/13, 1:45 PM

Updated OP with 5.2 information in brackets, and other updates.
--Displacer Beast is a nice Blink-type talent, although Wild Charge still has a shorter cooldown.
--Force of Nature should now be very competitive (in particular it should obsolete Soul of the Forest), although we should try to figure out the expected number of casts a little better.
--Heart of Wild is likely to do more DPS than Nature's Vigil, though we should remember to check this in practice. NV's healing being up more often is a least a consideration to keep in mind.
--Deleted stuff about Dream of Cenarius, it's too obscure to be practical (basically requires 4T14, high haste, and a Patchwerk situation).
--Changed Symbiosis notes since Mirror Image does no DPS.
--Added best trinkets at T14 according to WC.
--Updated Jade Spirit (also in spreadsheet).
--Updated Leatherworking.
--Generally modified stat advice to reflect being at first haste breakpoint and otherwise gearing for crit.
--Slightly updated DoT refreshing advice.
--Updated Nature's Vigil timing for 5.2.
--Changed AoE advice to favor Hurricane more over multi-dotting.
--Modified detailed SotF casting advice.
--Added more details on opening timers.

• Hamlet · 01/16/13, 9:35 PM

On PTR at least, the three Treants from one summon all hit exactly in unison. So that has to mean there's some regularity to this, right? But I still only get 6 Wraths each, even though it's a 2s cast (or very slightly less with my low haste) and they live for 15s. So I don't know, maybe there's some totally constant gap in their casting for some reason. I still get 6 even with NG.

e: With 3756 haste and Moonkin Form, I get 6 casts without NG, and 9 if summon immediately when NG starts.

♦ Tecton · 01/17/13, 4:10 AM

Yeah, you want to drop them every time with NG as they snapshot your haste when you drop them. Their casting speed won't drop after NG expires unless it's been changed since beta, so hit Eclipse then if any procs are "due" you can wait a second or two for that as well. They behaved much better when I did some testing on them in beta once you got to higher haste values. I seem to recall being able to push it up to 11 casts in beta, though.

• Hamlet · 01/17/13, 9:01 AM

I'd retest on snapshotting haste, as I wasn't convinced of that yesterday. I'm not totally sure it matters in practice though, as NG uptime is so high, and it's not worth holding them very long to get an extra cast or two.

♦ Tecton · 01/17/13, 2:03 PM

Originally Posted by Hamlet

I'd retest on snapshotting haste, as I wasn't convinced of that yesterday. I'm not totally sure it matters in practice though, as NG uptime is so high, and it's not worth holding them very long to get an extra cast or two.

Retested it just now, you're right and this has been fixed, it does update with Haste procs.

However, here's where the difficult part is going to come in: it appears to only be checking your Haste value periodically and doesn't pick up haste buffs as soon as you get them. This is pretty easily shown by casting FoN (watching your pet's cast times), then proc NG. It just took 4 additional casts before their cast time updated.

Anyway, I'm going to do some tests (combined with some reforging/Essence of Terror procs) to see how high I can ratchet up the number of casts!

• Hamlet · 01/17/13, 2:05 PM

Are you moving your mouse off the icon and putting it back on to recheck the cast time in the tooltip? I forgot now whether that matters.

♦ Tecton · 01/17/13, 2:16 PM

I'm watching their actual cast time on their casting bar.

[edit] Without regemming, the highest I can get is 14647 Haste while Essence of Terror is procced. That's still only resulting in 9 casts even with their cast down to 1.27s-ish.[/edit].