[Feral-Cat] Mists of Pandaria 5.2 - Page 7

Abranor · 11/08/12, 8:18 PM

Right, that's what I thought. I've been posting, reading, and listening to the team waffle podcasts over at the fluid druid to study up and thought that smelled fishy. Once I finally got home, I ran some sims in my gear using your latest script, in my current gear I'm 3100 DPS behind in my HotW build. That is worth the oh crap coverage I've gotten with HotW in our 10 man raids to me right now.

hoopitup_2003 · 11/12/12, 8:57 PM

So I just started playing feral again and was messing around on the training dummies last night. I realized I hadn't swapped out my glyphs and found that after doing so Ovale is suggesting nothing but FF, Shred and Savage Roar, does anyone have a fix for this? Also, is Leafkiller's script included in the addon or do I need to copy it in from somewhere else?

Jazdia · 11/13/12, 9:50 AM

Originally Posted by hoopitup_2003

So I just started playing feral again and was messing around on the training dummies last night. I realized I hadn't swapped out my glyphs and found that after doing so Ovale is suggesting nothing but FF, Shred and Savage Roar, does anyone have a fix for this? Also, is Leafkiller's script included in the addon or do I need to copy it in from somewhere else?

Generally you can find his latest script over at The Fluid Druid's forums, and his script is included in Nerien's Ovale Scripts but not in the Ovale addon itself I don't believe.

Zereo · 11/15/12, 2:36 PM

The Symbiosis chart shows Holy/Disc Priests gaining Entangling Roots, but they actually gain Cyclone.

baver · 11/28/12, 7:56 PM

Anyone got some numbers how much dps increase for the new dancing steel change? Was checking last kill on Imperial Vizier Zor'lok hc and only had 9.2% uptime. But this week i got a 65%.

Zargouhl · 12/02/12, 5:13 PM

I have a question regarding mangle vs shred. The tooltip for mangle says 500% dmg, the tooltip for shred says 500%+20% on bleeding. So that's 500% vs 600%, but mangle costs 35 energy vs shred's 40 energy.

So unless I'm missing something, for the same energy you'd get:

7 shreds, let's say 10 dmg per shred*7*1.2=84 dmg
8 mangles, 10*8=80 dmg

So that's exactly a 5% difference in damage, but not factoring in the extra CPs you'd get from the extra mangle.

Now I mainly PvP so from my perspective I don't see why(assuming these numbers are correct) I'd ever shred since the positioning requirements of shred do become an issue, but even for PvE once factoring in the extra CP from the mangles it seems like they could be virtually identical?

Some clarity would be great if somebody can help me out, thank you!

Erdluf · 12/02/12, 8:24 PM

If you really want to know the PvE answer, you should probably use simulationcraft, and see what happens you change shred to mangle. Let us know what results you get.

In this thread on the US official forums, someone said shred sims at 4% higher. I have no idea if that was factual. The argument is that in PvE you have enought CP to maintain SR and Rip, so extra CP aren't worth very much.

It seems pretty clear that if you have clearcasting, and Thrash has a long duration, Shred is where you want to spend it.

Two advantages for PvP could be:

1) A bit more burst.
2) You don't want to attack from the front (wasting energy on parry or block)

My gut feeling is that CP are harder to come by in PvP, and are also more valuable because of Predatory Swiftness. However, I haven't PvP'd as feral in MoP, so my opinion doesn't mean much.

Zargouhl · 12/02/12, 10:19 PM

Thanks, I really appreciate the answer. I didn't think about clearcasting so using shred there definitely makes sense. I just wanted to confirm that I wasn't missing something mathematically.

Knowme · 12/03/12, 5:14 AM

In a fight like Windlord and Amber Shaper heroic (HoF 4 and 5) what do you prefer? Where there is a + dmg on the Boss.

Incarnation + NV or HotW/SotF ??

Windlord -> Bomb Phase at the beginning / HotW Hurricane and Bloodlust Wrath Spam after an add die.

Amber Shaper -> HotW Wrath Spam during phase 3 or 3 Times Incarnation/NV.

Under normal circumstances iam playing with SotF and DoC because HotW is at the most fight behind (for me).

kind regards

Montecorex · 12/03/12, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by Leafkiller

No.

Unfortunately the most current feral script is not checked into Simulationcraft. It can be found here: The Fluid Druid - View topic - Experimental simulationcraft script

Last time I measured, passive HotW was about 3.8% behind DoC in the most recent simulations. Also the sims show that using Wrath spam is not a dps loss - it is close to dps neutral and it is certainly an option when fight mechanics favor it. Given that in general we are not doing Patchwerk fights, it is not always possible to have DoC procs lined up with Rips, which makes the gap between DoC and HotW even closer. Neither aggixx nor I have done sim work on more complex fights so I can't tell you by how much. If you want an idea of how close together the abilities are, run some LFRs using each one on different fights. NV is also pretty close, simming slightly better than HotW (0.3%), but by far less than the usual variance you get from RNG (which is generally +-5% on any given fight).

Thanks for posting on this Leafkiller I have been wondering for a while myself about this issue; generally speaking DoC gets sort of tricky in fights where there are a lot of target switches. For example, Heroic Ambershaper - my guild's strat involves the melee switching to the vehicles then to the boss then back to the vehicle then dps the ambers, I find myself with a lot of wasted combo points, and DoC procs that are being used to help burn things down more effectively rather than a full duration rake or rip.

All that being said I am very interested in being able to use HotW for this type of thing with a solid burn phase like Ambershaper's I'm sure I could see similar numbers; if not a little better. However, I am wondering if weapon swapping is still a must, and if so, for you to say that HotW and DoC aren't technically that far apart what level of weapon would be required in the swap to produce these numbers? Is dancing steel or jade spirit better for this? I am still using a 450 ilvl Scenario staff with windsong on it (for my spell power staff that is) in combination with my Gao-Rei, Staff of the Legendary Protector - Game Guide - World of Warcraft. I am still progressing and most staves that drop are obviously being used by casters first. I would just like some general perspective on weapon swapping for HotW and how much that affects what you said about it being some what close to DoC.

Seles · 12/03/12, 4:04 PM

I've personally used HoTW on virtually every heroic progression encounter up to and including Sha.

Inevitably, there's always going to be some mechanic that reduces the value of DoC with target swaps and complicated avoidance mechanics, or increases the value of HoTW in the form of an intensive aoe or healing phase.

Dancing steel seems to be the best weapon enchant for the caster stat stick but a 5-10k enchant on a 450 blue is sort of pricey. Also, definitely not worth wrathing with that large of a weapon difference. I have a 504 (2x upgraded gao-rei) melee weapon and a 502 caster weapon and I don't bother using wrath. And yes, weapon swapping is still a must.

Knowme · 12/03/12, 4:35 PM

Originally Posted by Seles

I've personally used HoTW on virtually every heroic progression encounter up to and including Sha.

Inevitably, there's always going to be some mechanic that reduces the value of DoC with target swaps and complicated avoidance mechanics, or increases the value of HoTW in the form of an intensive aoe or healing phase.

Dancing steel seems to be the best weapon enchant for the caster stat stick but a 5-10k enchant on a 450 blue is sort of pricey. Also, definitely not worth wrathing with that large of a weapon difference. I have a 504 (2x upgraded gao-rei) melee weapon and a 502 caster weapon and I don't bother using wrath. And yes, weapon swapping is still a must.

On every fight? Including Mel'jarak and Un'sok?

Can you please tell me how much dmg you do with wrath? (on dummy)

I just got the Staff of trembling Will but dont come out ahead of sotf/doc....

regards

Seles · 12/03/12, 5:05 PM

Our first kill of heroic Windlord Mel'jarak I used Nature's Vigil on because we used a strat that resulted in me having cds available for the 1st and 3rd dps phases, but we have since switched to a more controlled strat - stacking burn phases back to back and I have since reverted to HoTW. Every other first kill I have used HoTW. I do see eventually where I'd go DoC for farm and dps ranks, but ... that's pretty far down my list of priorities.

I think I'd do about 170k damage to a target dummy on average counting procs per wrath. I guess that's roughly 90-100k dps, but the last time I hit a target dummy was months ago.

I know that HoTW doesn't sim as high as DoC, just as I know there is no realistic situation where, on a progression fight, you're able to pull off an optimum DoC rotation while avoiding the emperor dance/attenuation/dreadspray, etc. That, coupled with rapid target swaps in many setups, along with heavy aoe/healing phases that you can optimize with hotw hurricane/tranq, makes HoTW a far more versatile and solid raiding choice over an on-paper 3% damage increase of DoC.

Knowme · 12/04/12, 2:04 AM

Besides some "plus dmg on Boss" fights where I'am using incarnation+nv I'am not come out ahead with hotw against DoC.

Tested on some Mogu Bosses like Gara'Jal and Elegon. On Gara'jal where we pop everything at the beginning I do much more DPS with DoC. I can compare with the other classes but with wrath spam I'am so much behind.

I realy dont understand.

Numbers are looking the same for me on a dummy.Only difference is my numbers are right now yours month ago ^^
I watched your Elegon Movie at release and saw some serious 800k + Crits. My highest was 500k(prenerf).

kind regards

Montecorex · 12/04/12, 4:25 PM

Originally Posted by Seles

Our first kill of heroic Windlord Mel'jarak I used Nature's Vigil on because we used a strat that resulted in me having cds available for the 1st and 3rd dps phases, but we have since switched to a more controlled strat - stacking burn phases back to back and I have since reverted to HoTW. Every other first kill I have used HoTW. I do see eventually where I'd go DoC for farm and dps ranks, but ... that's pretty far down my list of priorities.

I think I'd do about 170k damage to a target dummy on average counting procs per wrath. I guess that's roughly 90-100k dps, but the last time I hit a target dummy was months ago.

I know that HoTW doesn't sim as high as DoC, just as I know there is no realistic situation where, on a progression fight, you're able to pull off an optimum DoC rotation while avoiding the emperor dance/attenuation/dreadspray, etc. That, coupled with rapid target swaps in many setups, along with heavy aoe/healing phases that you can optimize with hotw hurricane/tranq, makes HoTW a far more versatile and solid raiding choice over an on-paper 3% damage increase of DoC.

Well thanks so much for lending you're time to help educate me some more on this. Ironically enough, you are the druid who inspired this question; so to hear you're reasons directly from you really cleared things up for me. I have gone through some of you're logs and noticed that, as you said, you don't bother to wrath spam. I was wondering if that was an issue with you having a good enough weapon, or if it was a dps loss to wrath spam. I absolutely agree with the mindset you used in how you're talents interact with the raid and not just a selfish dps gain. I feel like this thread, and theorycrafting in general, have lost sight of the ultimate goal of optimization - KILLING BOSSES. Thank you again, and good luck in the next tier Dought.