I am still looking for a second blue gem to make your meta work.
P.S. If your guild prefers warriors in an encounter where,
there is a heavy melee hitting boss, the sunwell aura that makes survival tanks kings,
and you can give about 300dps more than a prot warr (cat form pew pew when not tanking),
I think you should start questioning their decision.
As long as raids are new to the encounter, I would say they are right in general.
If not for tanking, a Feral Druid is not the best choice, although your gear is superb.
2 Comments on your gear though:
1. Your Meta seems to be inactive.
2. +4 Stats on rings is superior to +2 weapon damage in a raid environment.
If you are doing 1350-1400dps on for ex Teron with that gear there must be something you are doing wrong? Some wws's would be nice.
I do that DPS in the MT group, basically the "buff" I see is that I basically get to 4005 AP (some more crit with pala blessings) and that's it.
edit: You mention not using rip when having bad crit streaks, does that mean you don't use 4cp rips?
No, when I have bad crit streaks I can't keep up the rip DoT running for the whole DPS rotation. Other times I crit so much I am at 5 points and 100 energy with 6 rip seconds left on the previous application.
1. Your Meta seems to be inactive.
Possible, I am in the middle of regemming
2. +4 Stats on rings is superior to +2 weapon damage in a raid environment.
I'll check with Rawr later considering the buffs I really get. Still what I was asking in the first post was to know how much "help" I'd bring to a melee group, if it was worth it.
I think you should start questioning their decision.
They loathe people that complain or "question" and being the "last arrived" won't make you popular.
Still what I was asking in the first post was to know how much "help" I'd bring to a melee group, if it was worth it.
OK, sorry. I found the older discussion here to be helpful, maybe you'll find something there, that can support your position as melee-dps-class on Brutallus.
Assuming your tank gear is up to par for Brutallus and your guild is really interested in progression, they would ditch the 2nd Prot Warrior and use a Prot/Feral combo. If we didn't have our second T6 Feral get smitten by a severe case of "real-life" recently we'd likely be using 2 Ferals on this fight.
"Why bring a Cat Feral doing less dps than a Ret or another "pure" dps class on a dps-race encounter?" is not the question they should be asking. Faerie Fire, LotP and Mangle? All those come "free" if you use a Bear to tank - the mind boggles to be honest.
Makes me wonder why they recruited you in the first place and more importantly why their previous Feral left
Anyway, more pertinent to your enquiry, Whether the Ret buff is better for overall raid dps than your probable better psersonal dps plus LotP crit buff/Faerie Fire/Mangle - it would depend a lot on the raid composition and your group composition.
If you don't bring a moonkin, you don't get faerie fire up on the target (restos can't cast FF in tree form, so it's a huge mana drain on them, or you lose tree buffs). That's like giving 600 armor penetration to every physical DPS in the raid. For yourself, that's 50 DPS; for other melee classes it is more (70 DPS for an 1800 DPS rogue).
Keeping mangle up increases bleed damage by all bleeds, notably rogue rupture. This may add 20-30 DPS for each rogue (24 DPS on a spreadsheet that puts one of my guild's rogues at 1800 DPS).
You get one innervate, this may or may not be useful depending on your raid makeup. If someone will be able to do higher DPS with more mana and they have spirit on gear, innervate can claim a decent chunk of DPS.
You probably don't add more than a ret pally, but by not using you as a tank they're out 50 DPS times at least 6 (hunters + melee) plus the added mangle DPS (25 DPS per rogue, or 50-75) plus the damage you'd be doing in catform when the other tank has the mob (a good 300 DPS over a prot tank in prot gear, at a minimum). So, a good 650-700 DPS if you don't have a moonkin in the raid for one feral to be tanking (and none DPSing). Not counting LoTP.
LoTP is nice in adding its crits/healing, but even in the melee group, it at most provides similar raid DPS returns as FF. Mangle isn't worthless to the raid.
No, when I have bad crit streaks I can't keep up the rip DoT running for the whole DPS rotation. Other times I crit so much I am at 5 points and 100 energy with 6 rip seconds left on the previous application.
I know I'm nowhere near you guys in progression, but this particular point I think I can help with.
The answer, from what I understand, is to keep shredding. If you get to 5CP really fast and your Rip isn't done yet, keep shredding until your Rip runs out, then reapply. Don't FB, and obviously don't just sit there.
-In our country, any CBC reporter can dream of becoming head of state.
I know I'm nowhere near you guys in progression, but this particular point I think I can help with.
The answer, from what I understand, is to keep shredding. If you get to 5CP really fast and your Rip isn't done yet, keep shredding until your Rip runs out, then reapply. Don't FB, and obviously don't just sit there.
There is a balance point between whether you shred, or just reapply a rip before it finishes ticking. The timing of that depends on your personal stats as well as the leftover ticks on rip.
6 second rule can apply for most: if >6 seconds left on your rip, shred. If < 6 seconds left on your rip, reapply it.
There is a balance point between whether you shred, or just reapply a rip before it finishes ticking. The timing of that depends on your personal stats as well as the leftover ticks on rip.
6 second rule can apply for most: if >6 seconds left on your rip, shred. If < 6 seconds left on your rip, reapply it.
Uhhh... No. A) You can't usually. B) You'd be wasting a ton of damage if you did.
There is a balance point between whether you shred, or just reapply a rip before it finishes ticking. The timing of that depends on your personal stats as well as the leftover ticks on rip.
6 second rule can apply for most: if >6 seconds left on your rip, shred. If < 6 seconds left on your rip, reapply it.
Most of the time re-application is not possible due to trinkets or other effects.
Uhhh... No. A) You can't usually. B) You'd be wasting a ton of damage if you did.
Don't clip your rips.
I just keep shredding.
By the way, GREAT program Rawr, /clap
I just have an issue, probably due to noobness: why when I click "optimize" the software says "300,486" in a progress bar (I suppose it's the permutations found) but when it ends I get just a totally white paper doll?
I just have an issue, probably due to noobness: why when I click "optimize" the software says "300,486" in a progress bar (I suppose it's the permutations found) but when it ends I get just a totally white paper doll?
You didn't mark any items/gems/enchants as available.
A new "easy to obtain" (ie no high raid level gear) list would look something like:
Helm: T4
Neck: Shattered Sun Pendent of Might
Shoulders: T4
Back: Drape of the Dark Reavers or Razorscale Battlecloak
Chest: S3
Wrist: Vindicators Dragonhide
Gloves: Handwraps of the Aggressor
Waist: Belt of Silent Path (Belt of One Hundred Deaths is better but thats from Vashj)
Legs: Trousers of the Scryer' Retainer
Feet: Nyn'ja Tabi boots
Ring 1: Angelista's Revenge
Ring 2: Ancestral Ring of Conquest (the ZA timed ring is better but harder to obtain)
Trinkets: DST, Shard of Contempt, Bloodlust brooch, Darkmoon: Card Crusade etc. Lotsa options here
Weapon: Staff of the Forest Lord
Idol: Everbloom (Idol of the Raven Goddess if in a high dps group)
The T4 shoulders is almost guarenteed to be better to use than anything in that slot. The helm could be replaced by S3 helm and the T4 gloves could be used and it would be almost exactly the same DPS. The engineering helms (Tier 1 and 2) are both better than T4 as well, assuming you can use either the chest or gloves for the set bonus.
Sunwell gear is also an option if you farm trash or buy it off the AH. The gloves are insanely good, as is the LW chest.
Something to keep in mind when using any type of DPS calculator is raid composition, not just buffs. If you only have 2t6 then Rawr will probably tell you to equip those for the 2 piece set bonus over other individual items that may be higher stat wise in terms of DPS. But if you have a 2nd feral in the raid that is already keeping up mangle, this renders the 2t6 obsolete since you can remove mangle from a majority of your DPS cycle. Unless i have completely missed something
There is a balance point between whether you shred, or just reapply a rip before it finishes ticking. The timing of that depends on your personal stats as well as the leftover ticks on rip.
6 second rule can apply for most: if >6 seconds left on your rip, shred. If < 6 seconds left on your rip, reapply it.
Chiming in to agree that this is not at all the case. Reapplying Rip is 0 extra damage, Shred is >0 extra damage. Clipping Rips is bad.
you can't cut a rip short. you have to wait for it to expire before you reapply it.
You can however start your next rotation with 82 energy instead of only 40 energy.
You 'can' cut a rip short, of course you shouldn't.
If your AP has increased due to procs, temporary group/raid buffs, or if you've got a 5 point rip queued, and a 4 point running, you can and will overwrite a rip. I suppose it might be possible that overwriting the last seconds of a 4 point rip with a buffed 5 point might be a net dps gain, if you're somehow swimming in energy, but that seems pretty unlikely.
Last edited by Calen : 04/16/08 at 6:18 PM.
Reason: Can't seemed rather absolute. Perhaps the quoted poster meant "shouldn't"
The part about not being able to cut a rip short is quite untrue..
If your AP has increased due to procs, temporary group/raid buffs, or if you've got a 5 point rip queued, and a 4 point running, you can and will overwrite a rip. I suppose it might be possible that overwriting the last seconds of a 4 point rip with a buffed 5 point might be a net dps gain, if you're somehow swimming in energy, but that seems pretty unlikely.
I think he just meant you can't if you want to do well, not like you physically can't. Roughly 50% of the time you physically can't overwrite it, the other 50% you just shouldn't. Only with a ton of lucky crits on consecutive sets of combo points and Omen or 2t4 procs would you ever be in a situation where you were forced to hit something to burn off energy before rip finished ticking. Even then, you still would only have enough spare energy to throw in 1 extra shred, regen, then rip and mangle.
I have recently acquired an [Idol of the White Stag]; I have looked everywhere for some info on this, and all I see elsewhere is that it is worse than [Idol of Terror]. I also haven't found anything in this post about it specifically (or anyone on the forums for that matter). I'm not saying it is better, I just haven't seen any math on it. I agree that 65 agility is better than 94 attack power, but when you take other things into consideration (like the [Idol of Terror]'s proc chance of ~85% and its lasting of only 10sec) it seems like they are closer than people give it credit for.
Also, I wonder if anyone has done math on [Everbloom Idol] (which I have been using) versus the other two. I have seen many mixed messages, and am looking for some clarification.
It is generally accepted that the Everbloom Idol is the best feral DPS Idol. The Idol of Terror is considered the best for tanking, soloing and pvp.
The Idol of the White Stag was changed to last for 20 seconds, which, assuming you Mangled at the start of the fight, your first Rip would benefit from this and you could continue a normal dps cycle thereafter, Mangling after each Rip.
Quick napkin math; assume 2 shreds, one of which crits, one mangle, 11 white hits, 5 of which crit, one rip.
Everbloom Idol adds 88*1.3*3.03 = 347 dmg
Idol of the White Stag adds 94/14*2.25*1.3*3.03 + 94/14*1.6 + 94/14*16.15 + 94*.24 = 201 dmg
If no Shreds crit, the Everbloom Idol will still add more DPS than the Idol of the White Stag. If you have 4t6 the Everbloom Idol will still add more DPS than the Idol of the White Stag.
Please, use the Everbloom Idol for DPS.
For tanking; Agility adds to Dodge, Attack Power does not. So we use the idol that increases our tanking abilities when tanking.
Don't forget the crit idol from the epic flightform questline (can't remember name right now). Seems generally accepted this idol will add more raiddps than everbloom if you're in a melee group.
The [Idol of Feral Shadows] is liked more by Rawr, depending on what boss you're fighting and what debuffs you have up. It is best against high-armor mobs, of course.
It is generally accepted that the Everbloom Idol is the best feral DPS Idol. The Idol of Terror is considered the best for tanking, soloing and pvp.
The Idol of the White Stag was changed to last for 20 seconds, which, assuming you Mangled at the start of the fight, your first Rip would benefit from this and you could continue a normal dps cycle thereafter, Mangling after each Rip.
Quick napkin math; assume 2 shreds, one of which crits, one mangle, 11 white hits, 5 of which crit, one rip.
Everbloom Idol adds 88*1.3*3.03 = 347 dmg
Idol of the White Stag adds 94/14*2.25*1.3*3.03 + 94/14*1.6 + 94/14*16.15 + 94*.24 = 201 dmg
If no Shreds crit, the Everbloom Idol will still add more DPS than the Idol of the White Stag. If you have 4t6 the Everbloom Idol will still add more DPS than the Idol of the White Stag.
Please, use the Everbloom Idol for DPS.
For tanking; Agility adds to Dodge, Attack Power does not. So we use the idol that increases our tanking abilities when tanking.
Sweet man, this is what I've always believed to be true, its nice to see some math. I've always tanked/PVPed in Terror (for the dodge/crit) and DPSed in Everbloom. I just was handed the White Stag the other day and it is pretty sweet (I really like it because of the red halo it makes over your head!)
In terms of [Idol of the Raven Goddess], I generally use this when I'm with 4 other DPS. Sometimes I'll be with a Resto shaman and hunters/rogue (for agi totems); in this case, I tend to use the Everbloom.
[edit]I really should be using my Idol of the Raven Goddess more often; since my guild's DPS is really strong, the crit bonus is even stronger. I am basically always with physical DPS anyways (dur 5% crit chance), so I am basically going to make that Raven Goddess my main DPS trinket.
2. +4 Stats on rings is superior to +2 weapon damage in a raid environment.
I triple checked and unless Rawr is wrong, with my specific gear setup, my +2 damage with raid buff is still giving me 0.3 to 0.7 (depending on the buffs combo, drums etc) DPS more than +4 stats.
BTW I got the T6 bracer now and the +2 damage is still the way to go *stated by Rawr* (that is, I did not run any math by myself, just using the program and adding the gem combos it is missing).
It is generally accepted that the Everbloom Idol is the best feral DPS Idol. The Idol of Terror is considered the best for tanking, soloing and pvp.
We are also supposed to play skillfully and use idols depending on the fight at hand. There's no "just use X" fixed rule, but adapting our flexible class to achieve the best results. The Raven Goddes idol is the typical example.
Regarding +4stats vs +2dmg... Which is better is a really tough calculation for Rawr to make, due to the rounding involved. The problem is that at some stat values, giving 4stats actually gives 5, from Kings, cause you were rounding down before, now you got enough to round up. Then you make a slight gear tweak, and suddenly, 4stats only gives 4. The way WoW rounds stats with multipliers (and Rawr is pretty accurate about predicting, but honestly not perfect), it makes the value of these small amounts bounce up and down alot.
However, at the end of the day, you're talking about 2dmg vs 4stats. Not exactly a huge deal, the difference would be measured in tenths of DPS points. Doesn't really matter if you're off.
However, at the end of the day, you're talking about 2dmg vs 4stats. Not exactly a huge deal, the difference would be measured in tenths of DPS points. Doesn't really matter if you're off.
I think, at the point where +2dmg vs +4stats are so close that rounding will make one enachant better than the other one, you should not only take DPS into your consideration. At that point you alredy know that neither enchant is notably worse when upgrading your gear, so I would advice enchanting +4stats at stick to it. I think, even if +2dmg might come out better in rawr, the difference is very minor. And you will have some additional benefits from stats than from dmg, which should at least equal out a minor difference.
04/16/08, 7:31 AM
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