Here's a quick question about Feral Talents.

How do Primal Tenacity and Predatory Instincts mesh (or do they).

PT gives you 15% fear/stun resist. PI gives you 15% chance to dodge AoE attacks. In the case of an AoE fear (Nightbane), do these effects stack? For something like Warstomp(AoE Stun), would PT/PI/Powerful Earthstorm Diamond stack to a 35% resistance?

When you wait for 81 energy, rip, mangle, powershift, it's really the same thing as waiting 12 seconds since you rip every 12 seconds. 30 powershifts is 30x580 mana= 17400, which is easily recoverable if JoW is up. If you don't have JoW in the raid then I can imaine it being difficult.

I don't really watch omen when im dps-ing except maybe at the very beginning because we don't do enough damage to pull aggro in mid-late fight. Power-shifting is incorporated as part of the combo point cycle.

I know about /cast !Cat Form and all that, all im saying is that you can powershift easily even if you're a pure clicker, which I imagine noone is here.

They stack, but I believe the aoe check and the fear resistance check is indepedent of one another, which makes them muliplicative

I was under the impression that JoW doesn't proc while you are in Cat/Bear Form, are you sure it does ?

I will double check when I have the chance. However I've been under the impression that it does. When server comes up i'll check.

I'd dare say that unless you clicked off Salvation, you should only have to watch Omen if something is seriously wrong with your tank, or you have an exceptional situation (say, Wild Magic on Kalecgos). Most everyone else should be pulling aggro off the tank before you do.

Second: after getting into the habit of powershifting as PART of your cycle rather than something external, you're no more likely to mess up doing it than messing up after a miss/dodge.

Of course, if your plan is to just hit those three buttons every time you hit 81 energy then you're going to already be messing up your powershift every time that you get a 2t4 proc or other energy gain outside of the normal gains. Powershifting isn't rocket science, but it's not simply as easy as pushing a button either.

Which is to say that there is some chance that it will get messed up, so the theoretical 70 DPS isn't going to be entirely accurate. It might be close, but noone is going to hit the theoretical maximum every time. I think that was Spookeh's point.

Personally, I think it is still clearly worthwhile, so I disagree with mhr_78 who doesn't think it's worth working into your DPS cycle, but it's still not simply as easy as pushing a button. There is some thought and reaction to the situation involved and it will get messed up from time to time.

No, slightly less. You could have both rolls be under 15, and you don't get double benefit to offset that. That would make it a 27.75% chance to resist an AoE fear, assuming they're multiplicative. I don't know if that's true or not, I never spec for PT.

Edit: Beaten.

Purely anecdotal, but I resisted 3/6 fears on Nightbane last night, and that's what got me thinking.

Its aggro wipes that I mainly need to watch omen for, like zul'jin, leotheras... if you have a short break to regen full energy, and you already have some combo points on the target, and some cooldowns up, you can burst very hard sometimes.

Also, isn't catform 830ish mana? I don't talent for it anyway.

Torpesh- ya thx that's what I meant

For us the options were either 2/8 tanks/healers, or 2/7 and a Shadow Embrace/Imp bot. And of course, the warlock did more DPS than an 8th healer. There was one particular week that, in addition to playing like shit, we were experimenting with not 'wasting' a raid slot on Affliction. After that night, we reverted to having one, and never looked back.

Anecdotally, tanks literally just stop gibbing (almost a night and day difference) with the help of both Shadow Embrace and Imp in the tank group, even with one less healer.

Edit: Your mileage may vary. Don't be afraid to experiment, is the best mindset to have.

Just a small aside on the topic of fears, but nightbane doesn't fear if you do enough damage. I think I've seen 2 fears in the last 2 months of doing Karazhan 1-2 times a week. Even with mostly badge/pvp/10man geared alts and such its pretty easy to do 25% of his hp before he fears if you have a druid, paly, or solid agro warrior tanking. If you're short on damage, you can also blow all your dps cooldowns in the first phase, then have any non aoeing ranged stay on nightbane while he's in the air is a big help, provided they're careful with dots not to have dots still ticking as nightbane lands. A single ranged person staying on him can take him down ~4%, meaning all the phases after that you only need to burn 21% of his hp instead of 25%. With 3 melee, 2 healers, and mostly alts we got nightbane to 29% while he was in the air from when he took off at 50% while the melee killed the adds. We had to stop damage on him on his last take off because we weren't sure if we could get the loot if we killed him in the air.

I have had the same experiences with Archimonde. In roughly 40 or so fears I had resisted 4. Maybe he bribes the RNG?

I was just stating how I got onto this train of thought. 100 fears would still leave significant room for streaky behaviour.

my understanding is...

aoe fear = 27.75% (pt * pi)

aoe stun = 32% ([pt + ped] * pi)

Please link up the reports you have read, I haven't seen any decent testing done so please provide your source.

I can't blame anyone for not testing as it would be very time consuming to get a decent sample size with and without the relevant talents, a few priests and an arena like Dire Maul or Stranglethorn Vale is the only way I can think of.
Simulating a three level difference would be good too, either with a lower level druid or through +hit gear/talents although I am assuming here that this would generate the same effect.

It's listed as such on the Druid-wiki at least, under Druid facts.

//edit: The Druid Wiki � Druid_Facts - very first item on the list.

//edit2: I don't know how Athinira tested that one, nor how they arrived at it as 'fact'.

I haven't seen any testing on the application of initial threat on blocked Lacerates (the second "fact"), either. It does refresh/apply the bleed, but I haven't seen any evidence that it actually applies the threat.

It's all spread out...and I think I got it, but I'll just confirm.

Just reapply mangle when necessary, spam shred, rip at 4-5 combo points but wait for 81 energy first.

But powershifting, I'm not sure I really understand when I'm supposed to do that.

I was curious if there was some value out there for armor ignore. It seems like a pretty good stat for cat dps, yet I don't see any information about it in the main post.

From my understanding on Powershifting, when your next attack will leave you with less then 10 energy you will come off better powershifting. This is because you will have to wait for 2 ticks of energy, but if you powershift you will only wait for one(unless you mangle or rip, but if you do these you should be wiating for 80 energy). Of course depending on your mana pool, JoW, and pot cooldown you may not be able to powershift everytime due to running out of mana.