Ok, looks like time to start my homework for skilling up LW, if for no other reason than having drums avail is one way I can improve my contribution convincingly. Are there any resources on powering up LW that are updated for 2.4 or TBC in general? My google fu is pretty strong but most of the guides seem to be older, maybe the skilling hasn't really changed. AH farming for mats is likely to be a complete headache on my server, will do it by hand I think.
So for SSC nature or frost gear is generally a "grab what you can if you see it" moreso than a "you're going to be a dead noob if you're not maxed", so long as I'm on adds duty rather than the MT? I expect I'll be on adds mostly anyway.
Its a lot easier, and a whole set costs what, 50g off the ah? We had 2 druids get between 100 and 150 of both frost and nature and they can swipe tank most of the adds pretty easily.
If my group decides to aim for TK, what are the resist requirements for the roles in there?
None. Well, depending on what strat you use for kael, you might want one person with fr, but there are ways to do it with none as well.
So for SSC nature or frost gear is generally a "grab what you can if you see it" moreso than a "you're going to be a dead noob if you're not maxed", so long as I'm on adds duty rather than the MT? I expect I'll be on adds mostly anyway.
My suggestion is to get pieces from the AH for those slots that have resist enchants available as well. Basically, try to concentrate your resists on as few items as possible so that you have flexibility elsewhere. Get a JCer to make you the neck piece for whichever resist you are lacking the most. You don't need a ton, but the more you have the easier you make it on your healers.
Really though, the Hydross fight is basically about one thing - being able to transition him back and forth between phases. Your DPS needs to stop DPS at the appropriate time and the tanks need to pick up the adds right away. Once you get the transition down it's a snap. A bit more DPS may help in that it can eliminate one or two transitions, but it's more important to be able to do those transitions like clockwork so that shouldn't matter anyway.
Originally Posted by Jheusse
If my group decides to aim for TK, what are the resist requirements for the roles in there?
You'll want a bit of arcane resistance for the Void Reaver fight. I think 100-150 unbuffed, but it's been awhile so I'm not sure. It's definitely not more than that. For A'lar you might put on some fire resist, but I personally never used any tanking both A'lar and the adds at different times.
Since BGs on Bloodlust Alliance seem to be akin to going to Chuck E. Cheese on "Hannah Montana is giving away free meth samples day", I was hoping to minimize BG gear, but it looks unavoidable.
OT maybe, but Bloodlust BGs seem much more pleasant now days as alliance.
Originally Posted by Jheusse
So for SSC nature or frost gear is generally a "grab what you can if you see it" moreso than a "you're going to be a dead noob if you're not maxed", so long as I'm on adds duty rather than the MT? I expect I'll be on adds mostly anyway.
If my group decides to aim for TK, what are the resist requirements for the roles in there?
"grab what you can if you see it" as stated earlier.. aim for 100 or so of frost/nature resist unbuffed and you'll be fine, with AH greens it should be easy to get over 150+ unbuffed which is plenty for tanking 2-3 adds.
As for TK, you don't need any resists whatsoever..
Last edited by Melthar : 04/10/08 at 12:07 PM.
Reason: Formatting
So for SSC nature or frost gear is generally a "grab what you can if you see it" moreso than a "you're going to be a dead noob if you're not maxed", so long as I'm on adds duty rather than the MT? I expect I'll be on adds mostly anyway.
Yeah, you'll be on adds rather than MT. Warriors and palas get craftable epic resistance gear for both schools, we get none. AH greens are perfectly good. 3-4 pieces should do, I had approx 100 unbuffed both frost and nature, and some weeks didn't even get AotW / Frost Res Aura/Totems.
Just remember, armor is 100% useless here (elemental damage ignores it), so cloth is good, but stay uncrittable (they're level 71 so 405 defense or equivalent resi mix will do)
Originally Posted by Jheusse
If my group decides to aim for TK, what are the resist requirements for the roles in there?
A whopping zero on Al'ar, Solarian and Void Reaver. On Kael if you're on phoenix duty it might be nice to have some FR, and you'll have to buy the badge FR gear anyway for tanking adds on Anetheron / Illidan. Just remember that Kael's nukes and Telonicus' grenades ignore resistance, only phoenixes are resistable.
My suggestion is to get pieces from the AH for those slots that have resist enchants available as well. Basically, try to concentrate your resists on as few items as possible so that you have flexibility elsewhere. Get a JCer to make you the neck piece for whichever resist you are lacking the most. You don't need a ton, but the more you have the easier you make it on your healers.
Really though, the Hydross fight is basically about one thing - being able to transition him back and forth between phases. Your DPS needs to stop DPS at the appropriate time and the tanks need to pick up the adds right away. Once you get the transition down it's a snap. A bit more DPS may help in that it can eliminate one or two transitions, but it's more important to be able to do those transitions like clockwork so that shouldn't matter anyway.
You'll want a bit of arcane resistance for the Void Reaver fight. I think 100-150 unbuffed, but it's been awhile so I'm not sure. It's definitely not more than that. For A'lar you might put on some fire resist, but I personally never used any tanking both A'lar and the adds at different times.
You don't need any AR for VR, none what so ever. Regarding Al'ar, none is really required their either. Although, one such strat, involves holding all the adds from phase 1, and then AoEing them down at the start of phase 2, to instantly take ~20% off Al'ar's health. If you do that, its recommended that the OT doing so wears full FR so that the adds explosion when they die during the AoE don't instantly kill him.
I compiled this list and followed it 1-375 after 2.3 was implemented, because i couldn't see a good up to date one around.
Since the knothide armour kits and the drums got easier, its now a lot easier and cheaper to level leatherworking- but a lot of existing LW guides have not been updated for this yet.
1-300:
1-35 - 35x Light Armor Kit (v) - 1 Light Leather
36-55 - 20x Cured Light Hide (ah) - 1 Light Hide
56-85 - 30x Embossed Leather Gloves (v) - 3 Light Leather
86-100 - 15x Fine Leather Belt (keep) - 6 Light Leather
101-120 - 25x Cured Medium Hide (keep) - 1 Medium Hide
120-125 - 10x Fine Leather Belt (keep) - 6 Light Leather
126-150 - 25x Dark Leather Belt (ah/de) - 1 Fine Leather Belt, 1 Cured Medium Hide
151-160 - 10x Cured Heavy Hide (keep) - 1 Heavy Hide
161-180 - 20x Heavy Armor Kit (ah) - 5 Heavy Leather
181-190 - 10x Barbaric Shoulders (ah) - 8 Heavy Leather, 1 Cured Heavy Hide
191-195 - 5x Dusky Bracers (ah) - 16 Heavy Leather
196-205 - 10x Dusky Belt (ah) - 10 Heavy Leather, 2 Bolt of Silk Cloth, 1 Iron Buckle
*** consider starting leatherworking specialisation quest at 205***
206-230 - 25x Nightscape Headband (ah) - 5 Thick Leather
231-250 - 20x Nightscape Pants (ah) - 14 Thick Leather
251-260 - 10x Nightscape Boots (ah) - 16 Thick Leather
261-270 - 10x Wicked Leather Gauntlets (de) - 8 Rugged Leather
271-285 - 15x Wicked Leather Bracers (de) - 8 Rugged Leather
286-300 - 15x Wicked Leather Headband (de) - 12 Rugged Leather
requires approx 230 gold, although you'll get a lot of that back.
Light Leather x 275
Heavy Leather x 410
Thick Leather x 565
Rugged Leather x 380
Light Hide x 20
Medium Hide x 25
Heavy Hide x 10
Bolt of Silk Cloth x 20
Iron Buckle x 10
Note that Wicked Leather Gauntlets is a (1) limited recipe from Werg Thickblade in Tirisfal Glades- you could do 260-265 via the yellow Nightscape Boots, and then Wicked Leather Bracers from 265-285 if you don't want to travel or the recipe isn't there, but then you'll need more thick leather (at least 80, maybe double that) to compensate.
300-375:
300-310 - 20x Knothide Leather (keep) - 5 Knothide Leather Scraps
310-325 - 18x Knothide Armor Kit (ah) - 4 Knothide Leather
325-335 - 21x Heavy Knothide Leather (keep) - 5 Knothide Leather
335-340 - 5x Thick Draenic Vest (DE) - 14 Knothide Leather, 3 Rune Thread
340-350 - 10x Felscale Breastplate (ah) - 14 Knothide Leather, 3 Fel Scales, 3 Rune Thread
350-360 - 10x Heavy Knothide Armor Kit (ah) - 3 Heavy Knothide Leather
360-365 - Continue with heavy armor kits. (took me 16)
Or: 5x Heavy Clefthoof Boots - 2 Rune Thread, 4 Primal Earth, 4 Heavy Knothide, 16 Thick Clefthoof Leather
Or: 5x Felstalker Bracers - 2 Rune Thread, 4 Primal Air, 6 Heavy Knothide, 6 Fel Hide, 6 Crystal Infused Leather
365-370 - 5x Drums of Battle - 6 Heavy Knothide Leather, 4 Thick Clefthoof Leather
370-375 - 5-10x Drums of Panic (took me 6) - 6 Heavy Knothide Leather, 4 Fel Hide
- Heavy Knothide Leather recipe is a (1) limited from Cro Threadstrong in Shattrath, fairly quick respawn.
- requires ~757 Knothide Leather (including what you make from Scraps), 30 Fel Scales, and 90 runethread to get to 350*.
cost 300-350 is ~300g, but can disenchant/AH the greens and armour kits.
(* at 350 skill you can use but not yet make the Drums of Battle)
- requires approx 440 knothide leather to get from 350-375
best place to get:
Fel Scales - shardhide boars south of, and around, ogri'la
Fel Hide - warp chasers south of skettis lake, and warp hounds in forge camp north of ogri'la (ie when doing your daily quests)
Clefthoof - clefthoofs west of garadar
Knothide - clefthoofs and talbuks west of garadar
Heh, here I am reading Void Reaver's attacks and Pound and Orbs being arcane based. Figured as OT or melee I'd need some AR. Sounds like it's more like the Curator, if you're MT you don't need AR and if you're the OT/boltsoaker you don't mind the AR bolts much, you just wear your trinket for grins and say "thank you for the rage".
Thanks very much for the breakdown spookeh, though I'll have to adapt it slightly for Alliance side.
And on the OT note thanks for the update on Bloodlust BGs, I had unpleasant experiences in them and haven't been back in a while. (and you have to admit the Chuck E. Cheese line was too cool not to use ). Warcraftrealms shows a more even breakdown than in the past (though my poor ret pally is still screwed for his IBS).
Is it safe to say that a ferals are sought in SSC or TK because of we OT so well rather than pure MT or pure dps? Looking at the fights it seema lot of the multi-role we excel at.
Wicked Leather Gauntlets are probably available alliance side but just from a different vendor. apart from that, i don't think there's much which is Horde-specific, although i really didn't check.
We're starting Lurker atm, and have a few prots and several ferals. so the prot tanks, and 3 kitties dps lurker.
Then when he submerges, 3 bears tank the Guardian adds which appear on the main island. Once lurker is back, we go kitty again - the perfect example of a hybrid class.
If you want to do tribal leatherworking (gives access to a BoP 3-piece leather boomkin / healer set at 375 Windhawk Armor - Item Sets - World of Warcraft which imo is the only useful specialisation items for a druid, even if you're feral) then the thick leather bit between 205 and 250 looks like this:
-do these in exactly this order, starting already at 205 skill.
-the travelling you need to do for the tribal quest is Jangdor Swiftstrider in Feralas, then Una in Thunder Bluff, then Se'Jib near Grom'gol
-turtle scales are a bit of a pain. they have a 50% drop rate, but you need 112 of them!
turtles are on the coast near taranis / steamwheedle port, have around 2-3k hp. is possibly 3 hours of grinding, but should give you a lot of the thick leather you need as well.
-everything* in this section is needed for quest hand-ins. if you're going for a specialisation, might as well get the max skill points for it.
*not quite everything. you only need 2 nightscape headbands and pants, but will make about 12 of each; put the spares on AH.
-you need 11 wildvine, probably from the AH
-you don't need to farm turtle scales, you can buy them off the AH if you want
-you don't even need to make any turtle scale armor pieces, you can buy them off the AH too, but then you'll need to make more nightscape stuff, see the first post.
-turtle scale gloves is a (1) limited recipe from Jangdor Swiftstrider in Feralas
if you don't buy any turtle armor, the total 1-300 mats are changed to this:
Light Leather x 275
Heavy Leather x 410
Thick Leather x 555
Rugged Leather x 400
Light Hide x 20
Medium Hide x 25
Heavy Hide x 20
Thick Hide x 2
Deeprock Salt x2
Turtle Scale x 112
Wildvine x 11
Bolt of Silk Cloth x 40
Iron Buckle x 10
-Note, I really recommend buying the turtle scales or the turtle armor off the AH, to save yourself the demeaning task of hours killing mobs 30 levels below you. If you buy all the armor, you'll only get skillups here from making the wildvine armor, so will need to follow the original guide more closely)
Heh, here I am reading Void Reaver's attacks and Pound and Orbs being arcane based. Figured as OT or melee I'd need some AR. Sounds like it's more like the Curator, if you're MT you don't need AR and if you're the OT/boltsoaker you don't mind the AR bolts much, you just wear your trinket for grins and say "thank you for the rage".
Thanks very much for the breakdown spookeh, though I'll have to adapt it slightly for Alliance side.
And on the OT note thanks for the update on Bloodlust BGs, I had unpleasant experiences in them and haven't been back in a while. (and you have to admit the Chuck E. Cheese line was too cool not to use ). Warcraftrealms shows a more even breakdown than in the past (though my poor ret pally is still screwed for his IBS).
Is it safe to say that a ferals are sought in SSC or TK because of we OT so well rather than pure MT or pure dps? Looking at the fights it seema lot of the multi-role we excel at.
Just to get it straight. No need for Resi Gear in TK for Druids. I asked my Healers in SSC if they would go through a test with the Cats and Bears in Damage Equipment at Hydross. It worked out and we gained some DPS for the fight. So no need there as well. The first thing I came a cross were Resist gear is needed is MH Anetheron if you are OTing the Infernals.
Is it safe to say that a ferals are sought in SSC or TK because of we OT so well rather than pure MT or pure dps? Looking at the fights it seema lot of the multi-role we excel at.
We also make excellent MTs on Leotheras' elf form (the quick threat generation and use of proactive DoTs to grab aggro help due to his threat reset), and Morogrim (his high, spikey damage tends to be less spikey on us)
We also make excellent MTs on Leotheras' elf form (the quick threat generation and use of proactive DoTs to grab aggro help due to his threat reset), and Morogrim (his high, spikey damage tends to be less spikey on us)
My guild runs 2 feral druids in its 25 mans, I embrace the DPS side of our build and do it every chance i get when not MT/OT a fight. However, the other feral tends to stay in bear form with tank gear on even when we are called upon to DPS a boss. His arguement is that since he speced 5 points into Feral Aggression(something Dukes didnt bother to suggest as a beneficial talent on the opening page), it benefits the MT and thus the raid, to stay in bear form and keep it up as opposed to switching to cat form and DPS the boss down faster. My thought is that if he went kitty form the boss would die faster and thus be less need for the warrior to have the reduction...
I have read this forum regarding the difference between a warriors demo shout vs our Demo Roar and how warrios can overtake it with only 3 points into Improved. I have not seen where it might be better for a druid to do this though in place of DPSing. Im looking for a consensus that will either shut me up or that i may show my officers so that we can implent a change.
Lets assume my MT warrior doesnt spec into imp demo shout but still keeps it up 90% of the time and that we are dealing with the first 4 bosses in both Hyjal and BT where only one MT is needed and occsionally an OT or two for infernals or adds. Is staying bear worth it for this minor reduction as opposed to the DPS we are losing out on in the fight. Supposedly by also staying bear theoretically, he could pick up aggro if the MT goes down. I have only seen this happen one time and that was when our MT went down before DPS really got a chance to open up, The rest of the time its a nightmare.
Also, I noticed that we can finally use items like [Plans: Adamantite Weightstone] but a couple of druids have mentioned that blizzard removed this ability. I have not been able to find anything regarding it being removed in this forum or in the patch notes so will somone please confirm one way or the other?
After looking through the forums am i right to assume that enchants still do not get the multiplyer buff that gems and base stats do? (eg a [Design: Solid Star of Elune] adds more total health than a +12 stam enchant) I know some enchants are subjective but why would a druid or even Rawr for that matter suggest using the 12 stam to bracers over the +4 to all stats? Is 80 hp really going to be the decding point in a boss fight compared to the increased (ever so slightly) dodge/armor you gain? Also it would seem that using a [Elixir of Ironskin] while keeping the [Item not found!] offers more overall mitigation than [Item not found!] + whatever else unless you are hurting that bad to be crit immune, TRUE? or is there a better combo I havent read about yet?
Feral Aggression is a pretty poor talent for 25mans. At least one warrior should have the imp demo shout talent, and keep it up. Most likely the MT, but the OT could do it too, so MT has time for more threat generation. The difference between even unimp demo shout and imp demo roar is minor, not even remotely close to worth staying in bearform for. If he's not tanking, he should be in dps gear, in cat form, dpsing.
Adamantite Weightstone works since 2.4, and I haven't seen anything to suggest they canceled that change.
Enchants and gems are handled identically for calculations. Both sources of stam will get multiplied by bear form. In fact, they're both calculated identically to stats directly on items, with the exception of armor enchants, which don't get multiplied by bear form.
Many bears are using Glyph of the Gladiator for its stamina. Gladiator and Defender are very different enchants, for different purposes. If you need mitigation, Defender. If you need survival, Gladiator. The fact that it adds a bit more crit reduction is just icing.
Ok... I wasn't. Neither was the portion of the original post which I quoted. Although my post appeared after yours they weren't really related, which was why I quoted the post to which I was replying.
Also it would seem that using a [Elixir of Ironskin] while keeping the [Item not found!] offers more overall mitigation than [Item not found!] + whatever else unless you are hurting that bad to be crit immune, TRUE? or is there a better combo I havent read about yet?
I was looking at the [Ring of the Stalwart Protector] today and it seems like a nice upgrade, but it is just about the only tanking ring that doesn't include defense on it. So, if you do switch to it you're pretty much guaranteed to be losing some defense. Switching to the [Item not found!] might help make up for that fact depending on what other gear you're using to make yourself crit immune.
Right now I've got too much defense/resilience as it is, so even making the switch with the rings I still wouldn't be able to fully utilize the crit avoidance from the [Item not found!]. I'm trying to find a way to regem away from defense and possibly make one other item swap that would let me use close to all of the resilience there.
In other words, it's useful to have it available in case it opens up other gear options for you.
The only good reason there has ever been for having feral aggression as a feral druid other than some freak thing where you're speccing it for 1 fight or something (ironically its a decently common talent for pvp resto builds on the way to feral charge, as its not like ferocity helps much, and any little bit less chance for that warrior to 2 shot you helps) was karazhan dps where most of the instance was immune to rip. Even then it was pretty weak.
I spec between resto and feral 3-4 times a week and every time there's basically 55 unquestionable talent choices, then 6 points that i kinda throw around between:
Savage Fury - now that it applies to essentially nothing other than cat mangle its pretty weak. 2 points for 20% on something you do at most 5 times a minute = meh
Natural Shapeshifter - nice, but not game breaking
The anti fear/stun talent
Nurturing instinct.
Since the buff to NI I've been going 2/2 NI, 2/2 SF, 2/3 NSs. Raid buffed I have ~1250 +healing and about 9k mana in full feral gear from just NI, Caster Weapon Swap (mod frequently used by casters/healers to dynamically change weapons), and s2 pants which are my only feral item that actually has +healing on them. If your other druid really wants to contribute to the tank's survival, a good macro that does the 2t5 instant regrowth on your target's target (ie, whoever the boss is targeting) and then swaps to healing weapons, and speccing NI are going to go a lot farther than Feral Aggression. In pug 25 mans (SSC, TK, Mag, Gruul on our server) or even guild stuff with a lot of friends that don't really raid and alts, if a healer or two dies early because they're some alt with 6k hp and I pop out and heal, I pretty routinely end up 3rd or fourth for healing done on fights in full feral gear (obviously swapping weapons). Once I make it, I'm going to start using [Assassin's Alchemist Stone] for times when I fully expect healers to die and me to start healing, as if there's a good chance of needing to heal, 40 mp5 makes up a lot of ground that the raw ap loses. I'm pretty comfortable being at 4-5th in damage if I don't have to emergency heal and having the mana to heal when i need to instead of 2-3 in damage when I don't have to emergency heal and oom and wiped when I do.
If your other druid is so interested in preserving life over doing damage, he'll be thrilled to help heal when needed over going afk in bear form all the time. Most likely he's just dumb.
Also, as a note on warriors, very few prot warriors have imp demo shout. Its mostly a dps warrior talent. Prot warriors can't really get everything they need from prot and imp demo, and imp thunderclap. There just aren't enough points. Being that all dps warriors are at least 10 points into fury, and unbridled wrath isn't really that amazing, its not too much of a sacrifice to get it. A dps warrior trying to do thunderclap however has to shift forms, er stances, to do it, which sucks, so prot warriors getting imp TC and dps warriors getting imp demo is a bit more common. Really only if you have 2 prot warriors that are specced around both being there, (ie, one gets imp TC, the other gets imp demo, and often commanding presence) would a prot warrior really be doing demo.
Astrylian, is there anyway to modify the Bear plugin to do an "enforce crit proof" under gear optimization? or a check-box that would "overvalue" being crit-proof, much in the same way that breaking a set-bonus causes a huge dps loss?
I'm having an extremely tough time right now trying to come up with a min/max tank set that still meets "critproof".
Currently, I'm resorting to simply using the 18stam/20resil helm enchant, the 15resil to chest enchant, and 1 10resil gem in my shoulders in order to hit this... but I feel like maybe this isn't ideal... like maybe I should be dropping my T6 bracers or something in place of Vindicators, or losing my commendation of kaelthas in place of shadowmoon insignia.
I mean, currently, if I just follow the bear gear rankings from Rawr, I end up being like 1% crittable, which is too much imo.
With that said, does anyone have a good "ideal tank setup" posted already? If so, could someone link the post, b/c I can't seem to locate one using search that is up to date with Sunwell stuff. I've collected an assorted variety of loot from 2.4, and its difficult to fit them in while remaining "crit-proof", since none ofthem have defense.
Feral Aggression is fine for Kara-level guilds, or guilds where the feral is the first or second tank and will rarely (if ever) DPS, or guilds where warrior tanks aren't present (pally/feral tanks only). While you can say "one warrior should get imp shout", that's only true if there are multiple warriors: shout isn't part of the default or recommended warrior MT skillset, with the exception of Brutallus tanks (where you need Curse of Recklessness up, and typically want only 1 warrior tanking/debuffing).
On the other hand, staying in bear form is silly. Regular warrior shout is worth about the same as 3/5 FA roar. You can't cap out demo roar like you can with improved warrior shout when Curse of Recklessness is up. And the other druid can always go cat, then shift bear->roar->shift cat.
Alternately, the feral will do a better job keeping the tank alive by telling the warrior to keep shout up and healing him in feral gear (just keeping lifebloom stacks up) than by keeping roar up.
Currently my guild is working on Brutallus, with me and a prot warrior tanking. I was perusing the last few pages about Brutallus and see quite a few druids posting with some pretty crazy stats. Now, some background on my tanking gear / t6, since we weren't widely used on big hitters (though I did tank Teron a few times), I homogenized my gear quite a bit between cat and bear, opting for agility, agi/sta, and hit/agi gems over pure stamina, defense, etc. The posters I have looked at through armory to compare gear are always in cat gear so its hard to get a guide.
We have hit enrage a few times with DPS short, but I have been instagibbed quite a bit also, though I tend to believe that is more on the no staggered heals side over anything else, though I do also realize if I shot for more stamina gems I could definitely soak an additional hit when there is a slow heal also. I usually run with [Shadowmoon Insignia] and [Commendation of Kael'thas].
I guess what I'm wondering is, is my current gem/enchants/gear setup in need of some tweaking? I seem to be taking about 300 more damage than Beace(EU)/Tagrat(EU)/Kovah(US) on average according to WWS parses while my avoidance seems lower than theirs also. I would think with my higher agi I would at least lean towards higher overall avoidance.
Some ideas would be great, I would really like to avoid changing gems, but I would rather get us a kill than be stubborn on gems at this point, my standard group the last few raids has been Me, Hunter, Hunter, Shaman, and either another Hunter or an extra rogue.
04/10/08, 11:26 AM
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