Feral Megathread - Page 105

wuffles · 01/27/08, 3:37 PM

Originally Posted by Astrylian

Hey all.

Rawr b10 has been released. Rawr now includes Cat support. All your feral theorycrafting in one handy app.

The Druid Wiki � Rawr

That's really awesome, thank you

seminarca · 01/28/08, 3:57 AM

Thanks for the update Astrylian. Feature request: while comparing item upgrades I'm sure you'd be using some sort of equivalency point system to add up stats giving each an appropriate weight. Can you have a tab where we can read these values for all appropriate stats? (e.g. so we can use them in mods like Pawn or in our own spreadsheets)

Good to see Toskk's work in rawr. rawr is a superb application (well written as well, I went over its code for one release which included it in the zip), thanks so much for all your continuing work on it.

Astrylian · 01/28/08, 4:19 AM

Originally Posted by seminarca

Thanks for the update Astrylian. Feature request: while comparing item upgrades I'm sure you'd be using some sort of equivalency point system to add up stats giving each an appropriate weight. Can you have a tab where we can read these values for all appropriate stats? (e.g. so we can use them in mods like Pawn or in our own spreadsheets)

Yep, that's planned for b11. Keep in mind that it's not going to be as accurate, since it'll include the value of whatever item you're considering replacing, and it's only for 1 stat point, so the more a potential item has of a stat that scales in any way, the more inaccurate it'll be. All that said, it'll give good ballpark #s.

Good to see Toskk's work in rawr. rawr is a superb application (well written as well, I went over its code for one release which included it in the zip), thanks so much for all your continuing work on it.

Oh my! That reminds me! I forgot to include the source for b10 in the b10.zip! I'll post a new .zip so if anyone wondered what happened to the source, they can just redownload it. I'll try to get that posted sometime tomorrow.

Garanthir · 01/28/08, 10:57 AM

Thanks so much for this great tool!

One quick question, when valuing Armor Penetration does it take into account the total armor pen. of your current gear or just the one item related to the AC value of the boss independant of other armor pen equipment you have?

Hope that makes sense.

Astrylian · 01/28/08, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by Garanthir

Thanks so much for this great tool!

One quick question, when valuing Armor Penetration does it take into account the total armor pen. of your current gear or just the one item related to the AC value of the boss independant of other armor pen equipment you have?

Hope that makes sense.

Total on your gear and in debuffs to the target (sunder, faerie fire, curse of recklessness).

EDIT: To be more specific, it values Armor Penetration the same way it values everything else:

Rawr doesn't use any form of equivalency of the different stats. Whatever calculation model you're using (Cat in this case) is given a complete character profile (items, gems, enchants, buffs, target debuffs, etc.). The model combines that all into whatever stats it uses (ap, crit%, hit%, procs, etc.), and then evaluates those stats to come up with one or more ratings (one for cats, DPS. Two for bears, Mit/Surv). Then the whole process is repeated, except for a character with that item slot empty (though keeping the enchant stats, of course). The value of an item is then defined as the difference between the total ratings with it equipped, and with the slot empty.

For example, if you're comparing two chestpieces... With ChestpieceA equipped, your whole character evaluates to 110,000 DPS Points. With ChestpieceB equipped, your whole character evaluates to 113,000 DPS Points. With no chestpiece equipped, your whole character evaluates to 95000. Chestpiece A would be worth 15,000 points, and Chestpiece B would be worth 18,000 points. This system ensures that everything is completely accurate to the model, that piece that you're replacing don't skew the value of new pieces, and that items themselves don't skew their value.

An example of this accuracy: If you used a system that was based on equivalency points, the simplest calculations can be very skewed. Suppose you were comparing a Delicate Living Ruby to a Delicate Crimson Spinel. 8agi vs 10agi. In an equivalency model, the Spinel has 25% more agi, so would be worth 25% more. But that's not the case; agi scales, so those last 2 points of agi in the Spinel are worth significantly more than the first two. Using a total comparison system like Rawr, you'd see that the Spinel is worth probably 30 to 35% more than the Ruby, depending on how much agi you've already got, and how agi scales for you.

Garanthir · 01/28/08, 12:50 PM

Excellent, thank you for the explanation.

mesh7 · 01/28/08, 3:41 PM

For people who aggressively try to do the double mangle stack on there rips, how successful are you guys? I've been trying it recently and I've manged to get it off very rarely--maybe 1 out of every 8-9 times.

Sahrokh · 01/28/08, 4:17 PM

About the very high DPS shown on some WWS:

You may also go check the WWS support forums.
Not all the submitted reports are true.
Some are downright cheated (to push the guild reputation up), others are simply tainted by the "crazy clock" WWS issue.

When you see 2700 DPS rogues plus 1900 DPS druids at the same time, triple check that it's not a reported report (i.e. the top ones at Teron are).

Sandyr · 01/28/08, 4:54 PM

How exactly does this bug with the WWS reports work? What exactly is a reported report and where do you check to see that this is the case?

dukes · 01/28/08, 5:31 PM

The Lamissa report (this one) looks pretty authentic to me - generally the really obvious things are the time being screwy (3 minutes seems alright for teron imo), DPS being more than it should be (5 mil/180 seconds = ~28k RDPS which is correct), or more than the normal amount of damage done to the boss (teron is 4.9-5mil total).

What can screw Teron is including the ghost, which that doesn't, or including two peoples logs which differ in timestamp (which is why you get ridiculous DPS sometimes). Best thing to check is the total damage done and charts->raids and mobs->pets-> and see if vengeful spirit is there.

What you have to remember is that in a fight that only lasts 3 minutes, bloodlust is up for a relatively large percentage of the time, same with drums and any other cooldown, so it skews the fight heavily in favour of those classes with cooldowns/those groups that take heavy advantage of cooldowns. It also looks like they got very lucky with shades, which is why that DPS is so sick.

Cyandire · 01/28/08, 5:52 PM

Originally Posted by mesh7

For people who aggressively try to do the double mangle stack on there rips, how successful are you guys? I've been trying it recently and I've manged to get it off very rarely--maybe 1 out of every 8-9 times.

What was your DPS rotation out of interest (throwing in a vague timeline to would help greatly)? And by "aggressively" trying to get these double stacks does it hinder your normal cycle and overall dps?

So by my understanding they only occur when you can override a previous rip with a more powerful one i.e. refreshing it with a 5 point or trinketed rip in the last second of mangle then applying another mangle immediately before the first tick. Please correct me if i've misunderstood the concept but it sounds like this is very situational like getting lucky with Crits. and T4/OOC procs?

Sandyr · 01/28/08, 8:54 PM

Originally Posted by dukes

The Lamissa report (this one) looks pretty authentic to me

I'm still a little bit... unsure about how correct it can be. Look a bit onward past the Teron Kill to their Council kill. Granted, my guild isn't nearly as well geared overall, but Council dieing in 5 min 45 sec seems a bit fast, and Ohhnoes (mutilate rogue) being able to put out 2285 dps on that fight with 1 heroism and no drum buffs seems a bit unlikely. Am I out of line with this assumption...?

Boevis · 01/29/08, 12:42 AM

Originally Posted by Sandyr

I'm still a little bit... unsure about how correct it can be. Look a bit onward past the Teron Kill to their Council kill. Granted, my guild isn't nearly as well geared overall, but Council dieing in 5 min 45 sec seems a bit fast, and Ohhnoes (mutilate rogue) being able to put out 2285 dps on that fight with 1 heroism and no drum buffs seems a bit unlikely. Am I out of line with this assumption...?

At the time he wasn't mutilate, he was Combat Swords, and I see 3 Drums and a Heroism.

For Cyandire:
:00 Rip
:01 Mangle
.
.
:12 -Rip
:12:01 to :12:99 <- Reapply Rip Here!!!
:13 -Mangle
:13:01 to :13:99 <- Reapply Mangle Here!!!

I believe this is how it works, and because you have <1 sec window to reapply rip is why people tend to have difficulty replicating it, even with the new "build in stopcasting" you're still looking at an average .3 seconds latency + reaction time on your reapply.

Tasonir · 01/29/08, 3:02 AM

Took me a minute to follow Boevis' explanation, so if anyone else is unclear, here's my version.

When you rip, there's two seconds from when you apply the rip to when it first ticks. Those are the two seconds you have to manipulate. You want to have a mangle up when you apply the rip, but that will fade within those two seconds (usually one second in). Then, apply a second mangle before the first tick of rip, and it will take both mangles.

That said this is still somewhat difficult to do, and you aren't going to get it every single time, but you should be able to get a few on most stationary boss fights.

Farstrider · 01/29/08, 4:38 AM

Quick question. How much AP do you guys in late BT tend to tank mobs with? I'm usually above 4k AP on trash, but my full crit immune set is still a bit behind that, maybe more like 2,800-3,000. I'm wondering whether it's actually practical to try and get this up quite a bit?