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Old 10/15/07, 4:46 AM   #196
angral
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Proudmoore
While trolling the new loots, I noticed the [Vestments of Hibernation]. Fairly typical 'feral drood' loot, extra armour, all the usual stats including the ever hated Int, and armour penetration.

Is everyone else as puzzled by this as I am? Or am I alone in looking at it scratching my head wondering exactly what this is intended for?

** Apparently the answer is learn to read. But it's not the full answer, as aside from a few disses of its obvious lacks (stam and sockets), no-one wants or feels like commenting on the actual interesting bit of the item, the armour penetration. Cest la vie. **

Last edited by angral : 10/15/07 at 12:25 PM. Reason: Must learn to do more than skim read the whole pages of posts.

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Old 10/15/07, 5:25 AM   #197
• Vykromond
the staleness of Max's dumps
 
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Vykromond
Tauren Druid
 
No WoW Account
No, you're totally alone. No one else is as puzzled as you are, especially not anyone in the thread you're reading.

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Old 10/15/07, 5:29 AM   #198
Umph
Soda Popinski
 
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Umph
Tauren Druid
 
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I am fairly sure [Idol of Terror] has a 10s internal cooldown. I tested it by mangling in cat form, clicking off the buff and repeatedly mangling untill the buff reapplied - my combat log never showed it refreshing earlier than 10 seconds after the initial application.

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Old 10/15/07, 5:31 AM   #199
Umph
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Umph
Tauren Druid
 
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Originally Posted by angral View Post
While trolling the new loots, I noticed the [Vestments of Hibernation]. Fairly typical 'feral drood' loot, extra armour, all the usual stats including the ever hated Int, and armour penetration.

Is everyone else as puzzled by this as I am? Or am I alone in looking at it scratching my head wondering exactly what this is intended for?
Given that we will be able to one button powershift, it seems like the int isn't totally unwelcome. However obviously you could have a macro to drink a super mana potion instead of using a haste or strength potion, so who knows. Everyone else is puzzled by it too, but I think we can chalk it down to whomever itemizes Druids being clueless again.

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Old 10/15/07, 5:48 AM   #200
 masanbol
Space Goats Coast to Coast
 
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Origins
Draenei Shaman
 
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I think it's really likely that the itemization for Zul'Aman and the badge rewards in this patch was completed long before the changes to HotW and feral AP.


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Old 10/15/07, 6:23 AM   #201
Deliverance
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Tarren Mill (EU)
Originally Posted by Larisroth View Post
I'm still trying to get understand how this patch affects our scaling and how far we are along the path to where we should be. Certainly the FAP and HotW changes bring us much closer to where we should be with respect to rogue dps and (at least new) itemisation.
As far as I can see, the changes do not bring us particularly closer to where "we should be" with regards to rogue dps - what it does is make existing itemization more convenient for us.

The net effect of the changes is that every FAP weapon has about 28.2% more FAP than before. That gain in FAP is of roughly the same scale as the loss in AP from HotW not affecting STR (STR*2.72-2.26), give or take a few dozen AP. With +10% AP applied to the sum of the changes (and thus regaining some of what was lost as well as working on FAP, buffs, agility..), you are going to, again broadly and it differs with gear level, in particular how much rogue gear you were already wearing, going to see something like a total 5-15% increase in AP when raidbuffed.

That may seem like a lot, but as has been demonstrated often enough, the feral druid's real scaling problem is not a lack of AP - it is being very poor at transforming raw AP into damage. Druids are not going to scale a lot better because of this change, merely a little better: those 80-95% of your new AP that was your old AP don't scale one whit better with gear, but at least there'll be more items of interest to us and you will have that bit of extra AP.

Not that you couldn't solve the scaling issue via AP by making high-end gear provide high amounts of AP (though it would be difficult to set up without letting low-end gear, where the current setup works quite well, get unbalanced), it is just that addressing it via a change to our talents/abilities seem more likely.

From a practical perspective, something like the FAP and HotW change are much more in line with sops thrown to the players, since this is what players complained the loudest about (lack on STR on gear, our "2Hs" scaling worse than others' "2Hs"), than really addressing scaling issues. Furthermore, you couldn't really make the HotW change without the FAP change (or another change increasing AP in general) or you would be reducing the AP of a lot of druids in the dungeon-blues, heroics, Karazhan range (where characters are most often not fully raidbuffed): Those changes come as a package deal.

As an example, if Blizzard really wanted the FAP weapons to provide druids with as much benefit, in terms of actual damage output, from their weapon as other dps classes, they would not have merely increased the scaling multiplier by 28.2% to match the white dps scaling on 2H weapons (which fits the words, but not the spirit of damage scaling), but by something in the range of 200%+.

EDIT: Don't get me wrong - I'm quite happy with the changes overall, especially as I had more or less given up on future itemization catering to the primary stats that we druids love and adore, it is just that I do not see them provide much more than that: convenience and a larger selection of items to be considered attractive.

Last edited by Deliverance : 10/15/07 at 6:40 AM. Reason: Clarification of overall POV.

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Old 10/15/07, 6:54 AM   #202
Malazaar
Don Flamenco
 
Tauren Druid
 
Gul'dan (EU)
Don't you lose the Agility Buff once you swap out the Idol ?

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Old 10/15/07, 9:04 AM   #203
Valerian
King Hippo
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Blackhand
Originally Posted by Umph View Post
Given that we will be able to one button powershift, it seems like the int isn't totally unwelcome. However obviously you could have a macro to drink a super mana potion instead of using a haste or strength potion, so who knows. Everyone else is puzzled by it too, but I think we can chalk it down to whomever itemizes Druids being clueless again.
One button powershifting is not in. /cancelform does NOT work going from same form to same form and its possibly intended to be that way.

WoW Forums -> [BUG] /cancelform working incorrectly in 2.3

Note also the post 26 and 29 in that thread gives an explanation of WHY it doesn't work.

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Old 10/15/07, 9:29 AM   #204
seminarca
Don Flamenco
 
Retired
Tauren Druid
 
No WoW Account
Slouken's been pretty daft in that thread so far. People keep posting macros with healthstone or potion usage in them and he gets distracted by that and goes off on "I'm absolutely sure that the designers don't want you to use items instantly while in forms." tangents.

So either instant X to Y is currently bugged, and they'll break it because that's not intended behavior. Or X to X is currently bugged.

I really hope it's the latter.

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Old 10/15/07, 9:32 AM   #205
Farstrider
Back in teh house
 
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Farrstrider
Tauren Druid
 
No WoW Account (EU)
The theory about the aura mod looks pretty good. Basically what they are saying is that your own PC can now keep track of your form, but the aura doesn't change til it's confirmed by the server.

<Fric> I think the only kind of gay buttsex I'd enjoy on any level would be assraping a smug hipster douchebag (also possibly a roid head and/or fratboy/Jersey Shore cast member)
<Zyla> If there's gonna be a dick in the room besides my own, i'd rather it have to be my brother's. You know that kinda sounds bad all typed out like that,

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Old 10/15/07, 10:19 AM   #206
Malazaar
Don Flamenco
 
Tauren Druid
 
Gul'dan (EU)
I'm sorry to disappoint you, but the Idol of Terror is yet another failure of druid dps relic itemization. There is simple no way of it being better than everbloom idol in a raiding situation. The nature of the proc makes a really good proc bad as it doesn't play good with the cycle. When it procs, it will proc of the mangle, meaning that rip and mangle won't get the benefit (and those two make up about 27% of our damage).

I'm going to use a 12s Cycle for this example - it's as good as it gets for the Idol of Terror, any other scenario will make it even worse.

Everbloom Idol effectively adds 39 Weapondamage to your shred attacks. 39 Weapondamage equals 546 attackpower, 496.4 if you count in the new HotW. Shred will do at least 30% of your damage (usually more like 35%). So that would be 148.9 attackpower overall.

Idol of Terror has a 85% procchance to give you 65 agility for 10s. You will only do autoattacks and shreds in that window. Shred damage was 30% and i assume 42% damage done via autoattack, however, only 10 of 12 autoattacks will benefit from a proc. So 65% of your damage effectively benefits from a proc and it's 85% procrate.

That leaves you with 0.65* 0.85* 65 = 35.9 agility.

And i don't need to show you that 148.9 ap is superior to 35.9 agility, do i ?

I know this is a simplified calculation but if i put both idols into my complex dps calculator, using endgame gear, i get 1657.64 dps for the Everbloom Idol and 1653.27 for the Idol of Terror (would have to be 42.7 agility or more to be better).

On the other hand, you don't lose the Idol of Terror Buff if you unequip it (i finally got on the test server), so swapping idols may not be off the table yet (i will do a seperate calc later on).

It's obviously not bad for solo farming and tanking either.

With tanking you will have a very high uptime and 65 agility is nothing to laugh at (~5% dodge and ~3% crit) so i'm looking forward to finally giving my Idol of Brutality a rest.

Edit: It didn't occur to me that in a 12s cycle you could actually mangle before the rip thus making the idol worthwhile. In a normal situation you have to live with 14-15s cycles though and it's as the above scenario describes.

Last edited by Malazaar : 10/15/07 at 10:37 AM.

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Old 10/15/07, 10:42 AM   #207
Krag
Don Flamenco
 
Tauren Druid
 
Runetotem (EU)
I don't really think it was meant to be a raid dps idol, Everbloom does that very well, and another idol for that same function wasn't as needed as an overall and tanking relic in my opinion. Sure Everbloom should probably have an upgrade somewhere, making a good idol instead of the white stag thing would have been a good spot.

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Old 10/15/07, 11:11 AM   #208
monstor
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Druid
 
The Forgotten Coast
[Band of the Swift Paw]
I think we might have found the best end-game tanking bracers, these are quite amazing.

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Old 10/15/07, 11:21 AM   #209
Rathyr
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
Lethon
Idol of Terror strikes me as a tanking idol, not a DPS one, as said above.

Everyone seems extremely excited over the Signet of Primal Wrath that the other feral ring seems to be ignored.

Signet of Eternal Life: 54 stam, 37 resil.

For tier6 tanks (people most likely to be completing the timed quest in ZA), this might actually replace our old armour rings. Keep in mind nearly every end game tank will be losing 19 resil and 8 defense from replacing our cloak and bracers with heroic items. If you don't need the armour, this seems to be an extremely attractive option for getting back that uncrittable status without socketing or enchanting for defense.

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Old 10/15/07, 11:22 AM   #210
Valerian
King Hippo
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Blackhand
Originally Posted by monstor View Post
[Band of the Swift Paw]
I think we might have found the best end-game tanking bracers, these are quite amazing.
They are very good but making up the 19 Resiliance is going to suck by switching out the PvP ones.

Originally Posted by Rathyr View Post
Everyone seems extremely excited over the Signet of Primal Wrath that the other feral ring seems to be ignored.

Signet of Eternal Life: 54 stam, 37 resil.

For tier6 tanks (people most likely to be completing the timed quest in ZA), this might actually replace our old armour rings. Keep in mind nearly every end game tank will be losing 19 resil and 8 defense from replacing our cloak and bracers with heroic items. If you don't need the armour, this seems to be an extremely attractive option for getting back that uncrittable status without socketing or enchanting for defense.
This is one way to make up that resiliance loss and allow for stam/stat enchants instead of resiliance. Have people figured out where these rings are from though?

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