To match the insane strength potion over the 120s cooldown(optimistic estimate of 10dps*120s ~= 1200 damage), those 4 hits only need to average about 300 damage(with misses/dodges/glancing/crits factored in), which is easily achievable. Haste Potions get even better when used during Bloodlust or in conjunction with other haste effects.
I was looking through my herbalist's bags the other day and noticed that [Flame Cap] adds fire damage to melee attacks. Quick testing revealed that it does work in cat form and has a proc rate in the range of 10-20%(with my unscientific sample set of one use). It's on the same cooldown as a healthstone, but it should work out to be a small dps boost. I'll do more specific testing during my raids next week.
I would like the see where you got that figure from, just for interests sake, as I've always heard paladins talk about windfury how warriors talk about windfury; that it's of so much benefit it's almost not worth having a paladin DPSing if they aren't getting it.
My math was off on this, I was using WF * Average Hit instead of WF/Hits*Total Damage like I should have. Doing it properly, WF was just under 10% of this paladins DPS, though they had a high number of WF procs (9 with 7.6 being the average for his white attacks), average WF would be 8% of their DPS. But this isn't an argument about WF, if you run 3 shamans, 2 groups can get WF
It is very true that Druids get more AP from UR, I don't think that's ever in debate, as for the Value of AP, using the spreadsheets we can see that 1 DPS is about 8.64 AP for top end Rogues, compared to 4.75 AP for druids. I'll look into Paladins and Warriors in a bit, but I doubt they are lower than 6 AP per DPS. This is mostly because a large portion of their DPS is from base Weapon DPS, and Flat modifiers to their attacks (or spell damage)
If you can overwrite rips, that rotation might work. Here is the rotation I'll try:
1. Mangle (Cat)
5. Rip right before Mangle wears off
I use an addon called Classtimer and it sometimes didn't show the mangle debuff even when i knew I had it active on the boss. That's because it was only set up to show Mangle(cat). I was able to add just Mangle to it and it now shows up whether the Mangle(cat) is active or just the Mangle is active. Might be a way to easily see which version of Mangle is active without having to mouseover the debuff on the boss all the time.
Last edited by Sarasper : 02/05/08 at 12:27 AM.
Reason: Fixed quote
Not sure if this is known, but while doing some Rage calculations during a debate about Crit vs % Damage and Rage generation for Arms Warriors I discovered a discrepancy in the formula commonly known. As it stands here is the current known formula:
Damage = Damage delt from white attack
WpnSpeed = BASE Weapon swing speed
Factor = 3.5 MH normal, 7.0 MH crit
What I discovered with multiple tests is that a Druid crit actually uses the NON-Crit Factor in the formula. I realise this isn't a huge deal but I haven't found it documented anywhere. Its easy to test, just go hit something and stick the number in the formula for a non-crit, you'll find its correct while the crit factor wasn't (if you had crit that is). Bug or intended nerf on our rage? Thoughts?
Did you just add it to ClassTimer or also removed the other two mangles?
I have all 3 mangles in classtimer: Mangle(cat), Mangle(bear), and Mangle. They are all treated different such that no matter which mangle is active, by having all 3 in the addon you can see which is actually applied to the mob.
12 second cycles, no matter your crit rate.
Constant uptime of mangle, for rogue's rupture. (note: the double-mangle won't affect them unless they time rupture right)
5 CP rips every time
Frees up a debuff slot (rip) half the time.
So what are you doing as a finisher the first cycle, Nothing? Non-mangled Rip is better DPS than using the energy for another shred/mangle.
After doing some math and testing, my rotation turns out to be less DPS than a regular cycle with no double-mangles.
Astrylian's rotation was better, but won't work due to the fact that you can't override a rip in some siuations (i.e. it's trinketed). If you add another mangle (step 4b), it works out:
1) Apply Mangle (Cat).
2) Shred to 4+cp.
2b) On 2nd+ loops through the rotation, previous Rip wears off here
3) Mangle the instant Mangle (Cat) will wear off, to apply Mangle.
5) Shred to 5+cp.
6) Rip right before Mangle wears off.
7) Start over, applying Mangle (Cat).
Unfortunately, this still isn't a DPS gain.
The only time I'm going to use this technique, is if I won't be able to get 5 CP before mangle runs out. Then I'd start at step 3.
I think, in proper context now, it's more important to avoid getting in a bad mangle scenario than to maximize the good scenarios, i.e. waiting until a mangle expires before you rip so that you don't rip during Mangle(Cat) and overwrite it with a Mangle.
Other ideas include offsetting your mangles, or mangling every 8s instead of every 12s, but that's trading shreds for mangles, and I don't think it's worth the difficulty. And misses/dodges of rips/mangles also have to be minimized-- hit capped with no expertise, the chances of missing a mangle or missing the rip after the mangle is 0.056 + (.944 * 0.056) = 10.9% chance of failure of double-buffing.
What might be more interesting is seeing if two druids in the raid can come up with some sort of double-mangling scenario that benefits one or both ferals doubly. Can Mangle(bear) be overwritten by a second feral's Mangle(cat) to produce a Mangle in a similar method?
At the very least, I'm happy to discover why my custom Pitbull buffs don't always show my mangle debuffs!
Indeed. The big thing to see is that (at least with only one feral), it's not possible to get more double-mangle rips than 0-mangle rips, using the normal cycle, and that using an abnormal cycle requires too precise timing and has a high failure rate, for a very meager dmg increase, if any at all.
More interesting may be the play between a bear and a cat... Gunna be on before raid at all tonight, Allev?
Using a typical rotation, we can't avoid the fact that you'll have the same number of 0mangle rips as 2mangle rips, right?... So what? That's still a damage boost. We typically get 130% rip damage all the time. Isn't 100% half the time and 169% half the time for an average of 134.5% better? That's a 3.46% dps increase, just for getting the timing right. Additionally, we can just always use our trinkets on the doublemangle rip, and not on the 0mangle rips.
Sure, we have naturally high AP, and UR would add a higher absolute amount of AP for us as opposed to a Rogue. The real question is, can we translate that raw AP to actual DPS more effectively than a Rogue? I'm a huge fan of 2 x Enh Shaman tank/melee groups anyway.
The answer is yes.
A rogue gets about 300ap from UR, we get around 500 (at my level, beginning Hyjal/BT).
On white hits, we get (without counting crits or armor) 7% of our ap into damage per second.
Rogues get a little more because they are dual wielding, 11%.
So for white hits, we get an additionnal 36 dps, and they get an additionnal 32 dps. The intersting part comes here:
Their main attack, say as combat, is Sinister Strike. This attack deals 100% of one swing's worth of damage, plus a little bonus. If the rogue uses a 2.6 weapon, 300 ap will add 56 damage to each hit, and in turn 56 more damage to each Sinister Strike. Sinister Strike costs 40 energy, and I will compare it to our Shred, which costs 42 energy.
Our shred inflicts 225% of our base damage, + a fixed value, and then multiplied by 30% thanks to mangle. Since we hit at 1 per second, with 500 ap we get an extra 36 damage per hit. On a Shred, this equals a bonus of 105 damage.
This is a very crude estimation, but I think it partially goes to the point :p