A few pages ago a few of the old hands were lamenting their choice of which ring to get when turning in Magtheridon's head, I wanted to get some input as to the rationale, since I just won his leaky melon last week. My tank rings are the VE and shermanar, and my cat rings are the top 3 blue rings per Rawr (kaylaan's, overseer's signet, slayer's mark). Neither Curator or Prince has dropped any love lately, I have other priorities on badges, and I'm chipping away at lower city rep to get that ring. Should I still swap the head for the tank ring? I'm heading into SSC/Tk level raiding.
2 pages ago I got some input on building hydross resist sets, thanks very much, I have done a lot of AH farming and have most of the mats gathered for gems and enchants. Currently unbuffed bear looks like about 12900-13500 health, that seems a little low. I'm looking like about 140 of each resist with just paw, but may dial back the resists a bit to get more stamina back into play. Guidance appreciated.
I've also created a macro from a script command I found on the feral preraid tank gear guide here at EJ that checks whether you are uncrittable. But it's calibrated for a boss, not the adds. It's been a big help as I mix and match gear to try and get the best combination.
The script is /script DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage(2.6-(GetCombatRatingBonus(CR_DEFENSE_SKILL)*.04+GetCombatRatingBonus(CR_CRIT_TAKEN_MELEE) ),1,0.5,0)
I think the 2.6 value is the one that needs changed to check uncrittable against L71 Hydross adds, what should it be changed to? Should also see if Rawr's optimizer is up to cranking out a combination.
1. You're definitely worrying too much about tanking the hydross adds. Unless you're solo tanking 3 of them while 1 is banished or something you'll be fine in normal tanking gear favoring dodge and sta rather than armor. Wearing a resist set is not actually mandatory, it just makes it a lot easier. Your stats sound fine. We did it with 2 dps warriors wearing arena gear each tanking 1 of the adds, and 2 feral druids with resist gear each tanking 1. The warriors took noticeably more damage, but it was never a big issue. The adds are stunnable too, so save your stun for a time where you look a bit in danger and then stun them. We have our hydross tank that isn't actively tanking using conc blow and intercept to help out on stunning adds too.
2. Get the tanking ring. There's lots of dps rings. Shatar rep, Lower City rep, Shartuul event, Prince, Curator, 3 timed za chest all drop pretty decent epic dps rings. Oh, and badges. That's all without getting a raid drop. There's also 2 decent dps rings from SSC and one from TK (off the top of my head).
For an enemy target you need 5% + .2% per level they are above you so 5.2% crit reduction for a 71. With SotF you only need 2.2% to cover the remainder.
As far as the rings go, the dps ring is okay but easily replaceable. The tanking ring is the second best ring with defense on it, 3rd over all after exalted Karazhan and the new badge ring. If you have the two tanking rings and don't expect to see any dps upgrades soon then take the dps ring. Otherwise take the tank ring or the healing ring for your healing set. Personally I took the tanking ring and it's nice to have a solid ring with defense to swap in to allow me some additional gear flexibility.
- On Gurtogg, is there some trigger for deciding who cannot be Fel Raged? I know Warriors can NOT get it, but after five weeks yesterday I was the first Feral to eat it (and since I was one of the tanks at the time, it was extraordinarily easy--and fun, too!). The only difference between yesterday and other attempts was, at the time, I was sitting out of range with BoP having just worn off, 'cos I had a 13 stack of the debuff. (Yes, I know five weeks is far too small a sample size for reliable data.)
- On RoS, is it more accepted to have me in bear gear for phase 1 (and possibly 3), or cat gear to make sure we get through the phases faster (and of course risk death on p1)? And (I suspect I know the answer to this one) does a progression raid have any hope in hell of beating RoS without a single warrior? (We struggle to keep the bastards)
- On Mother, is it best for all three tanks to forego shadow gear, or just the main tank? I've heard it both ways.
I find myself sometimes in a situation where I'm at <4 combo points and my mangle runs out. My current practice is to mangle whenever it's down, as it seems like the bonus damage to shred is better. Is this the consensus view as well, or should I shred?
- On RoS, is it more accepted to have me in bear gear for phase 1 (and possibly 3), or cat gear to make sure we get through the phases faster (and of course risk death on p1)? And (I suspect I know the answer to this one) does a progression raid have any hope in hell of beating RoS without a single warrior? (We struggle to keep the bastards)
- On Mother, is it best for all three tanks to forego shadow gear, or just the main tank? I've heard it both ways.
Thanks!
On RoS, I always helped tank it in dps gear, since dodge-based mitigation is quite good and crits aren't really an issue. In terms of doing it without a war, yes, this is possible, but way too hard. You'd need monster dps in p2 in order to really be able to do this. Just get a prot war or have a dps war erspec.
On Mother, I always went full SR. If a slash tank dies, the healers are doing something very very wrong. Since threat isn't an issue, and you're not going to get gibbed, I'd recommend wearing full SR.
- On Gurtogg, is there some trigger for deciding who cannot be Fel Raged? I know Warriors can NOT get it, but after five weeks yesterday I was the first Feral to eat it (and since I was one of the tanks at the time, it was extraordinarily easy--and fun, too!). The only difference between yesterday and other attempts was, at the time, I was sitting out of range with BoP having just worn off, 'cos I had a 13 stack of the debuff. (Yes, I know five weeks is far too small a sample size for reliable data.)
Our rogues and ferals get it all the time without doing anything unusual. Rogues getting it is amazing because they just hit evasion and every dps cooldown and go nuts. Druids, remember to pop out of bear form and hit barkskin. You don't need to be in bear form to survive it at all.
- On RoS, is it more accepted to have me in bear gear for phase 1 (and possibly 3), or cat gear to make sure we get through the phases faster (and of course risk death on p1)? And (I suspect I know the answer to this one) does a progression raid have any hope in hell of beating RoS without a single warrior? (We struggle to keep the bastards)
Assuming you mean you're tanking phase 2 and 3, yes, wear tank gear the whole time. If dps in phase 1 is a problem, you're screwed in 2 and 3 anyway where you'd be tanking.
Um, I'd say its possible to do it without reflecting the damage debuff, but very very hard. We killed it one week when it was bugged and not casting the damage debuff thing, but it took a couple tries. Also dps warriors do amazing damage in a fight like this where they're getting fed lots of rage.
Make sure you have a macro to cancel bear form and go back in (a normal power shifting macro, just replacing "cat" with "bear") The thing that turns your rage into damage against you (shriek or scream or something like that) will rock you if you have lots of rage, so hit that right before to cancel all but 10 of your rage.
- On Mother, is it best for all three tanks to forego shadow gear, or just the main tank? I've heard it both ways.
Off tanks should definitely wear full SR. The whole cleave thing is basically a complete joke damage wise as long as you have the off tanks there. Lifebloom or chain heal is all that's needed to heal the off tanks, they don't need extra mitigation at all (beyond what a tank would have anyway). The MT on the other hand is getting drilled by Mother Sharazh and so can't afford to gimp his normal tanking stats for SR gear at all.
I was curious if there was some value out there for armor ignore. It seems like a pretty good stat for cat dps, yet I don't see any information about it in the main post.
The issue with both Armor Penetration and Haste are that they scale a lot in comparison to what gear you have and what values you have of them. Armor penetration gets a better as you get more, for example. You're best off just using something like Rawr to model how much you have/planning to have and see if the items it's on are worth it - remember you can't ever really take a particular stat as a set value, you have to evaluate the piece of gear you may want to get with it on and compare the whole stat set it has to your current/other planning item.
I'll add something to that effect in the main post just to make it clearer. Remember I haven't played in about 8 months so that might not be entirely correct, it's just what I recall about them.
- On Gurtogg, is there some trigger for deciding who cannot be Fel Raged? I know Warriors can NOT get it, but after five weeks yesterday I was the first Feral to eat it (and since I was one of the tanks at the time, it was extraordinarily easy--and fun, too!). The only difference between yesterday and other attempts was, at the time, I was sitting out of range with BoP having just worn off, 'cos I had a 13 stack of the debuff. (Yes, I know five weeks is far too small a sample size for reliable data.)
I've heard that anyone with a rage bar cannot get it.
This is not contradicted by my experience. I'm only ever got it in caster or cat form.
- On Gurtogg, is there some trigger for deciding who cannot be Fel Raged? I know Warriors can NOT get it, but after five weeks yesterday I was the first Feral to eat it (and since I was one of the tanks at the time, it was extraordinarily easy--and fun, too!). The only difference between yesterday and other attempts was, at the time, I was sitting out of range with BoP having just worn off, 'cos I had a 13 stack of the debuff. (Yes, I know five weeks is far too small a sample size for reliable data.)
- On RoS, is it more accepted to have me in bear gear for phase 1 (and possibly 3), or cat gear to make sure we get through the phases faster (and of course risk death on p1)? And (I suspect I know the answer to this one) does a progression raid have any hope in hell of beating RoS without a single warrior? (We struggle to keep the bastards)
- On Mother, is it best for all three tanks to forego shadow gear, or just the main tank? I've heard it both ways.
Thanks!
on gurtogg: he cant felrage someone on a wall because of pathing errors when they enlarge due to the fel rage.
ros: i use dps gear because you dont have any armor mitigation phase 1 anyway and cat gear has a great deal more agi and dodge.
mother: i dont OT with shadow resist. I dont think it really matters eitherway tho because her saber lash is all physical and dodge-able (thus making regular high armor/dodge tank gear preferable) but the shadow damage is resistable (thus favoring much lower armor shadow resist gear)
I haven't seen any testing on the application of initial threat on blocked Lacerates (the second "fact"), either. It does refresh/apply the bleed, but I haven't seen any evidence that it actually applies the threat.
I haven't seen the actual testing results either which is why I asked for a link in the first place, testing for both of the first two facts is incredibly time consuming if done right.
I know Athinira reads these boards to so perhaps s/he can link up the actual logs you tested with and how you tested it?
Originally Posted by lairpie
Originally Posted by Ledneh
- On RoS, is it more accepted to have me in bear gear for phase 1 (and possibly 3), or cat gear to make sure we get through the phases faster (and of course risk death on p1)? And (I suspect I know the answer to this one) does a progression raid have any hope in hell of beating RoS without a single warrior? (We struggle to keep the bastards)
Assuming you mean you're tanking phase 2 and 3, yes, wear tank gear the whole time. If dps in phase 1 is a problem, you're screwed in 2 and 3 anyway where you'd be tanking.
I disagree with this as your standard tank gear loses a lot of its benefits. Aura of Suffering in phase one reduces your armor by 100% and Defense by 500.
I use a high stamina DPS setup with as much agility as I can get without losing too much stamina, it also makes you more useful in the other phases.
Doing it without a warrior tank will be possible but painful.
It would probably be worthwhile talking to your DPS warriors, I am assuming you have them as they all want to DPS, and pointing out that if they want the fancy gear from the later bosses they might want to help the raid get to them.
As for mother it really comes down to what your healers are comfortable with, I have been doing it wearing just the cloak, belt, bracers and boots which you craft with the hearts and the rest my normal tanking gear. Note. This means I am not crit immune but as the Saber Lash can't crit it doesn't matter, if you plan on trying to save a wipe as the main tank went down remember that she can be leashed/reset and the main tank shouldn't die.
Looking at these numbers I got from a recent kill I think I might drop the cloak for my standard tanking one too, most of the damage is physical so I don't think full SR gear would be a good idea.
Type amount ave max #dots ave max
Physical 114182 7612 8702
Shadow 34869 1184 3907 20 1210 1862
Originally Posted by Merple
When you're tanking Hydross adds, wearing cloth resistance gear instead of leather offers the same mitigation, correct?
All of the melee damage in the fight is of an elemental type so the amount of armor you have is irrelevant.
Back when I was tanking the adds in, my previous guild, I went for a high stamina and agility set. After a few kills and people became familiar with the fight I used my cat gear and an [Elixir of Ironskin] to help with crits, I don't think I was crit immune but as long as they die fast, which they were by then, it didn't matter. If I was asked to tank Hydross I would make sure I was crit immune.
We got the other phase tank to pick one up and had two ferals, the fourth was grabbed by either a warrior or prot paladin depending on who was there or one of the ferals would grab two. We would configure the groups with OT's in them to have a resist totem and that was about it.
All of the melee damage in the fight is of an elemental type so the amount of armor you have is irrelevant.
Back when I was tanking the adds in, my previous guild, I went for a high stamina and agility set. After a few kills and people became familiar with the fight I used my cat gear and an [Elixir of Ironskin] to help with crits, I don't think I was crit immune but as long as they die fast, which they were by then, it didn't matter. If I was asked to tank Hydross I would make sure I was crit immune.
We got the other phase tank to pick one up and had two ferals, the fourth was grabbed by either a warrior or prot paladin depending on who was there or one of the ferals would grab two. We would configure the groups with OT's in them to have a resist totem and that was about it.
Because I may well be tanking more than one add, and we're just learning the fight, I'm going with ~120 of each resistance self-buffed. Later we can switch to a more aggressive gearing.
There was a post a few pages back about using SotFL on Brutallus when not under the effects of Stomp. I gave this a shot earlier in the week and noticed considerable TPS gains. I definitely recommend this, as it is a simple way to increase your TPS at the start of the fight at the cost of remembering to change weapons before a Stomp lands.
There was a post a few pages back about using SotFL on Brutallus when not under the effects of Stomp. I gave this a shot earlier in the week and noticed considerable TPS gains. I definitely recommend this, as it is a simple way to increase your TPS at the start of the fight at the cost of remembering to change weapons before a Stomp lands.
When the other tank is doing the tanking thing, you can shift to cat and work on DPS. If you just put /equip SotFL after the /cast !Cat Form line in the macro, it'll automatically swap for you. Same for the macro to return to bear form.
For mother sharahz, it really doesn't matter which type of damage you take more total of. Basically the only way an off tank can remotely die is if someone gets ported on top of the tanks and melee and all the healers are scrambling not to have a 1/4 of your raid die at once, then the saber lash hits. Full tank gear, favoring sta, with SR mitigates more of that burst than just wearing full tank gear. If your guild is short on hearts, by all means, give the off tanks gear last, its very possible to kill her w/o them having SR, but its definitely easier with them having SR. As a note, dodge has almost no value at all, sure you'll dodge some, but its not actually helpful, all it will do it up your shaman / druid overhealing.
How do Primal Tenacity and Predatory Instincts mesh (or do they).
PT gives you 15% fear/stun resist. PI gives you 15% chance to dodge AoE attacks. In the case of an AoE fear (Nightbane), do these effects stack? For something like Warstomp(AoE Stun), would PT/PI/Powerful Earthstorm Diamond stack to a 35% resistance?
I tested this, kinda. Back at level 60 when the talents first came out, I pulled a mage and tested Primal Instinct for about 60 minutes. Then I specced out of it.
The mage wore maxed spell hit and some spell pen (I think?). I made sure I didn't have any resistances.
Arcane explosion: Fully resisted ~15%. No partials.
Ice Nova: Resisted none.
Blizzard: Resisted none (could be wrong here, was a while ago).
Flamestrike: resisted 15% of initial hits, resisted no ground DoT hits.
Cone of cold: Resisted none.
I basically concluded that PI only effected non-binary damages. This may have changed in the last year and some, of course, and I didn't test fear directly.
There is no CLASS exclusion on Gurtogg. Any class can be eligible. He may possibly have an aggro exclusion or a combination of aggro/rage bar logic. I've got Fel Rage as a tank on this fight, though I didn't have aggro and I'm pretty sure that I was in caster form (no Rage bar) at the time casting Innervate on someone.
I wear full Cat dps gear for RoS. Wear a tank staff for the trash and P1.
Phase 1 our Prot Warr starts, then a Rogue tanks the first enrage with evasion, then I tank 2nd normal period (pop Barkskin before you take aggro and wear Wildfury for more dodge. By then for us now P1 is usually over, but on learning we had a 2nd Rogue evasion-tank the 2nd enrage and a 3rd tank in reserve if required.
We are pretty lazy with Mother. We just have 2 tanks in full SR and lots of stamina go afk on top of the MT.
2 pages ago I got some input on building hydross resist sets, thanks very much, I have done a lot of AH farming and have most of the mats gathered for gems and enchants. Currently unbuffed bear looks like about 12900-13500 health, that seems a little low. I'm looking like about 140 of each resist with just paw, but may dial back the resists a bit to get more stamina back into play. Guidance appreciated.
I think I used 150 as baseline. Together with a Frost Resistance Aura and Nature Resistance Totem/Aspect you'd be fine. Flask of Chromatic Wonder to the rescue as well - it'll be useful on Lurker as well, so yer not totally wasting things.
I'd suggest getting the s3 chest or so if you're worried too much about your health. Drop in 3 +12stam (or +15 stam like I did) gems and you're looking at 90 stamina or thereabouts on a single item. Grab the Commander's Badge from the Netherwing Quests, the Darkmoon Vengeance card or another +stamina trinket, such as the Spyglass.
I use full DPS gear, with Badge of Tenacity and Moroes' Pocketwatch on RoS. I tank the first enrage, and with both trinkets popped and raid buffed, hit around 94% dodge. Can easily get through the full enrage, and still pull off 1600+ DPS for the rest of the fight. It's a good tradeoff for me, since we're breaking in a new Prot Warrior and threat has been an issue. Going full out with my DPS trinkets can easily lead to me pulling aggro.
04/30/08, 3:46 PM
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