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Old 10/05/12, 4:05 PM   #31
Jazdia
Von Kaiser
 
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Night Elf Druid
 
Mannoroth
Originally Posted by Hamlet View Post
A ballpark is fine really, I'm probably not doing a whole detailed model of this. Although anything exact you have handy when you get home would still be interesting.

We can't actually cast Rip as balance spec, just Rake, Mangle, FB, Swipe, Maim, and Pounce.

So questions
1) FB will do double that if I spend 50 energy right?
2) All physical damage that's not a bleed (so anything that's not Rake) is reduced by 30% or so by boss armor?
3) Is there still some interaction where Rake buffs Mangle or vice versa or something like that?
4) So each non-crit white hit should be (weaponDPS + AP/14), before armor?

- Yes, FB can consume up to 25 energy to do up to 100% more damage. Thus if you have 30 energy when you cast it, it will do 120% damage while if you cast it at 50 energy it will do 200% damage.

- All physical damage is mitigated by armor, bleed damage is physical but is treated as a different form of damage that is not mitigated by armor.

- No, there is no longer any interaction between Mangle and Rake. Mangle no longer buffs bleeds. Swipe, however, is increased by 20% on bleeding targets.

- That is correct. Weapon dps = weapon damage + AP/14. Since our swing timer is always 1s base, weapon dps = weapon damage at 0 haste.

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Old 10/05/12, 4:11 PM   #32
 Hamlet
<Druid Trainer>
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
Nice. That's probably good enough detail; I just have to go back and figure out how this handles caster weapons and one-handers.

Have you guys looked into HotW for Moonfire/Wrath spam at all?


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Old 10/05/12, 4:24 PM   #33
Jazdia
Von Kaiser
 
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Night Elf Druid
 
Mannoroth
Originally Posted by Hamlet View Post
Nice. That's probably good enough detail; I just have to go back and figure out how this handles caster weapons and one-handers.

Have you guys looked into HotW for Moonfire/Wrath spam at all?
Moonfire is horrible, because we gain nature spellpower, not arcane/all spellpower.
Wrathspam with HotW is currently our highest dps spec. We can bomb out 150k-250k+ wraths every 1.6 seconds with haste reforging for 45 seconds.

In fact, I've been running 100k iteration sims on various priority lists to get stat distributions and I just finished 15 minutes ago! I'm in the process of updating the original post. Yay for being able to simulate on machines with 64 cores, designed to run proton therapy simulations!

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Old 10/05/12, 4:42 PM   #34
a civilian
Piston Honda
 
Worgen Druid
 
Sargeras
Originally Posted by Hamlet View Post
4) So each non-crit white hit should be (weaponDPS + AP/14), before armor?
Non-crit non-glance. Glancing blows still exist, and unless they've changed, against raid bosses they occur with ~24% chance (on swing) and do 75% (?) damage.

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Old 10/05/12, 7:19 PM   #35
Leafkiller
Piston Honda
 
Worgen Druid
 
Stormrage
Originally Posted by Hamlet View Post
Coming over Moonkin thread--I'm trying to figure out some basic info about HotW DPS. I've figured out what my Agility and other stats are with it active, but I need to know how that translates into damage of Mangle, Rake, FB, and white DPS. I see the OP by and large references SimCraft for the underlying math--is anyone around here the person who manages the Cat SimCraft and/or knows the basic formulae for determining the damage these abilities do based on your attack power?
aggixx/Pawkets is the primary maintainer of the simulationcaft script for ferals (Tinderhoof and I have been working with him on it, but he is doing the bulk of the work and all of checkins). He does have a working implementation of HotW checked into the code base with the exception of weapon swapping, so you will have to do the trick of adding spell power to some item to test this.

There was a new release of simulationcraft today (505-2) that should include his changes. I noticed that it does not have HotW support in the action priority list (it is using a DoC rotation). I will ask aggixx to share his HotW action priority list.

@Hamlet - If you want to talk to aggixx about his HotW work and how HotW might impact Balance, here is a link to the primary thread where we discuss feral/simulationcraft stuff: The Fluid Druid - View topic - Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion.

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Old 10/05/12, 9:04 PM   #36
Andanas
Glass Joe
 
Worgen Druid
 
Farstriders
I don't know if it's just me, as I have not seen anyone else mention it, but in your glyphs section, you have Glyph of Moonfire listed, although it does link to Glyph of Savagery.

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Old 10/05/12, 9:28 PM   #37
Jazdia
Von Kaiser
 
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Night Elf Druid
 
Mannoroth
Originally Posted by Andanas View Post
I don't know if it's just me, as I have not seen anyone else mention it, but in your glyphs section, you have Glyph of Moonfire listed, although it does link to Glyph of Savagery.
As mentioned in the text above it, go with the tooltips, the wowhead item id cache is outdated.

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Old 10/06/12, 12:06 AM   #38
Hoedown
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Night Elf Druid
 
Shattrath
Hitting our first raid tomorrow and curious as to what people are finding vs raid bosses. Hit and expertise cap or go with what simcraft says and ignore those caps?

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Old 10/06/12, 4:30 AM   #39
Montecorex
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Aerie Peak
Originally Posted by Jazdia View Post
Moonfire is horrible, because we gain nature spellpower, not arcane/all spellpower.
Wrathspam with HotW is currently our highest dps spec. We can bomb out 150k-250k+ wraths every 1.6 seconds with haste reforging for 45 seconds.

In fact, I've been running 100k iteration sims on various priority lists to get stat distributions and I just finished 15 minutes ago! I'm in the process of updating the original post. Yay for being able to simulate on machines with 64 cores, designed to run proton therapy simulations!
So is there any way you can post how the stat weights change with and without wrath? I was assuming that mastery would still be the best but haste is better for that 45 second cd twice a fight? This is very believable I am just looking for whatever piece of evidence lead you to this.

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Old 10/06/12, 9:47 AM   #40
Erdluf
Great Tiger
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Echo Isles
Mangle = 400% weapon?

Not seeing it in the log linked from http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t130885-...5/#post2202817 . Melee 12k, Mangle 31k. Am I misunderstanding that formula? Is it possible that Mangle gets 4x your weapon DPS, before AP?

Also, does the direct damage from Rake match the tick damage (and ignore armor)? It looks like it in that log, but bamfkinhero had a log where ticks did significantly more damage. Is there a bleed buff I'm not seeing?

Edit: Bamfkinhero log linked from [Balance] WrathCalcs . 58k rake hits, 70k ticks. Edit2: Looking at the log in more detail, his damage has some pretty wide variation.

Last edited by Erdluf : 10/06/12 at 10:04 AM.

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Old 10/06/12, 1:29 PM   #41
 Hamlet
<Druid Trainer>
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
edit: Oy, had some more tests trying to work out white DPS. The part nobody mentioned above was that Cat Form doubles white damage :P .

Beyond that, it looks like HotW doesn't change weapon DPS in any way beyond the AP increase.


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Old 10/06/12, 5:26 PM   #42
Phaidon
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Festung der Stürme (EU)
Hey everyone,

I was trying to figure out the stat values for reforging for my gear (ilvl around 460, so basically for pre-raid gear, spec'd HotW and SotF), but ran into some problems with Simcraft. Probably because the details are pretty much rocket science to me (even though I thought I read that HotW was correctly implemented in the newest version of Simcraft?), I couldn't get it to use HotW actively for wrath-spam (preferably with swapping weapons), and I don't understand the mechanics well enough to just feel safe in assuming that the values will be (close to) the same as those for ilvl 509 BiS-gear in the main post. So I hope someone can help me out: does it, at pre-raid gear, pay off to go for haste (which, I believe, would generally suit me well) > crit > mastery = hit = exp (not dumping hit because it helps me not mess up my rotation)?

Thanks in advance.

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Old 10/06/12, 9:51 PM   #43
aggixx
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Tauren Druid
 
Hyjal
You should be able to get a hold of me through EJ just fine as well. I wasn't aware there was any meaningful feral discussion going on over here so I hadn't really checked.

@Jazdia: I'd be interested in seeing what profile you used to run HotW tests, as your scale factors seem to be somewhat (although not drastically) different than what I've gotten.

This is the profile I've been using for T14H BiS HotW: #!./simc chardev=1709 name="Druid_Feral_T14H_HotW" origin="unknown" level - Pastebin.com

And here's a 25k iteration scale factor run of above profile: Simulationcraft Results
More iterations could be done as some of the stats are too close to each other to really be distinguishable (such as if Crit is actually better than Haste at a certain point).

Last edited by aggixx : 10/06/12 at 10:10 PM.

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Old 10/07/12, 12:18 AM   #44
Montecorex
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Aerie Peak
Originally Posted by Hoedown View Post
Hitting our first raid tomorrow and curious as to what people are finding vs raid bosses. Hit and expertise cap or go with what simcraft says and ignore those caps?
Typically this is a preference thing when the stat weights are as close together as they are now for the pre-raid gear. I am going with close to caps to reduce rng but am up in the air when it comes to haste vs mastery for HotW.

Last edited by Montecorex : 10/07/12 at 12:23 AM.

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Old 10/08/12, 4:01 AM   #45
Smoketreez
Glass Joe
 
Worgen Druid
 
Stormrage
Elegon:

Instead of opening with bleeds you should start the fight with an Intellect pre-pot and weapon swap + Heart of the Wild, the timing works out so that the first Total Annihilation happens as Heart of the Wild runs out, losing no damage uptime.

After resetting your stacks you can go onto Elegon with full cat cooldowns netting yourself way more damage.

In the final phase (sub 35%) you should reset your stacks and Heart of the Wild with an Intellect potion for optimal damage as your raid should be popping Bloodlust/Heroism at this time, and again the timing works out so that you can go back in cat and blow all of your cooldowns again.

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Last edited by Smoketreez : 10/08/12 at 4:12 AM.

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