Feral Megathread - Page 112

Cluey · 02/02/08, 1:22 PM

Originally Posted by Boevis

*snip*

Looking at the 3x Hunter Shaman Druid group, it's actually pretty bad for your personal DPS (and arguably not that great for RDPS since hunters often outrange LotP) I personally prefer the MT group with GoA/WF twisting shaman to maximize tank threat. I'm fairly certain all this has been covered before at some point and time.

*snip*

Remember that the BM hunters won't have Hawk Eye so it is only the Survival hunter who might out range it, seeing as they are in a group with you to get 5% crit to help keep Expose Weakness up they should be paying attention to where they stand.
A shaman twisting totems in the MT group means they will be enhance as they are the only ones with the free cool downs to do it, raiding with two enhance shaman would be great and would solve a lot of the "which group" problems but isn't a reality for many.
Additionally how long will twisting still be an option?
After they stop it there will be no Grace of Air in the melee group or even the tank group if windfury is being used for threat.

We only have one regular rogue but we have an enhance shaman, two DPS warriors (fury and arms) and sometimes a ret paladin or a second rogue. One of the feral druids would probably do better in the group than the paladin but a paladin without windfury is much worse than a feral in the hunter group.
I have been tanking trash from the hunter or melee group for a while now and even Void Reaver, being in the melee group for Void Reaver is actually really good as the buffs do silly stuff for threat.

It will always come down to a compromise somewhere though and depends on each raids class balance.
If you have enough shaman for multiple groups that rocks but isn't all that common for alliance, if you do then being in the tank group isn't to bad for either the displaced rogue or feral druid.

Brachamul the resto shaman can be swapped into a caster group for the duration of Mana Tide but I haven't heard too many casters complaining about mana problems recently.
Buffing DPS helps to kill the mobs faster and save the healers mana at the same time, the quicker you kill it the less time they are healing and the less potion cool downs they can use.

Drasil · 02/03/08, 5:50 AM

I've determined the exact mechanism behind double-mangled rips.

There are two kinds of mangles:

1: Regular mangle. Rips gain 30% damage while active.
2: Weird mangle: Rips that began during this debuff gain 30% damage throughout their duration.
Both types of mangles affect shred the same.

Only one type of mangle can be active at once. But rip can gain the benefit of both at the same time.

Example:

- Apply Mangle #2
- Rip
- Wait until Mangle #2 expires.
- Apply Mangle #1
- Now rip is doing 1.3*1.3 damage.

To apply a "weird" mangle, apply a normal mangle, then mangle again exactly as it expires. You'll know it works if there is some lag before the debuff shows up on the mob.

It's important to understand this, not only to take advantage of it, but to avoid bugged rips that aren't affected by mangle. This will happen if you do the reverse of my example above, and it's very easy to accidentally do.

Boevis · 02/03/08, 8:16 AM

Originally Posted by dukes

125 DPS is probably less than 10% gain for you.
2x Ferocious Inspiration = 6% direct gain, and you still have SoE and GoA in Cluey's example. I'm pretty sure that that evens out personal DPS. If hunters are outranging LotP it's their own fault, not yours (you're limited to melee range, after all, and there's very very few situations where it's required for hunters to be at max range).

I think the main point that should be made is that the RDPS gain of switching between the two group setups is minimal (maybe 200 dps tops, which should be less than 1% total RDPS). Sure, it can make a difference sometimes, but most of the time it won't, and not using the absolutely optimal group setup won't make you wipe over and over on something - if you're wiping that often there's something inherently wrong in what you're doing. Setting up groups correctly in general gives a very big gain, but arguing over who gets the most benefit within a particular group setup when the argument has been going on for so long and nothing conclusive has come of it is an exercise in futility.

Except the argument hasn't been "going on for so long" I really haven't seen anything other than blanked "3x Rogue is the best" from people that aren't even willing to consider a Feral Druid as essential for DPS. According to the spreadsheets, even if I'm doing DPS in Bearform, RDPS goes up with me in the Melee group instead of a 3rd rogue when considering MT group vs Melee group. If you think a 350 RDPS increase is minimal that's fine, for people like me, getting an extra 10 is worth it.

I won't argue that hunter group is better than MT group, as LOTP increases the proc rate of the already high FI.

As for paladins, looking at Ret Pallies in various top DPS guilds (Abananax for instance) I see Windfury as 5% of a pally's DPS, UR is pretty close to 5% as well, so a Druid is getting more from Melee group than he is.

Lambach · 02/03/08, 8:41 AM

The pally also gets UR, contributing to a significant raise in dps. The main reason that the 3rd weapon using class is favorable is because the shaman does have to drop WF, and its better for more players that can use it to be able to, instead of sticking them in ridiculously subpar groups.

dukes · 02/03/08, 9:42 AM

Originally Posted by Boevis

I see Windfury as 5% of a pally's DPS

I would like the see where you got that figure from, just for interests sake, as I've always heard paladins talk about windfury how warriors talk about windfury; that it's of so much benefit it's almost not worth having a paladin DPSing if they aren't getting it.

Sarasper · 02/03/08, 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by Drasil

I've determined the exact mechanism behind double-mangled rips.

It's important to understand this, not only to take advantage of it, but to avoid bugged rips that aren't affected by mangle. This will happen if you do the reverse of my example above, and it's very easy to accidentally do.

Drasil, I'm not sure what you mean by "reverse", could you please explain the situation where the mangle debuff does not affect rip?

Astrylian · 02/03/08, 1:09 PM

Originally Posted by Sarasper

Drasil, I'm not sure what you mean by "reverse", could you please explain the situation where the mangle debuff does not affect rip?

Drasil's explination of double-rips is spot-on. Very cool. Now we need to determine the ideal rotation to best make use of it. I'm guessing we can only get a double-rip every other time with this. Here's the reverse that would give you a mangleless rip:

1) Apply Mangle #1
2) When the mangle is almost gone, apply rip.
3) Mangle as soon as Mangle #1 ends, applying Mangle #2

The rip was applied while under the affects of Mangle #1 (which wore off before the first tick), and Mangle #2 was applied after the rip.

Also of note: They have different names, so are clearly distinguishable. Mangle #1 (the mangle you normally see) is called 'Mangle (Cat)'. Mangle #2 (the mangle you only see if you mangle exactly as Mangle #1 ends) is called 'Mangle'. No (Cat) on Mangle #2.

Astrylian · 02/03/08, 1:58 PM

Also, Mangle will get applied if you Mangle at the exact time that either Mangle (Cat) or Mangle ends.

So lets see... The ideal DPS Rotation would be....

1) Apply Mangle (Cat).
2) Shred to 4+cp.
2b) On 2nd+ loops through the rotation, previous Rip wears off here
3) Mangle the instant Mangle (Cat) will wear off, to apply Mangle.
4) Rip
5) Shred to 4+cp.
6) Rip right before Mangle wears off. (??? Is this right? You clip a Rip tick doing this, and I don't even know if you can always overwrite it like this anyway)
7) Start over, applying Mangle (Cat).

That's the best rotation I could come up with. You lose half a single-mangle rip tick per rotation, plus half a rip tick goes unmangled, in exchange for double-mangling every other rip.

A typical rip tick, fully buffed, with no mangle, for me, would do about 550, conservatively. Using our typical rotation, that would produce, per 2 rotations:
715+715+715+715+715+715+715+715+715+715+715+715 = 8580dmg

Using the above rotation, you would get...
929.5+929.5+929.5+929.5+929.5+929.5+715+715+715+715+715 = 9152dmg

That's a 6.66% increase in dps from rip. Worth it?

Sarasper · 02/03/08, 4:07 PM

Originally Posted by Astrylian

1) Apply Mangle #1
2) When the mangle is almost gone, apply rip.
3) Mangle as soon as Mangle #1 ends, applying Mangle #2

The rip was applied while under the affects of Mangle #1 (which wore off before the first tick), and Mangle #2 was applied after the rip.

So would an appropriate interpretation be to not rip if mangle is under 2 sec (maybe 4 sec to be safe)? It would seem that the standard rip>mangle>shred>shred>rip>mangle... rotation would put you in that situation fairly often.

I've tried using 5cp rips to overwrite an existing rip but still get a "more powerful spell already in affect" error. Trying to rip early at 5cp doesn't seem to always work. A 5cp rip should be able to overwrite an existing 4cp rip though.

Drasil · 02/03/08, 7:55 PM

If you can overwrite rips, that rotation might work. Here is the rotation I'll try:

1. Mangle (Cat)
2. Shreds
3. Mangle
4. Shreds
5. Rip right before Mangle wears off
Repeat

Cons:
Only one rip every two cycles.

Pros:
12 second cycles, no matter your crit rate.
Constant uptime of mangle, for rogue's rupture. (note: the double-mangle won't affect them unless they time rupture right)
5 CP rips every time
Frees up a debuff slot (rip) half the time.

xyruul · 02/03/08, 7:56 PM

Originally Posted by dukes

I would like the see where you got that figure from, just for interests sake, as I've always heard paladins talk about windfury how warriors talk about windfury; that it's of so much benefit it's almost not worth having a paladin DPSing if they aren't getting it.

My rudimentary math puts it at 19% and 16% respectively for the two we brought to our highest Teron. Add another 3-4% for seal of blood procs from wf as well.

Cuandoman · 02/03/08, 10:28 PM

My thinking was that Druids get more use out of UR than any other due to our high AP values. In a no huner no Warrior group, we miss out on Imp SoE, UR, BS.

seminarca · 02/03/08, 10:50 PM

Sure, we have naturally high AP, and UR would add a higher absolute amount of AP for us as opposed to a Rogue. The real question is, can we translate that raw AP to actual DPS more effectively than a Rogue? I'm a huge fan of 2 x Enh Shaman tank/melee groups anyway.

Endosora · 02/03/08, 11:51 PM

Since I've seen a a bit of discussion about groups and optimizing raid dps, I come to you with a dilema. My raid leader creates a tank group and a melee dps group. He also has a group dedicated to warlocks which includes a shaman for Tranquil Air (they are destro and enjoy pulling agro). The three groups are as follows:

TANK GROUP:
Main Tank
Off Tank
Holy Paladin (Survival/BM Hunter.. if he decides to be active, we cleared most of BT with ZERO hunters.)
Feral Druid
Feral Druid

DPS GROUP:
MS Warrior
Enhanc Shaman
Rogue
Rogue
Rogue

WARLOCK GROUP:
Resto Shaman
Warlock
Warlock
Warlock
Holy Paladin

I've been trying to have him swap the lowest dps rogue with one of the feral druids in the tank group and swap the paladin (or hunter) with the resto shaman in the warlock group. The warlocks are given Tranquil Air for threat problems, but I feel giving the tank Windfury would offset that and allow the rogue that is being moved into the tank group to gain Leader of the Pack and only give up Unleashed Rage.

I've looked at one of the rogue spreadsheets to check what Boevis said and after the switch, the feral druid would gain about 150 DPS from Strength of Earth and Unleashed Rage. The members of the melee group would all gain about 64 DPS from Leader of the Pack, that's roughly 250 DPS. The rogue being swapped would lose 105 from Unleashed Rage, but gain 64 from Leader of the Pack (-41 DPS). The feral druid left in the tank group would also gain about 50 DPS from Strength of Earth.

After the swap, I'm calculating roughly a 450 DPS increase, which isn't too bad considering all it costs is one rogue Unleashed Rage.

The biggest concern I have with my argument is, will Windfury be enough to compensate for the destro warlocks losing Tranquil Air? Is the 450 DPS really worth the move? That's about 135k damage over a 5 minute fight. It can be the difference between a 1% wipe and a kill sometimes.

david0925 · 02/04/08, 1:08 AM

Originally Posted by Endosora

Since I've seen a a bit of discussion about groups and optimizing raid dps, I come to you with a dilema. My raid leader creates a tank group and a melee dps group. He also has a group dedicated to warlocks which includes a shaman for Tranquil Air (they are destro and enjoy pulling agro). The three groups are as follows:

TANK GROUP:
Main Tank
Off Tank
Holy Paladin (Survival/BM Hunter.. if he decides to be active, we cleared most of BT with ZERO hunters.)
Feral Druid
Feral Druid

DPS GROUP:
MS Warrior
Enhanc Shaman
Rogue
Rogue
Rogue

WARLOCK GROUP:
Resto Shaman
Warlock
Warlock
Warlock
Holy Paladin

I've been trying to have him swap the lowest dps rogue with one of the feral druids in the tank group and swap the paladin (or hunter) with the resto shaman in the warlock group. The warlocks are given Tranquil Air for threat problems, but I feel giving the tank Windfury would offset that and allow the rogue that is being moved into the tank group to gain Leader of the Pack and only give up Unleashed Rage.

I've looked at one of the rogue spreadsheets to check what Boevis said and after the switch, the feral druid would gain about 150 DPS from Strength of Earth and Unleashed Rage. The members of the melee group would all gain about 64 DPS from Leader of the Pack, that's roughly 250 DPS. The rogue being swapped would lose 105 from Unleashed Rage, but gain 64 from Leader of the Pack (-41 DPS). The feral druid left in the tank group would also gain about 50 DPS from Strength of Earth.

After the swap, I'm calculating roughly a 450 DPS increase, which isn't too bad considering all it costs is one rogue Unleashed Rage.

The biggest concern I have with my argument is, will Windfury be enough to compensate for the destro warlocks losing Tranquil Air? Is the 450 DPS really worth the move? That's about 135k damage over a 5 minute fight. It can be the difference between a 1% wipe and a kill sometimes.

You're also not considering the fact that the tank also sees increased rage generation through the windfury totem. With that as well as careful usage of Soul Shatter from the warlock, you should be fine in the threat department.

Our Warlocks do pretty good dps, but i don't think we ever used Tranquil air over WoA