[Balance] Mists of Pandaria 5.2, Guide and Discussion [5.3 updates] - Page 20

Melador · 02/02/13, 10:32 PM

Why is the only case a damage mod on the boss? Why not letting you get another half-current-NV in because of a poorly-timed boss phase that wasn't great for NV (lots of movement, out of range of the boss for a bit, focusing environmental damage, dealing with short-lived adds, etc)?

I'm not saying it's not likely a nerf, but it's easy to be over-reliant on The Math rather than considering usage in actual boss fights.

Slippykins · 02/03/13, 1:10 AM

Originally Posted by Melador

Why is the only case a damage mod on the boss? Why not letting you get another half-current-NV in because of a poorly-timed boss phase that wasn't great for NV (lots of movement, out of range of the boss for a bit, focusing environmental damage, dealing with short-lived adds, etc)?

I'm not saying it's not likely a nerf, but it's easy to be over-reliant on The Math rather than considering usage in actual boss fights.

The way it works out is that, since the uptime is doubled but the effect is halved, pressing NV the second time is required to approach the damage you would have done pre-5.2. It's not a matter of "getting another NV in," because the maths already accounts for you pressing it that second time - if you don't, you drop even further into the NV nerf.

Balance damage has become very sinusoidal, peaking and dipping with eclipse, but also being extenuated by our new cooldowns. By stacking all our CDs together, they each multiply each others' effects, meaning we would get less out of them if they were used sequentially. Our "second press" of NV doesn't benefit from any of our other CDs, so that "burst phase" would be pretty weak overall. There's no way it can get to the damage of a full Incarnation/CA burst, and after thinking a bit on the damage mod scenario I spouted earlier, I don't think that would make a difference either.

If we're talking about sub-optimal DPS where we aren't using our CDs efficiently, or movement and other factors prohibit us from using them on CD, I still can't see the possibility of doing more damage - in fact, I see it more of a nerf, because if you delay the second NV any longer than 7-8 seconds, it wont be up in time for your "real" CD burst phase, and thus you'll be delayed even more.

Overall, I'm thinking HotW will be a good alternative to NV, once we have a look at the fights and see if any damage mod fights are in the 5.2 raid (Inc/NV benefit from damage mod fights moreso than the other talents). Also, when WrathCalcs is up-to-date with raid gear, I'll go poke my nose into fiddling with the talents on paper as well.

Melador · 02/03/13, 1:51 AM

Yeah, I guess my initial "flexibility is good" reaction is dwarfed by the desyncing with other cooldowns. They really should have halved/shortened all of them (or just left it alone).

Tuscarora · 02/03/13, 6:31 AM

Originally Posted by Melador

Why is the only case a damage mod on the boss? Why not letting you get another half-current-NV in because of a poorly-timed boss phase that wasn't great for NV (lots of movement, out of range of the boss for a bit, focusing environmental damage, dealing with short-lived adds, etc)?

I'm not saying it's not likely a nerf, but it's easy to be over-reliant on The Math rather than considering usage in actual boss fights.

In that case you should use the big CD round in the phase without movement.

If the fight is still so RNG that you can't plan your CDs in an optimal fashion, you'd still lose damage under most scenarios. It's the same reasoning we value crit for expected DPS (sometimes you crit more and sometimes you crit less but the law of large numbers prevails at the end). It is not easy to imagine an scenario where 1) you use cooldowns correctly (e.g. if there's a +dmg Mel'jarak-like phase you save your big CD round for that instead of the small NV) and 2) the new NV provides more dmg than the old one.

Then there's the issue of whether the old or the new NV feels better in terms of gameplay, but that's a different problem.

finnmaccool · 02/05/13, 7:14 AM

having trouble with a macro for balance:

#showtooltip Wrath
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0

/cast [nomod] StarSurge ;
/cast [nomod] Wrath;

/run UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1

/cast [mod:ctrl] Wrath;

---
idea behind this macro is that very often shooting stars procs RIGHT before pressing your hard nuke, but that your human reaction time isn't enough to switch which cast.
so this macro would try to use SS, and if it is on CD, then your normal nuke.

Also has the built in option of using a modifier NOT to use SS... for the cases that you are at 95 energy and don't want to enter eclipse just yet due to some mechanic or are one cast from eclipse and want the SS to get the benefit ect.

macro isn't working at all.. getting syntax errors - guessing it has to deal with the way i am doing [nomod] spell A;
can anyone please help me out here?
thanks.

Hamsda · 02/05/13, 7:35 AM

The error has nothing to do with the nomod, simply the fact that you are trying to cast two spells which trigger a GCD/have a cast time.
Even if Starsure is on CD the macro will try to cast it and return an error message like "spell is on cd", but it wont progress to the wrath line.
This only works for things that do not trigger a GCD (priest example but I think most people know it: Inner Fire macrod to PoH, because IF does not trigger a GCD).

Zantaz · 02/06/13, 8:55 AM

With regards to Tier 15, is the 2pc set bonus strong enough for us to break 4pc T14 for it once we have 2 pieces? Or will we be wanting to obtain the 4pc T15 before breaking 4pc T14?

finnmaccool · 02/07/13, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by finnmaccool

having trouble with a macro for balance:

#showtooltip Wrath
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0

/cast [nomod] StarSurge ;
/cast [nomod] Wrath;

/run UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1

/cast [mod:ctrl] Wrath;

---
idea behind this macro is that very often shooting stars procs RIGHT before pressing your hard nuke, but that your human reaction time isn't enough to switch which cast.
so this macro would try to use SS, and if it is on CD, then your normal nuke.
.

anyone have a suggestion of how to get a similar macro to what i want to do with the above Starsurge macro post?
can you mix [mod] and [cast sequence] ? perhaps turn every tap into a double tap?

Lazerdollarz · 02/07/13, 1:54 PM

You can't make macros play the game for you. The game is always going to try to cast Starsurge in that macro. It will never get to Wrath.

...simply the fact that you are trying to cast two spells which trigger a GCD/have a cast time.
Even if Starsurge is on CD the macro will try to cast it and return an error message like "spell is on cd", but it wont progress to the wrath line.
This only works for things that do not trigger a GCD.

Lethargic · 02/07/13, 3:20 PM

I have a question regarding the 4-piece tier bonus.

With it equipped, our haste breakpoint becomes 3706. However, in mostly heroic gear levels, since haste is second highest after crit, we are able to get back up to the 5273 haste the non 4-piece tier bonus requires.

The question I have is if I have heroic offset, for example gloves from Wind Lord, would it be better to use those and keep the 2-piece tier bonus if we're not sacrificing crit to keep above the 5273 breakpoint?

In trying this, I was able to gain almost 1000 crit while keeping around the same haste level. Of course if the 8089 4-piece breakpoint is something we're able to obtain then this is out of the question. Just wondering anyone's thoughts on this?

Aberlid · 02/10/13, 5:17 PM

Hey guys, it appears that I am the good news bearer:

DPS Tuning Adjustments
- Balance - Increased Starfire, Wrath and Starsurge by 9%.

Mind that this is for discussion purposes only. It's not the final number, but at least it means that they know that there's a problem.

At this point we can come in with a constructive feedback and try to push this change for the actual live patch.

Source:
PTR Class and Set Bonus Issues, Part II - Forums - World of Warcraft

Edit.
Missed a sentence.

♦ Tecton · 02/11/13, 6:59 AM

Back of an envelope figures, I'd say that's about a 6% single target DPS increase then?

gannonjf · 02/11/13, 2:56 PM

Originally Posted by Tecton

Back of an envelope figures, I'd say that's about a 6% single target DPS increase then?

Is that taking the NV nerf into account?

• Hamlet · 02/11/13, 3:14 PM

Originally Posted by gannonjf

Is that taking the NV nerf into account?

No, but that's not going to be anywhere near 6% (and even whatever it winds up being, will be somewhat ameliorated if people swap to HotW more often anyway).

The 9% buff should actually be even more than 6% DPS--nukes are quite a large portion of our DPS now (although the spreadsheet overestimates this somewhat, since our timer bursts emphasize Starfall and DoTs more than the base rotation).

Melador · 02/11/13, 4:05 PM

Definitely helps, though I'd personally like to see more of a focus on damage while moving -- there's only so much you can do hoping for/holding onto SS procs.