Feral Megathread - Page 110

dukes · 01/31/08, 1:33 PM

Originally Posted by xyruul

Didn't I post like 2 pages ago that the v2 client of wws auto includes ghosts? If you use the old 'v1' method it doesn't. We have tried to upload via the v1 method to fix teron, but then we had issues with other bosses. Ultimately it doesn't matter because Los said he's going to re parse the entire wws database soon and it's on their top list of things to do. Also it has 0 effect on anyones personal dps. The raid dps is calculated by total damage done divided by the time in combat multiplied by the average % of combat time for everyone in the raid. This is of course a stupid way to calculate raid dps and it's being changed according to Los in the wws forums. Personal dps is calculated by your total damage done divided by your time in combat multiplied by your presence factor, ghosts have no factor in this. Presence is found by checking for any actions taken in 5s blocks, so if you do nothing for 20s that will be factored out of your dps, but if you FF in the middle you will only get 15s of time factored out.
If you want a more accurate measure of your dps for the time you spend dpsing, you shouldn't take unnecessary actions when you run out on bosses. The mage class suffers on this for instance since the fireball dot keeps ticking when they aren't dpsing.
All of our logs are unedited and just uploaded, I suggest everyone else do the same. The v2 client will be fixed and all the logs re-parsed and editing them could effect that when it happens.

Anyway I have been tracking my crit rate since mid September on Teron. That's about 16 kills (week off for holidays and one Teron bugged and despawnd) and in all the other 15 I had roughly -10% crit. That is a fairly significant amount. Wtb +10% crit the next 3 months to balance out!
Ignore the wipes, it was a bad week. ^^

Previous to your last post, you last posted nearly 500 posts ago (10 pages for me). I didn't realise you couldn't get rid of the ghost with the v2 parser as I only ever used the manual one, and I never had any issues (bar Akama and RoS, which are screwed for something like that in any case). You could just not assign Vengeful Spirit as a pet in the manual client without having to directly edit the logs.

I know how it adds up DPS, it just doesn't match the actual DPS done to the boss. I apologise about the DPS comment - the actual damage adds up, but the DPS doesn't even with the two bottom players (who had ~1% dps time) not included, so I assumed there was something wrong (and yes, I know how it calculates presence but I was doing a quick estimate at work).

As for having less crit rate - there was a theory when 2.0 was introduced that all bosses gained 5% worth of resillience. I don't think it was ever proved/disproved, people just kind of forgot about it because there's never really been a fight in TBC that is comparable to patchwerk, bar Teron, and then it's too short a fight to say anything serious statistically about it, even when you take an amalgamation of a load of runs together. I'm still wary of the WoW RNG after never seeing 4 or 5 of the items in BT drop ever even having farmed it for 4 months with a month of learning before that.

xyruul · 01/31/08, 2:57 PM

Originally Posted by dukes

Previous to your last post, you last posted nearly 500 posts ago (10 pages for me). I didn't realise you couldn't get rid of the ghost with the v2 parser as I only ever used the manual one, and I never had any issues (bar Akama and RoS, which are screwed for something like that in any case). You could just not assign Vengeful Spirit as a pet in the manual client without having to directly edit the logs.

That is exactly what we did, but doing so broke 2 other bosses in the log. I don't remember which or why/how since it was months ago but since then we just strait upload v2 logs.
Also I have no idea where my post went... maybe I just didn't click submit and fell asleep or something. Oh well.

Either way my luck has always been pretty bad so it's probably just that. I had a similar issue with my mage for a year pre TBC.

Eldergrubel · 01/31/08, 6:45 PM

As many have mentioned, there are some great tools that have been provided to help choose druid tanking armor.

TBC Bear Tanking Gear List
Ferocious Bite: 2.3 Bear Gear Assessment
Big Bear Butt Blogger: Balancing Bear Tank Gear Values
The Druid Wiki ? Rawr

However, no where have I been able to find the actual formulas or item values for the authors' mitigation stats (Armor, Agility, Stamina, Dodge, Defense, Resilience, etc.). Sooo.. I've been deconstructing published values, and made my own based on the values given. The idea is that I want to be able to choose to evaluate gear based on the following:

- Gurgleblaster's Mit Values
- My own "adjusted" values

I've put these values into Excel (much like shadowpanter.net) with a list of Druid gear and would love for someone to verify or help me tune my numbers so I might be able to share my results with the public. My goal is to perhaps discover the "perfect" mitigation values which takes into account a person's current gear and adjusts attribute priorities accordingly.

Deconstructing Gurgleblaster's "Mitigation Points" I came up with the following attribute values:
( my calculated mitigation values have been *very* close to the published values.. though not perfect )
AC - 0.5610
Agi - 3.7740
Sta - 4.1335
Res - 1.2920
Dod - 2.6530
Def - 2.5080
Blue Gem - 8 * Sta
Red Gem - 8 * Agi (or maybe 4 * Sta + 4 * Agi)
Yellow Gem - 4 * Sta (assuming green gem use)

Since 103 Resilience = 156 Defense (dang it, can't verify my source) I would expect that Resilience = 1.6559 instead of 1.2920, or perhaps Defense is being undervalued in Gurgleblaster's mitigation values. Also, I understand that these values will shift after 30,000 armor. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance!

Astrylian · 01/31/08, 8:43 PM

Rawr's calculations are clearly defined at The Druid Wiki � Rawr_Calculations

(And already does everything that you're trying to do)

Boevis · 01/31/08, 9:48 PM

The reason for Resil's value in comparison to Def is that Def provides Dodge/Miss Chance in addition to -Crit, so you can't make a direct correlation between the two.

Cluey · 02/01/08, 12:36 AM

Originally Posted by Astrylian

Toskk has been doing some tests on the combat tables lately. I'm sure he'll post his findings soon, but they may explain your missing crit rate. Looks like bosses have some form of bonus anti-crit, just like they have extra chance to be missed. Also prepare yourself for the idea of white attacks being two-roll. Again, not sure, just got a large sample size of data and working on explaining it still.

Sounds like it will be an interesting read, I have suspected for a while that all attacks except when duel wielding are on a two roll system.
The majority of testing has always been done by rogues followed by fury warriors as those classes are the ones most interested in the results.
From a coding perspective it means everything is done the same way unless you are swinging two melee weapons.

Is the lowered crit chance against bosses or anything a higher level or is it just too early to say?
My mind is reeling at the amount of data needed to actually work this out, best I just be patient.

Vaccine · 02/01/08, 6:22 AM

Originally Posted by Ledneh

Okey dokey time for someone to tell me why I'm such a dang fuckup at kitty form fights.

Here's a WWS for TK last week; in particular is the Solarian death split. I was tenth place, with 750 DPS.

Now this wouldn't bother me, since I know cat DPS isn't exactly top of the line, but all but one of the others in the top 10 have like 200 more DPS than me, and I can't possibly attribute that to just "lol druid". I took a look at the Toskk DPS thingy, too, and it says with my stats I should be doing more like 880, not 750--still lower than the rest, but not as absurdly so. (and if I add powershifting to that, my expected DPS according to the formulae goes up even more)

I'm doing the right attack cycle (Shred to 4/5 CP, wait for 80, Rip, Mangle), or at least I think I am, so what could be going on? Is WWS mistaken in my DPS? Is Toskk overestimating my potential? Are cat druids just doomed to be this far below the pack by nature?

(edit) For reference: 3k AP, 32% crit, 86 hit, 2t4

Well your crit rate seems very low for that level of the game. Your hit rate is low too, 10% miss on Shred is a pain normally, but on this fight in particular where you are continusally on the move to keep behind her, missed Shred's add up.

Your Mangle>Shred>Rip ratio is also terrible but I'm going to attribute that to the fact that you have to keep messing about with adds. The DPS classes that beat you are mostly AoE classes and gain a lot from the prescence of the adds, whereas the target shifting diminshes your DPS.

I realise the fights are different and you may have been mangling adds though so that is going to eat into your DPS a lot. The fight isn't terribly good for Druids because we need time to "set up" on a target as it were. To get Mangle, CP and Rip cycles going to start hitting the high DPS. Having to drop that and go messing about with low hp, low lifespan adds hurts our DPS more than a lot of other classes.

I wouldn't pay much attention to that WWS, the top 10 are mostly Warlocks, Mages and Hunters who all get massively inflated DPS due to AoE potential on this fight. The rogues are a better judge for you to compare yourself too as their AoE is more limited and they have similar issues with dropping CP when switching targets.

You are also suffering compared to them by not being in the melee group. Compare your buffs gained in the fight to the top rogues. You got Battle Shout. Thats it. Meedeoker got Windfury, Drums of Battle, SoE, Unleashed rage from your Enh Shaman, Ferocious Inspiration from the groups hunter(s) and of course Bloodlust. You got two Wraths, he got zero. For him to have less than a 100 DPS over you with all those group buffs well I wouldn't worry too much if I were you. Next time I'd try asking for the 2nd hunter in your group. The hunter gets LotP and Battleshout whereas you get Ferocious Inspiration, win/win.

But yer, its a bad fight for you. Unless you can get a DPS only role on Morogrim there isn't really a good DPS check fight in Tier 5 content.

Ledneh · 02/01/08, 10:40 AM

Originally Posted by Vaccine

But yer, its a bad fight for you. Unless you can get a DPS only role on Morogrim there isn't really a good DPS check fight in Tier 5 content.

Yeah, the more I thought about it the more I realized there aren't really any good checks for me. There ARE a couple in Karazhan though--I went through my old WWSes of our "pro" group (T5 raiders doing Kara for badges and random loot that never drops I'm looking at you pocketwatch), and I was topping the charts readily in several DPS-only fights there (Maiden, Aran, to a lesser degree Nightbane ('cause I had my bear gear on for the skellies), and Prince).

I HAVE been DPS-only on Morogrim before, but I've long lost those WWS parses/logs.

Incidentally, I topped overall DPS on Vashj a few nights ago, with third place on Vashj specifically. So I guess I'm either learning, or that's a better fight for cats, or some combination of the two (I was on Naga DPS/elemental overflow duty for p2 since we had a prot warrior, of course).

On a related note: we're starting serious attempts on Kael'thas on Sunday, and all of next week we're skipping SSC to make attempts on the faggy elf. If I'm going to be tanking anything, it'll be the axe, but I'm going to assume that they're just going to make me cat melee (assuming they invite me at all of course). I suspect P5 is kind of a pain in the dick for melee thanks to the nether stuff, but besides, how well can I be expected to perform in that fight?

Yaelle · 02/01/08, 11:08 AM

I think Kael'thas really favors a feral druid for his flexibility, so I wouldn't worry about that.
If it's not the axe you're tanking during P2 you can tank one of the other Weapons in cat gear and deal damage after that superior to a defensive spec warrior. Also do not worry too much about P5, as the nether vapor is not that much of a problem.

Concerning Lady Vashj, I think the ability to shift out of the entangling roots increases your damage uptime over other classes, which made you excel in that fight.

(Edited cat form -> cat gear)

TimWischmeier · 02/01/08, 11:36 AM

Originally Posted by Ledneh

I suspect P5 is kind of a pain in the dick for melee thanks to the nether stuff, but besides, how well can I be expected to perform in that fight?

If you get in P5 with less to no deaths (this will be the case if you get to manage P4 right), denn P5 really is not much more than waiting for your epics.

Eldergrubel · 02/01/08, 2:34 PM

Originally Posted by Astrylian

Rawr's calculations are clearly defined at The Druid Wiki � Rawr_Calculations

(And already does everything that you're trying to do)

I will have to check out Rawr! for in-game calculations, but I want to be able to compare these items OUT OF GAME. Also, though the site provides lots of formulas I could not find the base attribute values that Rawr! uses. I thought there'd be more demand for something like this and I thought the base values would be more readily available.

.. more work for me

Ledneh · 02/01/08, 2:40 PM

Originally Posted by Eldergrubel

I will have to check out Rawr! for in-game calculations, but I want to be able to compare these items OUT OF GAME. Also, though the site provides lots of formulas I could not find the base attribute values that Rawr! uses. I thought there'd be more demand for something like this and I thought the base values would be more readily available.

.. more work for me

Did you even look at the wiki? Rawr is a stand-alone .NET application.

dukes · 02/01/08, 2:45 PM

Originally Posted by Eldergrubel

I will have to check out Rawr! for in-game calculations, but I want to be able to compare these items OUT OF GAME. Also, though the site provides lots of formulas I could not find the base attribute values that Rawr! uses. I thought there'd be more demand for something like this and I thought the base values would be more readily available.

.. more work for me

The base values change. That's why most of them are expressed as formulas e.g. while tanking the more avoidance you get, the more avoidance is worth, so it has to be a formula, not a set value.

And yes, Rawr is out of game, not in game.

delemoose · 02/01/08, 3:34 PM

Originally Posted by Bornakk

The Feral bears will be seeing an improvement with Lacerate dealing additional damage based on your attack power.

Source

Won't know the exact buff until PTR, but still is welcomed.

Karmen · 02/01/08, 3:46 PM

The only thing I don't like about Rawr is that it is based on the assumption you are making your tank set to main tank. Therefore STA and Defense are valued more than anything else. Doesn't seem to be of real value to us druids that just tank trash or adds during a boss fight