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Old 03/28/08, 5:30 AM   #2776
 Falk
Soda Popinski
 
Falk
Night Elf Druid
 
No WoW Account
At least though, in terms of availability it's better than waiting out the weekly reset for Gurtogg's trinket (which benefits warriors/paladins way more anyway.. garghgh) so it's definitely worth farming till it drops for any tank.

The only gripe I have is how CC-dependant a non-warrior tank is for Magister's. Curse those 20-caster pulls.

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Old 03/28/08, 6:56 AM   #2777
Inaiwae
Piston Honda
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Sylvanas (EU)
Originally Posted by Falk View Post
The only gripe I have is how CC-dependant a non-warrior tank is for Magister's. Curse those 20-caster pulls.
Use LoS, there's always a corner available at MT. All it requires is a party capable of waiting with dmg until the mobs get to you. Provided that you are refering to spell reflect, not to 16% caster dmg mitigation.

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Old 03/28/08, 8:10 AM   #2778
 Falk
Soda Popinski
 
Falk
Night Elf Druid
 
No WoW Account
A little of both. More healing required means more threat needed on mobs to stay over healers. And threat from reflect aside, you just take loads less damage from totally nullifying the reflected spell.

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Old 03/28/08, 9:39 AM   #2779
TimWischmeier
Piston Honda
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Kult der Verdammten (EU)
I don't want to derail from the threat discussion, but a word or two from my view of MT in heroic mode:

Pretty hard, at least for me, but we are getting closer to no-wipe runs. We run with a CoH-Priest (that really, really makes things much easier!), a shadow priest, a Warlock, an Enhancer shaman and me, as a Feral Tank. Gear is what you expect to be having Illidan killed two weeks ago (yay, again!).

Our first attempts involved MCing a mob ob the groups first, letting it go down, and then engage in the pull (btw: Magisters, if I recall it right, are immune to seduce an MC). That worked partially. We then switched to "woosh-'round-the-corner"-pulls: aggro with FFF, let seduce, mc and banish go in, oneshot the imp, and the try to stun and interrupt the rest, which works rather well. My advice is to MC the Mage Guard, as they can stun, and seduce the warlock or the ethereum guy, if present. And always remeber to use every shock, feral charge, silence, bash and grounding totem cooldown you have.

This setup also allows a special strategy for the third boss: drop a grounding totem right before the pull, and with priest/priest/warlock you can pretty much chain-AE-fear the mobs without risking them to run into groups in the back. I don't say, this makes that boss easy, I just say, this way we only get two or three wipes instead of seven or eight .

At Kael: really try to nuke him to 50% before he bubbles. But I do have to say I have to work rather hard on every pull, timing bash, reposition in order to charge casts and so on. And, at least, AE-tanking mobs with being careful to not to swipe any cc. At least, I got my commendation yesterday, which does make it a bit easier.

By the way, I go on a stamina-heavy equip there, dropping my armor to like 30k, which is still enough, but will help to give the healer some seconds to heal the group, and not chain healing me. Looks like feral tanks have to favour stamina more since 2.4.

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Old 03/28/08, 10:54 AM   #2780
s03eweber
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Uther
If you could please help me wih some of my gear decisions

Currently I am an OT for the guild Cipher Legion on Uther. We are in the process of doing Mt. Hyjal and BT. I have been reading all the posts in this thread for some time in order to really try to understand the best way to tank and what items will help me achieve that goal. I really just wanted some feedback from experienced players as to what I should be looking for to advance my gear in 2.4 as well as what enchants and sockets would best suit the gear I currently have. I know that this seems like a silly thing to ask but I really am struggling with my decisions as of late. I will link my armory so you can look at my character and tell me what I could change or enhance if you would please. I am having trouble hitting the armor cap currently I am fully buffed around 31k. I am begining to wonder if I have too much defense gear or if something else might be wrong with my decisions as far as sockets go. Thanks again in advance for the advice and I hope this post doesn't annoy anyone as I am jsut trying to be a better player overall.


The World of Warcraft Armory


Also I do have the tier 5 pants but they are not equipped in the armory and I do have the trinket the badge of tenacity which I use for tanking.


Best

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Old 03/28/08, 11:18 AM   #2781
seminarca
Don Flamenco
 
Retired
Tauren Druid
 
No WoW Account
Get Exalted with Scryers for the good shoulder enchant.

Your cloak is unenchanted, put 12 Agi on it.

+6 to all stats is a better chest enchant than your current one.

15 Agi is a better glove enchant than your current one.

I cannot recommend run speed strongly enough for tanks, Boar's Speed or Cat's Swiftness for your boots.

You are way over the crit reduction cap, with 3/3 Survival of the Fittest you only need 2.6% crit reduction from gear. Currently you have 4.56% from gear: you can drop some defense and/or resilience. Good places to drop defense are neck (use the alternate Expertise/Hit badge neck instead) and gems. If you are OT in your guild, consider switching blue gems to Agi/Sta, yellow ones to Agi/Hit and red ones to Agi or Agi/Sta.

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Old 03/28/08, 11:42 AM   #2782
Inaiwae
Piston Honda
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Sylvanas (EU)
Cat druids & Brutallus

I expect 99% of feral druids to either tank or sit out on Brutallus, but i am curious if ferals can be used as dps there without gimping the raid. I'd like to try it myself but i will (hopefully) have to tank.

Boss has 10M hp, 6min enrage, if raid is 3/8/16 then it's cca 1800 per dps to bring him down. So far my best dps result was 1350dps on Teron (tank group, 1 heroism, fight took 3'45'').

If anyone tried it, or has some thoughts, let us know :-).

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Old 03/28/08, 11:47 AM   #2783
Daboran
King Hippo
 
Daboran's Avatar
 
Tauren Druid
 
Twisting Nether (EU)
To add to the above...

Your gear is about right for where you are in Progression, if a bit light on Tier items - try to prioritize some more Tier items in whatever dkp system you are using and that will go a long way to improving your armor. Until Sunwell the S3 chest and PvP bracers will be all you need as long as the rest of your gear is Tier in order to give you PvE rather than PvP statting.

Buy the badge tanking cloak - it's cheap and the best in the game for Ferals.

Run Heroic Magisters whenever you can to pick up the useful items from there.

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Old 03/28/08, 11:54 AM   #2784
Daboran
King Hippo
 
Daboran's Avatar
 
Tauren Druid
 
Twisting Nether (EU)
Originally Posted by Inaiwae View Post
I expect 99% of feral druids to either tank or sit out on Brutallus, but i am curious if ferals can be used as dps there without gimping the raid. I'd like to try it myself but i will (hopefully) have to tank.

Boss has 10M hp, 6min enrage, if raid is 3/8/16 then it's cca 1800 per dps to bring him down. So far my best dps result was 1350dps on Teron (tank group, 1 heroism, fight took 3'45'').

If anyone tried it, or has some thoughts, let us know :-).
A lot will depend on your raid makeup. Catform can put out some huge dps if you have an Enhancement Shaman in the group twisting totems and maintaining UR, but that's not practical if you are "stealing" that spot from a Rogue/Warrior who has then to sit in a gimped MT group.
Unless you have the best cat gear in every slot, even then another Rogue will probably be more damage than you+your crit aura contributes...

Until your raid gears up and there is more room for error I just don't think it will be practical.

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Old 03/28/08, 11:56 AM   #2785
Allev
King Hippo
 
Allev's Avatar
 
Tauren Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
If you are A) good at DPSing, B) have the gear to do great DPS, and C) there isn't another feral in the raid, a single kitty DPSing is as valuable as a 3rd rogue due to keeping up faerie fire and mangle, and LOTP for a melee or hunter group.

LOTP: 60-100 DPS per person you buff x 4
Faerie fire: 20-30 DPS per person you buff x 8
mangle: 30 DPS for every rogue you buff x2

= somewhere around 500 RDPS which you bring to the raid which doesn't show up on meters. Note that if you have a bear tank, all you bring is the LOTP, and you only get a bonus of around 250. A moonkin with improved FF will also reduce your raid-viability. Being in the tank group will reduce your viability unless you put an enh shaman in there for threat, and have 2 warrior tanks so you also get shout.

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Old 03/28/08, 12:20 PM   #2786
Thessaly
Piston Honda
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Kargath
Originally Posted by TimWischmeier View Post
I don't want to derail from the threat discussion, but a word or two from my view of MT in heroic mode:

Pretty hard, at least for me, but we are getting closer to no-wipe runs. We run with a CoH-Priest (that really, really makes things much easier!), a shadow priest, a Warlock, an Enhancer shaman and me, as a Feral Tank. Gear is what you expect to be having Illidan killed two weeks ago (yay, again!).

Our first attempts involved MCing a mob ob the groups first, letting it go down, and then engage in the pull (btw: Magisters, if I recall it right, are immune to seduce an MC). That worked partially. We then switched to "woosh-'round-the-corner"-pulls: aggro with FFF, let seduce, mc and banish go in, oneshot the imp, and the try to stun and interrupt the rest, which works rather well. My advice is to MC the Mage Guard, as they can stun, and seduce the warlock or the ethereum guy, if present. And always remeber to use every shock, feral charge, silence, bash and grounding totem cooldown you have.

This setup also allows a special strategy for the third boss: drop a grounding totem right before the pull, and with priest/priest/warlock you can pretty much chain-AE-fear the mobs without risking them to run into groups in the back. I don't say, this makes that boss easy, I just say, this way we only get two or three wipes instead of seven or eight .

At Kael: really try to nuke him to 50% before he bubbles. But I do have to say I have to work rather hard on every pull, timing bash, reposition in order to charge casts and so on. And, at least, AE-tanking mobs with being careful to not to swipe any cc. At least, I got my commendation yesterday, which does make it a bit easier.

By the way, I go on a stamina-heavy equip there, dropping my armor to like 30k, which is still enough, but will help to give the healer some seconds to heal the group, and not chain healing me. Looks like feral tanks have to favour stamina more since 2.4.
A little Fire Resist went a long way on heroic Kael, which you should probably have anyhow if you're killing Illidan. I've been pulling with Cyclone or even Hurricane to get initial aggro on the entirety of those large packs, then running out of LoS and letting whatever CC we have do their thing. The Magisters seem the most dangerous to just leave on their own, that haste adds up in a hurry. Try to keep your distance from your ranged dps, too, Glaive Throw means no dodge and no heals if you're too close to your healer.

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Old 03/28/08, 12:28 PM   #2787
Astrylian
Rawr
 
Astrylian's Avatar
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Stormrage
Originally Posted by gophermunchr View Post
Thanks a lot! =)

Has anyone noticed Rawr doesn't include cloak of fiends?
I'm pretty sure that the default itemcache with the latest version of Rawr does include Cloak of Fiends. But if it really doesn't, adding it is only 3 clicks away.

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Old 03/28/08, 12:53 PM   #2788
s03eweber
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Uther
Thank you very much for your prompt feedback and I will definitely make thoe changes that you recommended. I will definitely try to get some more hit rating and agi and change the neck piece out as well as get the badge tanking cloak. If you should have any other suggestions please feel free to let me know =).


Thanks Again

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Old 03/28/08, 2:03 PM   #2789
kalbear
Bald Bull
 
Tauren Druid
 
Balnazzar
Sorry, wrong thread. Please ignore.

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Old 03/28/08, 2:11 PM   #2790
Sandyr
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Turalyon
Got Kale done last night, but afterwards I couldn't help but think that free action potions might counteract the INCREDIBLY aggravating 10k hit + 3sec stun + 3k DoT. Anyone try out free action potions and know if they work to prevent stun, or damage entirely?

Drive By Boulder

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Old 03/28/08, 2:15 PM   #2791
goss
Rainmaker
 
goss's Avatar
 
Human Paladin
 
Executus
We used them extensively, they definitely prevent the stun. I do not think they prevent any damage, but it allowed our tanks to wear more avoidance (and more hit to avoid annoying taunt resists).

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Old 03/28/08, 2:35 PM   #2792
 Falk
Soda Popinski
 
Falk
Night Elf Druid
 
No WoW Account
Regarding the stamina vs avoidance stacking discussion, some new stuff came up which I believe deserves a lot of investigation.

Firstly, it's apparent right off that avoidance, point for point, gets better the more of it you have. (1% more avoidance at 50% is worth more than 1% avoidance at 0%, as a very straightforward example)

Secondly, I present Sunwell Radiance - Spells - World of Warcraft and http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...l/WoWDodge.jpg which kinda explain each other. This is also anecdotally the same as what we particularly noticed on Brutallus at least, when we were attempting him.

It goes without saying that the implications of this would be staggering if true (I'm not implying that I'm 100% confident that it's true), and I'm going to try to track down if all bosses have this new design paradigm built in. (WWS as it is isn't helping much :| yay combat log change) Long story short is, it may well be that we won't be avoiding nearly as much as we think.

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Old 03/28/08, 3:33 PM   #2793
Raerianna
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Alleria
Originally Posted by Allev View Post
Note that if you have a bear tank, all you bring is the LOTP, and you only get a bonus of around 250.
...Either I'm misreading this or yeah. If you bring a bear tank you will still get mangle and FF. The mangle will be less often due to hit, so you can probably half the numbers on that one..but I always keep FF up personally, reducing boss armor for a little extra means more damage which means more threat.



On the heroic Kael discussion, this may seem like a no brainer, but if you're having dps issues on him, switch to cat form during gravity lapse and his stun right after. Also the fireballs hit for 5kish, for anyone who's curious, so if you get hit by a few, it won't kill you right off the bat if you're at 18k+ hp.

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Old 03/28/08, 3:44 PM   #2794
Cluey
King Hippo
 
Cluey's Avatar
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Dragonblight
Originally Posted by TimWischmeier View Post
Heroic Magisters Terrace stuff.
I am not sure what advice to give you for tanking heroic Magisters Terrace, I have been using my standard heroic tank set which includes a massive 29000 armour.
I guess it depends on who you are playing with as I have done it in a group very similar to the one you listed, I had a tree healing instead of a CoH priest.
My heroic tank set is very offensive, 4.8% hit and 32 expertise. I used to have more hit rating but changed some stuff around when I got upgrades recently, before the upgrades I had about 500 less armour, 5.8% hit but only 16 expertise which give 4% anti dodge and parry. I am logged out in my heroic/raid trash tanking setup now, the [Shard of Contempt] used to be an [Alchemist's Stone], this may be too much expertise now.

The following is mostly general tips with some MrT stuff in there, the post ended up a lot longer than I expected so I made it more general and reorganised it.
You need to keep mobs off your healer, DPS can and should avoid pulling aggro but if your healer is getting hit things go bad very quickly.
Use all of your abilities to achieve this, as someone mentioned already use Line of Sight (LoS).
If you think you will be taking a lot of damage on the pull use Barkskin before you pull, the start of the fight is the most important time for your healer so taking less damage then is good.

A smooth pull makes a huge of difference.
Tips I do to try and avoid things going wrong:
Cast Wrath at the mob the mage will Polymorph so if it breaks it comes for me, not them, making it easier for them to sheep it again.
Cyclone a mob to stagger incoming damage, very handy on twin pulls of heavy hitting mobs as this is when the healer is most vulnerable, not as important as your gear improves.
Moonfire an extra mob so you have threat on it before it gets to you.

You can combine these things as well, on tricky pulls I will do the following:
1. Cast Wrath the second mob to be killed, while the cast is in progress choose the fourth mob to be killed.
2. When the latency indicator on my castbar indicates Wrath has finished I cast Cyclone, while that casts I select the third mob to be killed.
3. When the latency indicator on my castbar indicates Cyclone has finished I start backing up and cast moonfire on the third mob to be killed and select the first kill target.
4. While backing up, or turning to run depending on how close the corner or my chose fight location is, I hit bear form and Enrage.

I have the Intensity talent so enrage gives me more rage, if you are running back far enough you can fit in another moonfire but be careful of the GCD preventing you getting into bear form.
With the bonus rage we can get at the start it is possible to get Demoralizing Roar up before the mob/s hit you further reducing initial healer danger and adding some threat to all the mobs.
If you are tanking four mobs and used Cyclone you should be able to get two Swipes in before the Cycloned mob gets to you, keep an eye out for it so you can select it as it comes and stop it hitting your healer. Ask the healer to stand in a position so that if he gets healing threat the mob runs past you not away from you.
Assuming you have enough rage, which you should with three mobs on you, you can Maul the first kill target while Swiping the others.
After picking up the Cycloned mob you might have to Taunt the first kill target depending on what your DPS classes are like, if it is close to death already you can just Bash it so it doesn't kill someone before it dies and work on getting a threat lead on the second kill target.

If the pulls are bigger than four and you don't have any CC DPS needs to be more careful than usual, if they are stupid let them die, just make sure you keep the healer alive as your healer can't really choose not to generate threat.
Most larger pulls in five man instances normally contain mobs which don't hit very hard, those six pulls before the first boss in Magisters Terrace are like this and some of them are casters which your armour doesn't do anything to. Initially I was quite cautious and pulled them with Barkskin/Hurricane which let me get two ticks of Hurricane before I hit bear form and ducked out of LoS, that should be enough threat to keep it off your healer.
The last run I did I just ran into the middle of them and cast Barkskin/Hurricane, warn your healer first if you try this. Healing threat is split between the mobs so your healer should be safe but a tree druid can get threat at the very start if you are not on full health and there is a HoT on you.
If you want to be more cautious go in in bear form and use Demoralizing Roar first then pop out and Barkskin/Hurricane, after it finishes just Swipe lots while tabbing between mobs each time you auto attack or Maul, depending on rage.
Note. This is how I did the dancers in Karazhan right from the start if we didn't have a paladin with us.

All of the above comes down to your group working together as a team, if DPS starts before the mobs get to where you want to fight them it sucks as you will be out of position and most likely have mobs hitting you from behind, but as you have recently killed Illidan I am going to assume that they have some idea of how threat mechanics work.

If your Warlock decided that Seed of Corruption was the right spell to cast and you want to save him use Challenging Roar, if he does the same thing next pull you can Bash one mob and Taunt the other or you can point and laugh.
Rogues using Blade Flurry will pull the second target from you, you can ask them not to use it but it kills shit faster so I just deal with it. If the primary target is still on you you can just Taunt the second one, if both have turned on the rogue Bash the one on the lowest life, it should be primary kill target or something went wrong, and Taunt the other.
If the first isn't dead before the stun wears off it is the Rogues turn to use his cooldowns.
If you have a Rogue try and make sure the mobs don't move around much as they can't control the second target for Blade Flurry and you want the damage focussed.
On large pulls I don't mind the Rogue using Cheap Shot, as it helps the healer out by minimising initial damage, with three or four mobs hitting you you should still have enough rage, on single or double pulls I prefer it they don't unless the mobs are hard hitters, either way they need to wait for the mobs to be in position.

Originally Posted by s03eweber View Post
Thank you very much for your prompt feedback and I will definitely make thoe changes that you recommended. I will definitely try to get some more hit rating and agi and change the neck piece out as well as get the badge tanking cloak. If you should have any other suggestions please feel free to let me know =).


Thanks Again
My suggestion is to read the first posts, read them a few times if you need to.
Also read Working Theories of Theorycrafting as of 2.3 so you have a better understanding of what other classes do.

Astrylian as put a huge amount of time and effort into the Rawr program, I was late to use it but now I have I was a fool not to earlier, have a look at it as it will help you plan your sets out much more easily, it is linked in the first post.

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Old 03/28/08, 4:29 PM   #2795
Merple
King Hippo
 
Merple's Avatar
 
Merple
Undead Priest
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by Cluey View Post
Multi-mob pulling
Excellent writeup of multi-mob tanking. Thank you. It'd almost be worth incorporating into a playstyle guide.

-In our country, any CBC reporter can dream of becoming head of state.

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Old 03/28/08, 8:27 PM   #2796
coredumperror
Piston Honda
 
coredumperror's Avatar
 
Tauren Druid
 
<SiN>
Vek'nilash
Wow, thanx for the outstanding multi-mob tanking guide! I'm going to definitely put several of those suggestions to first use tonight in Heroic MT (it'll be my first run in there... been too busy progressing in BT this week to get in there yet).

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Old 03/29/08, 8:04 AM   #2797
Daboran
King Hippo
 
Daboran's Avatar
 
Tauren Druid
 
Twisting Nether (EU)
Critique required

I'm looking to be tanking Brutallus, honestly it concerns me more than any boss in TBC so far. Any critique of my proposed gear without breaking the forum ban on fight details would be great:


[Thunderheart Cover] 5agi/7sta 18sta/5%meta +16def/+17dodge
[Pendant of Titans]
[Thunderheart Pauldrons] 15sta 15sta +15def/10dodge
[Slikk's Cloak of Placation] +12agi
[Thunderheart Chestguard] 15sta 15sta 15sta +15 resilience
[Thunderheart Gauntlets] 15sta +12agi
[Vindicator's Dragonhide Bracers] 4agi/6sta +12sta
[Belt of Natural Power] 4agi/6sta 4agi/6sta
[Thunderheart Leggings] +15sta +40sta/12agi
[Treads of the Den Mother]+9sta/speed
[A'dal's Signet of Defense]
[Violet Signet of the Great Protector]

[Badge of Tenacity]
[Moroes' Lucky Pocket Watch]

[Wildfury Greatstaff] +35agi
[Idol of Terror]



I've got a bank full of alternatives from all kara/heroic/tier levels so rather than list all my other gear, just suggest alternatives and I can see if I have them

My dilemma is that this is pretty low on +hit/expertise - I was thinking of using [Brooch of Deftness] and enchanting the cloak with +def to maintain uncrittable.
Also maybe wear a high +sta trinket instead of Moroes? I'd dearly like to get more threat as well, but don't want to compromise my survivability.
Any other suggestions?

Last edited by Daboran : 03/29/08 at 8:16 AM.

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Old 03/29/08, 9:48 AM   #2798
Draugdae
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Kargath
Regarding Fire Resist for Heroic Kael, I put on 280ish FR and did not observe a single resist on the fireballs. It may help for phoenixes and flamestrikes, but that's avoidable damage anyway.

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Old 03/29/08, 10:24 AM   #2799
Thessaly
Piston Honda
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Kargath
Originally Posted by Draugdae View Post
Regarding Fire Resist for Heroic Kael, I put on 280ish FR and did not observe a single resist on the fireballs. It may help for phoenixes and flamestrikes, but that's avoidable damage anyway.
Yeah, I noticed this the second time I tried it as well. I'm guessing the first time was just the healer adjusting to the fight, so it seemed like I was taking less damage, since the combat log hasn't been agreeing with me.

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Old 03/29/08, 11:30 AM   #2800
Nopher
Von Kaiser
 
Troll Druid
 
Kazzak (EU)
Originally Posted by Daboran View Post
I'm looking to be tanking Brutallus, honestly it concerns me more than any boss in TBC so far. Any critique of my proposed gear without breaking the forum ban on fight details would be great:


[Thunderheart Cover] 5agi/7sta 18sta/5%meta +16def/+17dodge
[Pendant of Titans]
[Thunderheart Pauldrons] 15sta 15sta +15def/10dodge
[Slikk's Cloak of Placation] +12agi
[Thunderheart Chestguard] 15sta 15sta 15sta +15 resilience
[Thunderheart Gauntlets] 15sta +12agi
[Vindicator's Dragonhide Bracers] 4agi/6sta +12sta
[Belt of Natural Power] 4agi/6sta 4agi/6sta
[Thunderheart Leggings] +15sta +40sta/12agi
[Treads of the Den Mother]+9sta/speed
[A'dal's Signet of Defense]
[Violet Signet of the Great Protector]

[Badge of Tenacity]
[Moroes' Lucky Pocket Watch]

[Wildfury Greatstaff] +35agi
[Idol of Terror]



I've got a bank full of alternatives from all kara/heroic/tier levels so rather than list all my other gear, just suggest alternatives and I can see if I have them

My dilemma is that this is pretty low on +hit/expertise - I was thinking of using [Brooch of Deftness] and enchanting the cloak with +def to maintain uncrittable.
Also maybe wear a high +sta trinket instead of Moroes? I'd dearly like to get more threat as well, but don't want to compromise my survivability.
Any other suggestions?
That's pretty much what I used except for having s3 gloves, a stam trinket over Moroes and Pillar over Wildfury. I also preemptively used the badge and popped a seed before taunting. If I were you I wouldn't worry that much about threat, our prot Warrior had a very gimped spec threat-wise and we did just fine.

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