This isn't really the place for this question, it's a basic combat table question.

So instead of answering You sad its not the right place. You worry about spamming this thread? You wasted one post to not give the answer to that question while You could give the answer and enlighten many people reading this thread.

You can be missed while stunned, you cannot dodge while stunned. You can also be missed while facing the wrong way, while you cannot dodge someone behind you. This means anything that gives you additional miss% (i.e. defence) is generally better than pure dodge, but dodge is very easily attainable (due to being such a low co-efficient of agility as a druid - something like 14.5 agility/1%dodge).

And yes, dodge and miss stack.

You might want to update your profile.

Hebius
Tauren Druid

<gimme ur money>
Burning Legion(EU)

(Please don't give me an infraction for using "ur", that's his guildname)

Given further discussion by Slouken, this appears correct; the slash command will be available, but by default forms will be canceled automatically when an action is taken that would require it.

Feral have a 15% chance to resist fear with talents and a 15% chance to resist AoE effects with talents. I know it use to be that you then had a 30% chance to resist AoE fears. Now that we get Fear ward on both sides, but it has a longer cooldown. Would a resisted fear eat a fear ward proc or would the fear ward go off before you had a chance to resist it?

I never saw any testing on the AoE fear being effected by Predatory Instincts but I do remember people asking if it would, can you enlighten me or are you being hopeful about how it works?

If you have a fear ward active on you when you are feared you are immune to the fear and it consumes the ward, I have never seen a resist in these circumstances.

If you go feral without Primal Tenactiy and play on an AoE fight. You'll be experencing a much higher resistance rate than the normal resistance rate from a boss ability (for best results, don't buff yourself with MoTW)

Granted, I have not test this to a large sample scale, I have been at least looking at the resist rate of the Nightbane kills very early on, and more recently, the Archimonde ones.

hi, ive been looking at the modified kitty - calculator for 2.3 patch The Druid Wiki » ToskksDPSGearMethod
and i dont quite understand how the expertise rating can be valued as high as it is....

negating dodge and parry in catform wont realy help much since you should be attacking from behind the target, thus making the stat only work for doges since mobs can't parry from behind.
Am i missing something here? The stat is prolly one of the best tanking stats, but for a druid in catform it seems to me like any other stat would be better almost

Toskk equates it directly with hit rating, which makes sense. The blue post said .25% dodge and .25% parry per point of expertise, and it takes 4 rating per points. Hit rating is worth ~0.063% per rating * 4 rating = .2535%.

So, it's exactly equivalent to hit except when attacking from the front, in which case it's approximately double that. And it doesn't count against the hit cap and further improves your chance of hitting specials. I don't see a downside!

For most dpsing its very slightly worse than hit rating due to caster mobs being unable to dodge while casting. I guess also if you can somehow stun a mob you're dpsing hit rating is better since you can't dodge when stunned either.

It all comes down to itemization. It's not too difficult to get the necessary hit rating to remove misses off the table, even for the majority of druids at level 70 who are in Karazhan / tier 4 gear. Now Expertise gives a clear stat to remove dodges off the table as well; even for the odd feral druid who only ever does cat DPS, that's still worthwhile.

As the numbers keep increasing for hit rating and such on gear, it becomes increasingly easy to reach the hit cap; if they put in more gear with Expertise, that can be fit into outfits as well. Of course this is all reset with the next expansion, with higher levels and new numbers that have to be reached. But until then, at the very least, there's no reason not to try to get gear with Expertise, while still reaching the hit rating cap.

Why would you say it's only a tank stat? Whether you outright miss a swing or have it dodged, it still didn't do damage. So unless you are above the expertise cap for dodges it is very much worth it to get even while doing pure dps.

So, quick review of the combat table.

Misses, dodges, and parries are all separate events. To eliminate "misses", you get hit rating. Expertise does nothing to mitigate misses. You "miss" 9% of the time against a boss, and thus you need 142 hit rating to reach that 9%.

However, even if you mitigate the misses, you still get dodged. the current theory on the amount dodged by a boss is somewhere between 4 and 8 percent (I haven't kept up with the exact number, but the last one I heard was 5.5%). You would need 5.5/.25, or 22 expertise, which is 22 * 4 = 88 expertise rating to reach 5.5%. This is completely separate from misses and Hit Rating.

However, a miss and a dodge are effectively the same: each is a non-hit, with the same energy penalty for not hitting the target, and are thus often categorized the same in things like Recount.

I have seen, multiple times, a resist on a fear while warded and it did not consume the fear ward. I think it will be easy to keep fear ward up on a druid with about 3-4 priests in most encounters. Easier than a warrior, although the warrior could stance dance if he's not warded, of course.

I was thinking about Expertise, and I realise that we are the only class whithout a talent with it.
In 2.3 patch, Prot warriors will have expertise through Defiance.
Fury warriors will have Weapon Mastery (and Precision for +hit).
Rogues have Weapon Expertise, Mace Spec (Precision too).
Enhance Shamans, well... no Expertise, "just" 9% hit through talents.

And we have nothing similar. Neither for tanking nor dpsing.

In addition, all other classes have lots of items (armor that we could wear, but mostly weapons) that add Expertise and hit.

Our feral itemisation is really poor regarding those 2 stats.

My point is, we have 2 talents that are useless (Nurturing Instinct) or not that usefull (Predatory Strikes). Why not adding to one of those, or simply changing them, into a Expertise bonus or dodge reduction ?

This will help filling a hole in our crappy itemisation as well as keeping us more in line with other dps classes.

What is your point about that ?

I'd say we get 6% and we share 5%.

Lots of classes have useless talents in their trees, feral Druids aren't exactly alone there. Not sure what you're talking about for Expertise, a quick search at Wowhead reveals only 2 possible (blue) weapons with Expertise a Warrior/Shaman would even consider using for DPS. Also Warriors/Shaman prefer AP/crit over +hit anyway, so I'm not sure what the point is, aside from bitching about Druid itemization (which you're entitled to, but comparing talents/spells/items in a vacuum is a pretty pointless exercise.)

I was not trying to "bitch" druid itemization, it has already been done many time.
I also know that other classes does have useless talents and we are probably the one with the less.
I was just questionning why are we the only one without something like that in our tree as it seems to be (as for dpsing AND tanking) that important so all classes do have a expertise/hit talent except us.

I've just told you that hit (relative to other stats) sucks for Warriors and Shaman. It might be important for you, but that's irrelevant. If you want a +hit talent, argue for one without bringing up incomplete and incorrect comparisons to other classes.

Let's take a look into the history of Expertise:

At First we had the oldstyle weapon skill rating til 2.0. Back then the Weapon skill was exactly the oposite of Defense 0.4% per point anti dodge, anti miss, anti block, anti parry and your chance to critical hit.

Weapon skill - WoWWiki, the Warcraft wiki

In TBC this was changed to the non-linear effect as discussed in this Forum here. With the different Formulars.

Now this Weapon skill is changed to Expertise and not limited to one type of Weapon any more. I guess it could really be more a Tank skill given you don't attack from the front.

On the misses not mitigated by Expertise, I think we might need to look at the 9% in more detail. With what we new from before. At the very first the Theory was that Bosses had 5%+0,2 per lvl in total 5,6% Further down the history of theorycraft we discovered it was more than 5,6% and ended up with 8,6-9%. The most recent tests say 9%. When we discovered the Weapon skill effect reducing it by 3% with 20 points FCSR. So going back to expertise, it might be the same as before with slight changes or better a combination of the old pre-2.0 weapon skill and the TBC weapon skill with slighly different numbers.

This needs to be tested on the test realms or we need to wait for the release of 2.3. I know that this is more a brainstorming what could be the new case right now and I should have come up with at least a small test. But good testing against a 3 point higher Mob will be limited on the test realms. There might be someone who could have better options to test it than myself.

Neither Nurturing Instinct nor Predatory Strikes are useless. Nurturing Instinct is a PVP talent taken by a nontrivial amount of highly-ranked ferals and Predatory Strikes is still excellent for soloing and levelling although fairly marginal for raids.