The current version of Rawr does overestimate TPS. It's good to compare which gear will give you more TPS, but don't be concerned if you can't reach the TPS values it says you should. We're working on that for the next version.
Just so it's clear, M'uru adds don't suffer from the generic dual wield miss penalty, but yes, the more avoidance you can stack while maintaining crit immunity (2.2%), armor cap (33k), enough Hit/Expertise to bring down their avoidance to something acceptable (like <5%) the better.
1) For those druid out there starting as the first tank on Brutallus, what kind of gear setup are you using? My armory (Logged out in tank gear, armory is slow to update.)
Any suggestions on my gear? I just picked up T6 bracers tonight but that's the only change from what should be on armory. I have been toying with regemming for more stam, but can't bring myself to do it yet, not until I see a Shadowmoon Insignia because I can't let my threat drop anymore that it already is. I put on my shard of contempt occasionally for threat gen, but otherwise its a badge.
I've tanked it with virtually the same gear as you. Only real difference was that I used a Badge of Tenacity over the Shard of Contempt. The additional armor is very handy and the additional dodge/crit from the use effect every 2 minutes (every time you are tanking in a 3-tank rotation, not so great otherwise) comes close to making up for it. Threat isn't a huge deal as long as the dps use their threat dumps correctly.
1) For those druid out there starting as the first tank on Brutallus, what kind of gear setup are you using? My armory (Logged out in tank gear, armory is slow to update.)
Any suggestions on my gear? I just picked up T6 bracers tonight but that's the only change from what should be on armory. I have been toying with regemming for more stam, but can't bring myself to do it yet, not until I see a Shadowmoon Insignia because I can't let my threat drop anymore that it already is. I put on my shard of contempt occasionally for threat gen, but otherwise its a badge.
2) What kind of TPS should I be looking for with my current gear setup?
Rawr puts me at around 1600tps with normal raid buffs and debuffs. But tonight on Brutallus I couldn't keep more than 1100tps for the life of me. Tonight I ran with my shard of contempt on and used hit food because I honestly couldn't hit the guy. WWS parse from tonight
Our best attempt at 2.3mill I had 5 of my 10 mangles missed/dodged/parried, for a 50% success rate. That just doesn't seem right to me. Can my threat rotation possibly be that messed up or is this the norm for druid tanks because the lack of hit/expertise on gear?
ad 1)
I think that gemming more stamina is better for survival on Brutallus, but i dont think its worth regemming your gear. The only change i'd consider would be powerful meta gem, since its cheap. You'll need avoidance gear for Muru adds.
ad 2)
Yes, our initial threat is basically luck based. My threat over 1st 30 seconds varies greatly, RL even asked me few times whats wrong. Solution we use: SSO neck, Haste potion on pull, threat group (SoE + GoA, BM hunters). The neck often procs during haste potion, so mostly my initial threat is really good (1500+). We move the shaman to warlock group after 1st minute, so he can give them heroism and mana totems. As overall dmg improves, this may not be necessary and he can stay in tank group and give you heroism on pull which makes wonders.
I wouldnt use hit food over stamina food, its 500 more hp for minimal impact on threat. I also considered using Shard for threat after one crazy mangle-parry streak i had (i didnt land single mangle in the first 30 seconds) but i dont think its worth it. Badge gives you much needed armor and 20 seconds dodge for 2 full tanked stomps.
I'm fairly sure the TPS estimates in my current spreadsheet are more accurate. Depending on raid/group buffs, 1100 TPS sounds about right if you're in a tank group. However, it should be a bit higher in a hunter/shaman group. It will also vary if you have a ret pally, arms warrior, 3 blessings, and such.
ok, 50% missed mangles are just bad luck. but the rest of your damage is also pretty low.
maybe try to reach ~23k hp through gear and non-group raidbuffs and get a place in the meleegroup.
get a warrior to specc 5/5 demoshout, get a sv hunter with an owl for even more AP-reduction, get one
of your warlocks to use CoR. and if you're getting instagibbed sometimes right after your taunt, activating
barkskin could buy the extra bit of time for your healers
The big things for you to work out could be:
Can your raid survive without you healing? My guild haven't been using restos every pull but I think that's a mistake- it is one of those fights you can LB 3 tanks and raid heal; a well played resto has the potential to really smooth over phase 1.
Do you really need 2 feral tanks? Lots of guilds are using 1-2 warriors on the humanoids and spell reflect does appear to be pretty useful here.
Would you be able to get the gear you need? We've been trying to gear up some prot paladins for a while and sometimes it is very frustrating to see their gear progress slowly as the wrong items/ tokens drop.
We're going to start learning with a Warrior and a Feral as our humanoid tanks, but our roster is pretty thin - it would be nice to still be able to make attempts if one of our 4 tanks can't make it. The lack of a tree isn't a concern, we have 3 well geared, high attendance trees. One of us is going to build a Feral set for this, we're just not sure which one yet. One has a T4 bear set to start from, the other has a ton more badges, and I'm the only one with a decent weapon.
And yeah, token drops will probably render the entire thing moot. We've been Vanquisher-starved for a long time, which is why none of us have an off-spec set already when we have several Paladins with multiple sets. Still, I guess there's badge loot to fill in until set tokens drop. We have about 3 weeks before we'll really need this second bear.
I have searched this thread and read the OP wherein it appears the consensus is to NOT swap idols in combat as the DPS lost is greater than any DPS gain. I have also seen suggestions that the Idol of Feral SHadows is best used on high armor targets and is generally inferior against other bosses. I am talking raid setting here.
Can someone tell which bosses would be considered high armor bosses where this idol would be superior or are there really no bosses where this idol should be used?
Can someone tell which bosses would be considered high armor bosses where this idol would be superior or are there really no bosses where this idol should be used?
Rawr shows that it's not superior to everbloom when you are raid buffed, though it might be for soloing a high armor mob. Consider the value of the raven idol for DPS, though: if you are in a group with two other physical DPS, you'd probably get better rDPS by being more altruistic.
The current version of Rawr does overestimate TPS. It's good to compare which gear will give you more TPS, but don't be concerned if you can't reach the TPS values it says you should. We're working on that for the next version.
I have fixed a lot of broken bits in the threat estimation, and it is now matching up pretty faithfully to LibThreat generated values. In my testing (solo, self buffed against level 70 elites in heroic SL) the actual values were around 3% off the Rawr predicted value.
My guild has been attempting Brut recently and I have a few questions that I couldn't find answers to through searching or skimming the 161 pages of this thread.
1) For those druid out there starting as the first tank on Brutallus, what kind of gear setup are you using? My armory (Logged out in tank gear, armory is slow to update.)
Any suggestions on my gear? I just picked up T6 bracers tonight but that's the only change from what should be on armory. I have been toying with regemming for more stam, but can't bring myself to do it yet, not until I see a Shadowmoon Insignia because I can't let my threat drop anymore that it already is. I put on my shard of contempt occasionally for threat gen, but otherwise its a badge.
2) What kind of TPS should I be looking for with my current gear setup?
Rawr puts me at around 1600tps with normal raid buffs and debuffs. But tonight on Brutallus I couldn't keep more than 1100tps for the life of me. Tonight I ran with my shard of contempt on and used hit food because I honestly couldn't hit the guy. WWS parse from tonight
Our best attempt at 2.3mill I had 5 of my 10 mangles missed/dodged/parried, for a 50% success rate. That just doesn't seem right to me. Can my threat rotation possibly be that messed up or is this the norm for druid tanks because the lack of hit/expertise on gear?
Killed him for the first time last night with 20.7k life. On our first nights of attempts, I was wearing more stam gear. I re-gemmed to more avoidance, etc. It helped tremendously. Same goes for our warrior we had tanking opposite of me. He re-gemmed from stamina to more avoidance during the middle of the night and his spike 100->0 deaths were virtually eliminated. This is a combination of healers adjusting to healing him and also that avoidance is much better when it comes to dealing with stomp+mh+oh, in my opinion. You only need enough health to take the worst hit from a stomp+mh+oh, and any more health than that is less beneficial than the dodge you would have gained from gemming for agility instead of stamina.
Gear in my current armory is what I used, except I used Belt of Natural Power with two shifting shadowsongs instead of T6.
imho, a good (or say, lucky?) healers coordination has to be rated much higher than a bit more avoidance or a bit more stam.
nearly all of the time .. if one of our tanks dies, its because there's ~30k heal incoming right before mh+oh hits. all healers then start casting their biggest heals at nearly the same moment, which takes at least 2 seconds .. time for another mh+oh hit -> gg tank.
imho, a good (or say, lucky?) healers coordination has to be rated much higher than a bit more avoidance or a bit more stam.
nearly all of the time .. if one of our tanks dies, its because there's ~30k heal incoming right before mh+oh hits. all healers then start casting their biggest heals at nearly the same moment, which takes at least 2 seconds .. time for another mh+oh hit -> gg tank.
Yes, but that wasn't his question. More avoidance instead of extra health above what you need gives healers more room for mis-timing, etc.
The only further thing I'm going to say in the never-ending Sta vs Agi is that I hate seeing people gemming with Amethysts. Unless you're using them to activate a RED, every 2 Amethysts could be replaced by a Sapphire and Spinel for a net gain of 1 Sta. Also remember when gemming that Set bonus's like +str, +crit, and low amounts of Agi or Sta (2/3) are really not worth trying for unless you're going to use those color gems anyway.
Does anyone have some more followup to the super Rip sub-thread? I could only get like 3 of them in ~30m with the Blasted Lands mobs. Is it easier with high or low latency?
I get the feeling it's the hitbox that matters. The blasted lands mobs are very hard to get a big rip on, while my average rip on najentus can be 1000.
The only further thing I'm going to say in the never-ending Sta vs Agi is that I hate seeing people gemming with Amethysts. Unless you're using them to activate a RED, every 2 Amethysts could be replaced by a Sapphire and Spinel for a net gain of 1 Sta. Also remember when gemming that Set bonus's like +str, +crit, and low amounts of Agi or Sta (2/3) are really not worth trying for unless you're going to use those color gems anyway.
Worthwhile socket bonuses like on [Belt of Natural Power] which I really think is best with 2x[Shifting Shadowsong Amethyst] are the exception. Otherwise I do agree, and I'm probably going to gem my gear for max avoidance in the next few days. Get your agility from the tier 6 pieces you might want to use for dps, and the stamina from the pieces that you won't usually use for dps, e.g tier 6 helm and shoulders.
<Fric> I think the only kind of gay buttsex I'd enjoy on any level would be assraping a smug hipster douchebag (also possibly a roid head and/or fratboy/Jersey Shore cast member)
The only further thing I'm going to say in the never-ending Sta vs Agi is that I hate seeing people gemming with Amethysts. Unless you're using them to activate a RED, every 2 Amethysts could be replaced by a Sapphire and Spinel for a net gain of 1 Sta. Also remember when gemming that Set bonus's like +str, +crit, and low amounts of Agi or Sta (2/3) are really not worth trying for unless you're going to use those color gems anyway.
Well for me atleast when I was progressing through Black Temple and even couple of months after farming it, getting spinels was almost impossible.
There was always a long queue from shadowpriests, healers and everything in between. Running around in +8 agi's didn't sound too appealing, which was pretty much the main and only reason why I picked Shadowsong Amethyst as my gem of choice.
Though now with Sunwell it will be different with the introduce of gem vendor AND spell haste gems, and I will socket everything I get with the so-called pure gems.
If you crit your mangle and your first shred (or some other quick way to 4 combo points) is there any good reason to mangle again after your rip? Or should you start at the shred point of your next cycle because the mangle will stay up?
Also, why wait for enough energy to rip & mangle at the same time (wait until 70/80 energy)? Why not just worry about getting rip applied before the previous one ends and deal with the mangle afterwards?
If you crit your mangle and your first shred (or some other quick way to 4 combo points) is there any good reason to mangle again after your rip? Or should you start at the shred point of your next cycle because the mangle will stay up?
Also, why wait for enough energy to rip & mangle at the same time (wait until 70/80 energy)? Why not just worry about getting rip applied before the previous one ends and deal with the mangle afterwards?
Thanks
The simple answer is that Mangle won't still be up after your next Rip. It doesn't matter how fast you generate combo points.
So, the 2 questions are actually closely linked. Since both Rip and Mangle have a 12 second duration it is natural to use them together. This is why you'll need to Mangle again after the next Rip... both debuffs will be wearing off. The reason to Rip and then Mangle is to make sure all the ticks of Rip have Mangle applied (in case the cycle goes longer than 12s). This is why you want to save up enough energy to do both before the first tick of Rip (it could be as low as 57 if an energy tick will occur during the GCD between).
One other question based on something that was in the removed post (I saw it just before the author removed it). He said you should never apply a new rip while an old rip is still up. Is this true? What about never letting the rip debuff drop off the mob?
Re-applying Rip before it falls off causes you to lose *at least* the last tick of damage, since it occurs just as Rip falls off the mob. There's really no reason to worry about Rip not being up all the time; you only need to care about Mangle falling off while Rip is still up, and that'll never happen if you always Mangle right after Rip (unless mangle misses of course, but then you should only lose 1 Mangled rip tick).
loos, basically your question is answered like this:
If you get fast combo points, its best to just sit on energy waiting for rip to expire then reapply. Its better to do an extra shred than let your energy cap out though.
If you crit your mangle and your first shred (or some other quick way to 4 combo points) is there any good reason to mangle again after your rip? Or should you start at the shred point of your next cycle because the mangle will stay up?
Also, why wait for enough energy to rip & mangle at the same time (wait until 70/80 energy)? Why not just worry about getting rip applied before the previous one ends and deal with the mangle afterwards?
In addition to some of the other points, another thing to consider is double-Mangle Rips. If you Mangle right after your Rip then the Mangle is wearing off right as you are putting up your next Rip. Even without trying you might get double-Mangle Rips there. If you're actively trying to get them, it means less time waiting for the current Mangle to get down to < 1 second duration left.
Currently Agility is accepted as the best stat to stack lots of, with good reason (decent AP per point, very good amount of crit% per point). The value of Agility in comparison to Strength varies. There's a chart that shows that if you have minimal raid buffs, that you will always have Agility as more worthwhile than Strength. even without raid buffs, the majority of the time Agility will be better than Strength.
[Hourglass of the Unraveller] - A very good trinket for where you get it. ((proc = 45 second cooldown, 10% chance)) [Bloodlust Brooch] - Easy-ish to get and very effective. ((2 minute cooldown))
Noob questions:
1. Is stacking agility still the best stat even if I'm not hit-capped, or only after I am hitcapped?
2. I have both the Hourglass and the Bloodlust Brooch, but can use the apparently-not-highly-thought-of [Romulo's Poison Vial] to get myself from 100-some Hit Rating to ~140+, hit capped or dam near. I would remove it if I had a draenei in my group (though I'm still unclear if it just has to be any draenei, or if it has to be a draenei of a specific class - nvm, I'll go search and figure that one out myself, shouldn't be too hard to find info on).
EDIT: Draenei Hunter, Warrior and Paladins give the +Hit aura, the others give +Spellhit.
06/03/08, 3:05 AM
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