[Balance] Mists of Pandaria 5.2, Guide and Discussion [5.3 updates] - Page 2

• Hamlet · 09/24/12, 9:04 AM

Originally Posted by Earen

Alright, I ran 10 tests. I did a setup identical to what I did for the darkglow testing here. I started casting each time 30 seconds after the end of the prior proc. Let me know if you'd like me to run some additional ones.

49 sec
53 sec
49 sec
54 sec
54 sec
58 sec
50 sec
52 sec
60 sec
49 sec

30s after Lightweave ended, so 45s after it started? A bit late to start casting for the test, but since it looks like the earliest you have is 49s after Lightweave ends, for an ICD of 64s, we have our answer anyway.

Bleh, so what I have in OP is right--they nerfed both ICD and Int of Lightweave, putting it slightly under other professions (even on paper if you get perfect procs, but really somewhat less since you don't get perfect procs).

Aside: That Darkglow test in the video doesn't actually prove anything since you start casting each time 45s or more after the previous proc ended, which is after even a 60s ICD as already run :/ . You need to be casting already when you think the earliest possible ICD is ending. Using something spammy like keeping DoTs up on a bunch of dummies makes it very easy to tell.

• Hamlet · 09/24/12, 9:11 AM

Originally Posted by âve

As far as I can see we generally use crit gems instead of int gems for our sockets. However for the meta socket we use the Burning Primal Diamond which has int, although we could use Revitalizing Primal Diamond instead. This gives us additional spirit (=hit rating) which means we can either take less items with spirit and more items with crit or reforge less to spirit and more to crit instead. That means you can assume that the 432 Spirit on this gem translate roughly to 432 more crit rating. Shouldn't this be more beneficial?

we can do this with exp/crit gems in red sockets, too.

Yes, if it does turn out that crit is your best stat (compared to half an Int or other secondary stats), Revitalizing meta or exp gems would be strong, I should update for that.

Note that it's not quite so simple though. Think of Cataclysm. Since you wore haste items in every slot and reforged to haste already when you couldn't, it's very rare that extra hit translated to extra haste--it usually translated to the second-best stat, which was mastery. Same idea here: if crit's the best stat, you may already have it in every slot while still being hit capped (except at the very early stages), so excess hit really translates into something weaker than crit, probably haste.

This is even messier when haste breakpoints are involved, but I'd caution people not to overvalue those--this isn't Resto.

♦ Earen · 09/24/12, 9:53 AM

Originally Posted by Hamlet

You need to be casting already when you think the earliest possible ICD is ending. Using something spammy like keeping DoTs up on a bunch of dummies makes it very easy to tell.

I was unaware, and when we were working on it no one pointed that out. I am now educated. For completeness sake (and science!), I have rerun them both using SW:P and keeping it active on the target dummy full time.

Lightweave

65 sec.
70 sec
64 sec
72 sec
64 sec

Darkweave

60 sec.
57 sec
56 sec
51 sec
56 sec

Which, I suppose, would put Darkweave at a longer ICD than the 50 seconds I had listed.

• Hamlet · 09/24/12, 10:14 AM

Yeah, sorry, was just typing fast in the morning, figured you got what I meant. So these are measured from start of previous proc (looks like it)? So yeah, 50s Darkglow, 60s Lightweave.

I guess I should say Lightweave still isn't necessarily weaker than others. Perfect 60s proc would line it up with other profs, but even if something like a 65s average proc with full DoTs, you do get a proc at the start of the fight (which is also often synced with everything) so it evens out more. Maybe this is the right balance for it.

♦ Earen · 09/24/12, 10:20 AM

Originally Posted by Hamlet

So these are measured from start of previous proc (looks like it)?

This is correct. I started the timer when Darkglow/Lightweave proc'd and ran it until it proc'd again.

• Hamlet · 09/24/12, 10:32 AM

Does anyone have a good explanation with math of the Mooncat thing? I might not be too hard to work out a rough estimate, but someone just needs to tell me:
1) AP coefficients (or equivalently, normalization--however you guys think of it) of Rake, Mangle, FB (the only spells the Mooncat has). Similarly, what's Cat white DPS?
2) What are the actual Agi/hit buffs from HotW?

It's going to be a rough thing at best since I don't want to add a whole bunch of Cat stats to the entire workings of the sheet, but should be able to understand what's going just based on the above.

• Hamlet · 09/24/12, 12:05 PM

More on secondary stats.
In the gear set in WC right now (~104k DPS, T14 bonus), the 8089 haste break adds about 400 DPS without DoC, about 1700 with. If I turn off T14 and drop haste to around the 5273 breakpoint, the breakpoint's worth about 1800 even without DoC (have to check on this difference at some point).

Since, in all other cases, haste comes in at around 0.3 DPS behind crit, you'd give up well over 1000 crit to reach a haste point even in the 400 DPS case (if that's even accurate), and it seems like you'd give up many thousands in other cases. In practice I think this means haste up to any accessible breakpoint is effectively the best secondary stat. I'm going to rewrite for now to account for that.

Furthermore, if you're always reforging haste and hit to certain levels, that means most excess stat points (such as excess hit) fall into the crit bucket. So excess hit is likely to actually be worth as much as crit, at least in the most common case, which in particular makes it better than half an Int. So it seems like the best summary of the stat priority will be:

Int >> haste (to breakpoint) > hit (to cap)* > crit = excess hit (reforged to crit) > half Int (gems) > haste > mastery

*hit cap vs. haste breakpoint is actually kind of weird since misses can mess with your Eclipse timing. But if you have just enough to points to hit one or the other, I'd probably pick the haste break and be slightly under hit until your next upgrade.

• Hamlet · 09/24/12, 1:21 PM

Updated OP for above thoughts on secondary stats. Note that WC is currently undervaluing high haste breakpoints because it's firmly casting DoTs every Eclipse, which causes some unrealistic clipping. Right now I'm working under the assumption that you basically initially treat haste as the best secondary and then pare down to a breakpoint.

Tell me if you at least think the current version is clear though, this is all getting slightly confusing with both haste and hit to worry about. If it's clear and very close to optimal I will probably try to stop obsessing over it (which is what I wanted to avoid) until information is a little more settled in my head.

Erdluf · 09/24/12, 1:22 PM

At the end of the OP (WrathCalcs discussion), it talks about number of points in a talent. That is obsolete.

Assuming the feral/HotW makes sense (and I don't know if it does), notes for a non-talented feral rotation:

Ferocious Bite damage varies from 25 to 50 energy. You only want to use it a 50 energy (or if it will kill your target anyway).
At high crit levels, you might want to FB at four combo points (needs research).
A cat rotation burns energy at 35-50 eps. You generate energy at 10 eps (in and out of form). When your energy is below 35 (meaning no cat move will work) do something else for a little bit (might be MF/SuF/Starsurge, might be Bear/Mangle/Lacerate/.../Mangle/Maul). The shifts will cost you some auto-attacks, but I'd be surprised if the specials in another form aren't a better option.
I know that untalented+ungeared (ironman experience), Pounce is a good use of energy. If that remains true when geared, Displacer Beast might have situational use.

• Hamlet · 09/24/12, 1:27 PM

Fixed the first. Yeah, I'd thought about recasting DoTs. 4 GCD's if you go into Moonkin to do it, but still probably ideal. Will add at least a note for now.

Narwhal6 · 09/24/12, 4:20 PM

Does anyone have a Pre-Raid BiS list? I know some classes are using Honor gear in their BiS list... are we one of those?

Zenbu · 09/24/12, 4:59 PM

on your use trinket macros, you have /use moonfire. pretty sure its supposed to be /cast moonfire. Any new players might be confused by that. ^^

Erdluf · 09/24/12, 5:54 PM

/use works for /cast and saves some macro space when you're pushing the macro character limit.

• Hamlet · 09/26/12, 9:54 AM

Has anyone checked whether Feline Swiftness stacks with boot enchants?

magojo · 09/26/12, 10:09 AM

It does, 108% with only boots, 115% without boots and FS and 124% (iirc) with both.