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Old 01/30/08, 9:59 AM   #1606
Ducimus
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
Earthen Ring
/cast !Cat Form

This will recast cat form regardless of what form you're in. It will not shift you if you don't have enough mana, or if you're currently within the GCD. The exclamation point is needed to tell the macro to cast the spell, rather than toggle it. Similar to a hunters macro /castsequence Steady Shot, !Auto Shot.

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Old 01/30/08, 10:06 AM   #1607
Tinweasele
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Firetree
Originally Posted by Farstrider View Post
Yes, I realise all of that, and I don't have any threat generation issues, I just asked a question that I was interested in. The point being that I am interested to know if anyone actually breaks the point where swipe>lacerate even on a single target. I am at that point in my 5 man/trash gear (i.e. around 4000AP) but not in my crit immune gear for tanking a boss.
The short answer is yes, its possible. Amazingly easily actually. Currently in SSC/TK gear without the T6 set bonus i can get up to 225 non crit swipes. According to some theory crafting done before i believe the magic number is 220 average damage on swipe.

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Old 01/30/08, 11:58 AM   #1608
Farstrider
Back in teh house
 
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Farrstrider
Tauren Druid
 
No WoW Account (EU)
Well lacerate is 235 threat. So 235 average damage on swipe. You must be wearing pretty much full dps gear if you are averaging 225 swipes in tier 5 gear. DR is of course, as Dukes points out, the key - on a low armour boss you'll reach it a lot quicker. Anyway thanks for the comments - the 4pcTier6 bonus was something I hadn't really thought about, but I'm probably a week or 2 away from that at the moment.

<Fric> I think the only kind of gay buttsex I'd enjoy on any level would be assraping a smug hipster douchebag (also possibly a roid head and/or fratboy/Jersey Shore cast member)
<Zyla> If there's gonna be a dick in the room besides my own, i'd rather it have to be my brother's. You know that kinda sounds bad all typed out like that,

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Old 01/30/08, 12:24 PM   #1609
Ghoselle
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Earthen Ring
Leo is completely tankable by a feral. Its possible to put together a gear set without any badge gear -- but the badge gear is easier. If you want a non-badge set, there is a craftable cloth chest and the aldor rep crafted belt/boots/legs. Fill in with a couple green pieces and a head enchant. Its entirely reasonable to be at 19k+ health buffed and capped in FR, using crafted gear, greens, a chromatic flask and a paladin aura. With that said, the badge loot is a bit better. And the badge chest is the clear first badge piece to buy. I like using 2 piece of T4 for the extra rage generation. I use my best DPS weapon for threat generation.

One trick I like for the pick up is to try to moonfire him while he is whirlwinding if he'll go to demon phase mid whirlwind. If he isn't, I try to leave a rip ticking and shift to bear form right before the demon phase starts. Either one is a little extra initial threat and sometimes help with faster pickups.

Ghoselle.
Feral Druid.

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Old 01/30/08, 1:09 PM   #1610
dukes
Bald Bull
 
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Dukes
Tauren Druid
 
No WoW Account (EU)
Originally Posted by falkon2 View Post
You've become forgetful in your old age! :P
Whut!? RoS has ridiculously low armour which makes swipe do more damage than lacerate - the fact you don't tank it in the normal way doesn't matter :p Also, can someone confirm if you need /cancelform if you have auto-switch turned off but use !Cat rather than just Cat?

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Old 01/30/08, 1:38 PM   #1611
Sokia
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Skywall
Originally Posted by dukes View Post
Also, can someone confirm if you need /cancelform if you have auto-switch turned off but use !Cat rather than just Cat?
"/cast !Cat Form" will put you into cat form (or powershift, if you're already in cat form) without a /cancelform no matter the setting of the Secure ability toggle. At this point, the only macros I have /cancelform in are macros which use items while in caster form before entering a form.

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Old 01/30/08, 1:44 PM   #1612
mesh7
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Alexstrasza (EU)
testing double mangle debuffs

While trying the double mangle debuff "bug" on mobs, i noticed something that didn't make sense. When I ripped during the last second of mangle, that rip acted as if it had one mangle debuff for the next 12secs, even though none was up. If you then proceeded to throw up a mangle, (didn't matter if a few rips ticks went by), then the rip would receive the "double" mangle debuff.

This shows that the bug is solely based on landing rip during that last 1/2 second of a mangle and somehow the rip gets the debuff for the next 12 seconds as well. Is this correct or a different bug altogether?

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Old 01/30/08, 1:47 PM   #1613
Arkenphal
Don Flamenco
 
Tauren Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
...

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Old 01/30/08, 2:49 PM   #1614
dukes
Bald Bull
 
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Dukes
Tauren Druid
 
No WoW Account (EU)
Originally Posted by mesh7 View Post
While trying the double mangle debuff "bug" on mobs, i noticed something that didn't make sense. When I ripped during the last second of mangle, that rip acted as if it had one mangle debuff for the next 12secs, even though none was up. If you then proceeded to throw up a mangle, (didn't matter if a few rips ticks went by), then the rip would receive the "double" mangle debuff.

This shows that the bug is solely based on landing rip during that last 1/2 second of a mangle and somehow the rip gets the debuff for the next 12 seconds as well. Is this correct or a different bug altogether?
I really think you need to re-read the last two pages of this thread.

Edit: in order of posts, over the last 3 pages (I have 50 posts/page), from the start when someone asked with 3 explanations following it from different people.

Originally Posted by Pherox View Post
But sometimes when instancing and raiding I'm seeing redicilously amplified rip-ticks.
Anyone else encountered this yet? And anyone have any clue to why it can happen?
Originally Posted by Torik View Post
I know what it is... It's a mange bug it was from the version 2.0
Some times you can get double mangle bonus on bleeds (damaga*1.3*1.3)

To look like it works best way to see - go skettis and find elite trees go bear form and:
1) make 5x lacerates and write down the bleeed damage number
2) add mangle look it = damage*1.3
3) wait it all wears off and now add mangle and wait until it 2-0.5 sec left for mangle debuff to wear off and now start lacereting get 5x lacerates and WOOT no mangle debuff but it tics for (damage*1.3) now add mangle and WOOOOT (damage*1.3*1.3)

To have it you must be the only druid so mangle debuff can wear off, in cat you can some times see this bug becouse of rip GCD mangle - standart damage order, if in next 12 sec you get 4-5combo and right after rip end add new rip (it's in time 1sec before mangle wears off, and for some unknown reason server resume count it in damage even it ended) you add new mangle and have rip = (damage*1.3*1.3)
Originally Posted by dukes View Post
Surely the last page of posts explains the mechanic behind the double rip perfectly enough? Wait until mangle is on but rip isn't (the last 1-2 seconds of the debuff), then rip, then wait for mangle to run out and then put on a new mangle. The rip gets the benefit of both the initial mangle and the new one. I'm not sure if this is a "perfect" bug where it always happens, or if it's dependant on client/server lag interaction and will only happen some of the time.
Originally Posted by Boevis View Post
:00 Rip
:01 Mangle
.
.
:12 -Rip
:12:01 to :12:99 <- Reapply Rip Here!!!
:13 -Mangle
:13:01 to :13:99 <- Reapply Mangle Here!!!

I believe this is how it works, and because you have <1 sec window to reapply rip is why people tend to have difficulty replicating it, even with the new "build in stopcasting" you're still looking at an average .3 seconds latency + reaction time on your reapply.

Last edited by dukes : 01/30/08 at 3:33 PM.

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Old 01/30/08, 3:10 PM   #1615
Cyandire
Glass Joe
 
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Night Elf Druid
 
Jubei'Thos
Originally Posted by mesh7 View Post
While trying the double mangle debuff "bug" on mobs, i noticed something that didn't make sense. When I ripped during the last second of mangle, that rip acted as if it had one mangle debuff for the next 12secs, even though none was up. If you then proceeded to throw up a mangle, (didn't matter if a few rips ticks went by), then the rip would receive the "double" mangle debuff.

This shows that the bug is solely based on landing rip during that last 1/2 second of a mangle and somehow the rip gets the debuff for the next 12 seconds as well. Is this correct or a different bug altogether?
Yes its the same bug that has been discussed as dukes just pointed out, i went home yesterday and had a 2 hour session trying to get the timing right. I succeeded a couple of times but nailing the timing was very difficult from my experiences, its probably because im playing on an oceanic realm with around 450-500 ping, oh for want of an aussie server thats actually in Australia :P.

But if you stick the timing use it 750 rip ticks yes please!

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Old 01/30/08, 3:54 PM   #1616
Ledneh
Von Kaiser
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
Okey dokey time for someone to tell me why I'm such a dang fuckup at kitty form fights.

Here's a WWS for TK last week; in particular is the Solarian death split. I was tenth place, with 750 DPS.

Now this wouldn't bother me, since I know cat DPS isn't exactly top of the line, but all but one of the others in the top 10 have like 200 more DPS than me, and I can't possibly attribute that to just "lol druid". I took a look at the Toskk DPS thingy, too, and it says with my stats I should be doing more like 880, not 750--still lower than the rest, but not as absurdly so. (and if I add powershifting to that, my expected DPS according to the formulae goes up even more)

I'm doing the right attack cycle (Shred to 4/5 CP, wait for 80, Rip, Mangle), or at least I think I am, so what could be going on? Is WWS mistaken in my DPS? Is Toskk overestimating my potential? Are cat druids just doomed to be this far below the pack by nature?

(edit) For reference: 3k AP, 32% crit, 86 hit, 2t4

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Old 01/30/08, 3:55 PM   #1617
Scurn
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Druid
 
Darkspear
I also spent an hour or two working on the timing using one of those servants. I have a latency of ~45 and even then it's not that easy to do every time. I think I had about a 60% success rate. I tried reproducing it in a 5-man and I ended up getting almost as many -mangle bugs as the +mangle variety. Unless it was a pure tank and spank I just couldn't seem to catch the golden half-second.

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Old 01/30/08, 4:52 PM   #1618
dukes
Bald Bull
 
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Dukes
Tauren Druid
 
No WoW Account (EU)
Originally Posted by Ledneh View Post
Okey dokey time for someone to tell me why I'm such a dang fuckup at kitty form fights.

Here's a WWS for TK last week; in particular is the Solarian death split. I was tenth place, with 750 DPS.

Now this wouldn't bother me, since I know cat DPS isn't exactly top of the line, but all but one of the others in the top 10 have like 200 more DPS than me, and I can't possibly attribute that to just "lol druid". I took a look at the Toskk DPS thingy, too, and it says with my stats I should be doing more like 880, not 750--still lower than the rest, but not as absurdly so. (and if I add powershifting to that, my expected DPS according to the formulae goes up even more)

I'm doing the right attack cycle (Shred to 4/5 CP, wait for 80, Rip, Mangle), or at least I think I am, so what could be going on? Is WWS mistaken in my DPS? Is Toskk overestimating my potential? Are cat druids just doomed to be this far below the pack by nature?

(edit) For reference: 3k AP, 32% crit, 86 hit, 2t4
24% shred crit rate, no powershifting, tank group? (warrior but a tree too by the looks of it).

Solarian will always be a pain for damage because of having to be behind, downtime while AOE's go on (iirc you'll do more damage total by barkskin->hurricaning than trying to melee during the aoe phase). Everyone above you has some form of AoE attack (blade flurry, multishot, magic stuffs).

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Old 01/30/08, 4:56 PM   #1619
Astrylian
Rawr
 
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Night Elf Monk
 
Stormrage
Ledneh: Calculator's are almost always going to overestimate your dps because they calculate pure tank&spank situations. In this case, you're losing dps when she vanishes, waiting for the little guys to spawn, running to the priests, priests dying quick so not being able to get off full rip cycles, running back to her... One thing you can do is Barkskin + Hurricane each pack of little guys. That does 2500 dps for 10 sec if you can hit em all.

Also, I'm guessing those stats are unbuffed. They seem decent for that progression level. Gear looks fine, though there are a few weird gem choices, but that's not so bad. Perhaps you need to be grouped better... Grouped with a dps warrior, and an enh shammy? Or at least some BM hunters?

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Old 01/30/08, 5:08 PM   #1620
Ledneh
Von Kaiser
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by dukes View Post
24% shred crit rate, no powershifting, tank group? (warrior but a tree too by the looks of it).

Solarian will always be a pain for damage because of having to be behind, downtime while AOE's go on (iirc you'll do more damage total by barkskin->hurricaning than trying to melee during the aoe phase). Everyone above you has some form of AoE attack (blade flurry, multishot, magic stuffs).
I don't recall, but it IS possible I was left in the tank group for the trash, VR, etc.

Thanks for the thoughts, folks. I'm gonna see if any older WWSes for more tanky-spanky fights are still available and look to those.

(by the way, for whoever asked, some of my gems/enchants are odd because much of my cat and bear gear is still shared. In a couple cases, my choices are odd because they were purple gems rotting in my bank and I didn't want to spend money and I'm too lazy to replace them so there)

I know the single biggest improvement I can make is powershifting more, but doing so worries me basically because of mana consumption.

When I powershift (using /cancelform /cast Cat Form), my estimated mana bar (from Pitbull) does not update, and never does until I assume caster form (however temporarily). I'm assuming this is because of the 2.3 shifting changes, where the switch to caster simply doesn't happen server-side. Is there a fix for this? My version of Pitbull is totally up to date, so I'm not sure it's that.

Also, I know the more you powershift the greater your long-term DPS is (as long as you're not powershifting at >25 energy), but how much is "enough"? I worry that I'm going to run my mana bar dry and be unable to pop out and Rebirth or Innervate or whatever without being stuck in caster form--while a mana pot could cure this, what if I'm on cooldown for pots? Then I'm cramboned--and it could happen at any time since, as I said above, my mana estimate bar is broked for 2.3 powershifting.

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