Feral Megathread - Page 163

• Astrylian · 06/05/08, 3:23 PM

Yes, Agi is the stat to stack, even when you're not hit capped. Cats do not need to be hitcapped to do optimal dps. (In fact if you are hit capped, you probably aren't in optimal gear) Certainly never gem for pure hit (agi/hit gems for yellow sockets with good socket bonuses and/or to meet the Relentless Metagem requirement).

EDIT: Clarified the use of agi/hit gems.

Adobi · 06/05/08, 3:29 PM

Originally Posted by coldbear

Noob questions:

1. Is stacking agility still the best stat even if I'm not hit-capped, or only after I am hitcapped?

2. I have both the Hourglass and the Bloodlust Brooch, but can use the apparently-not-highly-thought-of [Romulo's Poison Vial] to get myself from 100-some Hit Rating to ~140+, hit capped or dam near. I would remove it if I had a draenei in my group.

On spreadsheets and any theorycrafting, agility is better than hit all the time. Depending on how you dps, hit might prove more valuable than agility anyway. Things like powershifting and timing double-mangled rips will become alot more successfull if you are less likely to miss.

#2 isn't a question, but i would suggest getting [Shard of Contempt] and throw Romulo's out the window.

Goedel · 06/05/08, 4:00 PM

Never missing, however, would require also being "expertise capped", and nobody will achieve this now. So no matter what your hit rating, you'll be missing sometimes, which means having to pay close attention to avoid wasting unexpected extra energy.

Also, I'd modify Astrylian's "certainly never gem for hit" just slightly. Two [Glinting Pyrestone]s are fine to match a couple yellow sockets and help activate a [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond]. But other than that, the point stands.

coldbear · 06/05/08, 4:28 PM

Thanks much for the info on hit-capping not being worth it to the average new feral druid, as far as equivalent item-budget points for Agility.

I do powershift with the new macros, but timing double-mangled rips is just a little beyond my skill-level at the moment, maybe once I get a debuff addon that I don't really want cluttering my UI. Tons of ferals in my guild anyway, so usually I just shred away with another druid tanking, or freeload on them not knowing we should be divvying up Manglebot duty.

And I have been after the Shard of Contempt for a while, but I figure with the Bloodlust B and and the Hourglass I'll be fine even if I don't get good H-MGT groups together.

Very interesting though, how highly Emmerald's algorithms rank Romulo's PV. But I guess those lists are best used as a guide and nothing more.

I'll stop bothering you guys with noob questions once I manage to get Rawr working with Mono on my iMac, really can't wait for the new Mono release!

Baggles · 06/05/08, 9:23 PM

Originally Posted by Astrylian

Yes, Agi is the stat to stack, even when you're not hit capped. Cats do not need to be hitcapped to do optimal dps. (In fact if you are hit capped, you probably aren't in optimal gear) Certainly never gem for pure hit (agi/hit gems for yellow sockets with good socket bonuses and/or to meet the Relentless Metagem requirement).

EDIT: Clarified the use of agi/hit gems.

Is this always the case, though? For example, I'm a pretty well-geared feral (full t6, illidan hat, et al) and I have the [Insidious Bands] with a 5 agi/hit gem. Now, I also have the [Thunderheart Wristguards], gemmed with what will be 10 agi when I get my spinel cut. Looking at the difference, it's a, what, a net 3 agi gain & 91apen gain, and 17 hit rating loss (the ap is almost exactly the same w/kings). It seems to me that staying hit capped would outweigh the relatively meager dps gains (keep in mind, I would have the 2 yellow RED req as well as 4p t6 still, with or without the bracers). Forgive me for not running this through the multitide of spreadsheets, programs, and whatever else exists, but I don't always trust that stuff.

• Astrylian · 06/05/08, 9:51 PM

If you have T6 bracers, but not waist/feet, you should be using 2T4+4T6. If you have belt too, you should be using it, and CVoS. If you have feet too, I'm not sure which is the next piece to swap for offset, depends on what you have available. Either way, after getting T6 bracers, you shouldn't be using Insidious. Still may use a Glinting gem to get the meta requirement though.

Baggles · 06/05/08, 9:59 PM

Originally Posted by Astrylian

If you have T6 bracers, but not waist/feet, you should be using 2T4+4T6. If you have belt too, you should be using it, and CVoS. If you have feet too, I'm not sure which is the next piece to swap for offset, depends on what you have available. Either way, after getting T6 bracers, you shouldn't be using Insidious. Still may use a Glinting gem to get the meta requirement though.

Not to sidetrack, but I've long been a proponent of the 2t4/4t6 theorycraft. Since getting pretty deep into Sunwell, though, I have to say that the upgrades available are so significant that I can't see continuing to use 2t4. Between the Illidan hat, crafted gloves, felmyst legs, twins shoulders, LW bp... I mean there has to be a point where 3-4% crit and 200-300 base AP outweighs the energy proc. I'm no stranger to feral dps calculations and spreadsheets and what have you, but I think the 2t4 may be a bit overweighted.

That being said, I will try to drop some hit and see how my numbers pan out, if anything for experiment's sake.

• Astrylian · 06/05/08, 10:20 PM

Yeah, there is a point. The point is when you've been farming KJ for a while, and have absolutely everything from Sunwell.

Sadirin · 06/05/08, 11:33 PM

Some poster on Alpha-Leakboards are saying that the agility/crit/dodge ratio has changed. Cats & bears seem to loose massive amounts of dodge- and crit-% .

lvl 70 live: 15 agility = 1% dodge, 25 agility = 1% crit
lvl 70 alpha: 20 agility = 1% dodge, 40 agilty = 1% crit

Still unconfirmed, of course. And of course nothing official.

Source: WotLK Information Wiki: WotLK Alpha Official Wiki

• Astrylian · 06/05/08, 11:38 PM

Same thing happened with BC. It's to account for there being alot more of each stat on our gear.

Meddler · 06/06/08, 12:15 AM

Possibly part of the attempt to make rogue and feral clear closer matched? With the current attractiveness of agility crit rating was a distant second, shifting the balance like that makes a lot of pieces currently thought of as rogue loot more attractive. Not sure about the rational behind the dodge change, pretty hard to make any guesses off what little we know.

Nathariel · 06/06/08, 12:57 AM

Sadirin;

I think that those changes might be to get rid of the need for "Sunwell Radiance" type buffs on the mobs in Northrend.

I haven't seen the dodge and crit information posted but do you know if there are similar changes to rogues, dodge specifically, and possibly other classes as well?

seminarca · 06/06/08, 12:58 AM

Pretty sure the rationale behind the dodge change would be that avoidance is completely out of control right now. I do expect to see a drastic reduction in avoidance for all tanking classes in WotLK.

Mijae · 06/06/08, 1:12 AM

Originally Posted by Baggles

Is this always the case, though? For example, I'm a pretty well-geared feral (full t6, illidan hat, et al) and I have the [Insidious Bands] with a 5 agi/hit gem. Now, I also have the [Thunderheart Wristguards], gemmed with what will be 10 agi when I get my spinel cut. Looking at the difference, it's a, what, a net 3 agi gain & 91apen gain, and 17 hit rating loss (the ap is almost exactly the same w/kings). It seems to me that staying hit capped would outweigh the relatively meager dps gains (keep in mind, I would have the 2 yellow RED req as well as 4p t6 still, with or without the bracers). Forgive me for not running this through the multitide of spreadsheets, programs, and whatever else exists, but I don't always trust that stuff.

Current DPS models are generally only valid for straight tank-and-spank fights. However, most fights do not fall into this category. The more variables and cycle interruptions in a fight, the more valuable hit becomes. These types of mechanics are quite difficult to implement into a model. So, it is worth a damage loss to reduce misses. However, the amount is hard to pinpoint and more of a personal preference. It's pretty easy to get hit rating without sacrificing too much damage, so the general consensus is that it's worth capping. Expertise is somewhat harder to get though. [Shard of Contempt] is clearly the best trinket available. [Thunderheart Boots] end up being best in slot also. Beyond those pieces, it's difficult to say.

In the end, it comes down to play style. You could be planning your energy usage ahead of time for when to powershift, but a miss/dodge would throw it off. You might have to run out of range to melee.. did you land that last Rip and/or Mangle before running out? When you're running back in at almost full energy, did you miss your first hit and the next tick pushed your energy over 100? If you feel you could put out more damage if you never have the possibility of a miss, it could be worth sacrificing a larger amount of damage.

Do you use your active trinkets every single cooldown, otherwise you'll need to reduce the value of those items. If not, and you can use all the hit, [Romulo's Poison Vial] could actually end up better overall than even [Berserker's Call].

Edit: Oddly enough, the 10 expertise from Primal Presicion (WotLK talent) plus trinket and boots is exactly 6.5% dodge reduction (at level 70).

Soupy · 06/06/08, 6:13 AM

Originally Posted by Goedel

Never missing, however, would require also being "expertise capped", and nobody will achieve this now. So no matter what your hit rating, you'll be missing sometimes, which means having to pay close attention to avoid wasting unexpected extra energy.

Also, I'd modify Astrylian's "certainly never gem for hit" just slightly. Two [Glinting Pyrestone]s are fine to match a couple yellow sockets and help activate a [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond]. But other than that, the point stands.

Actually, it's possible to be expertise and hit capped from the back. When does a cat ever attack from the front anyway? I was for a little while until I finally got rid one of my expertise pieces. I didn't really mean to achieve this but I somehow ended up expertise capped due to a combo of good and bad luck with drops.

The expertise pieces I had were [Shard of Contempt], [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths], [Gloves of the Searing Grip] and [Shapeshifter's Signet]. Thankfully I managed to replace the ring last night.

It wasn't really ideal but it was kind of nice to not miss anything at all. I'll kind of miss that.

Since I just finally got my epic flight form, I was wondering about what fights using [Idol of the Raven Goddess] would be ideal. I'm usually in the hunter group, sometimes in the WF group if there aren't too many rogues. So far I've only been using it for Illidan in P1 and P3 and beyond since I'm a FR tank. I'd think Akama would be good for this too if you're just tanking the adds.

Sarasper · 06/06/08, 10:39 AM

Idol of the raven goddess is best used when you are dpsing and have at least 2 other physical dpsers in range of its benefit in your group.

Otherwise, Idol of terror gives you better tanking benefit. Or, Everbloom idol gives better raid dps (if only you plus 1 other gets the benefit).

Darbaramat · 06/06/08, 2:15 PM

Alright I've searched a ton and I'm frustrated. I know the answer is here somewhere and I just cannot find it.

Here's the question:
I am using the standard dps cycle with powershifting and all. Sometimes I have all my combo points up (4-5), rip is rolling, and I am starting to approach 100 energy. What should I do to ensure I don't wast mana?
Shred again, reapply rip (which sometimes isn't even possible since "a greater spell is already applied"), or just wait and waste the mana?

• Astrylian · 06/06/08, 2:18 PM

Shred more. With heavy powershifting, it's quite possible to shred an extra time or even two on almost every cycle. Save the energy for the next rip/mangle, but beyond that, use the energy for more shreds.

Baggles · 06/06/08, 3:51 PM

Originally Posted by Astrylian

Same thing happened with BC. It's to account for there being alot more of each stat on our gear.

This is not accurate, though, because when BC went live, you maintained your current stats and in fact I believe ferals gained some ap/crit, but I might be remembering that wrong. The point is that things didn't drop, only that they became less valuable as you gained levels. So right now I'm around 4k ap, 47% crit unbuffed. If I rolled in alpha with the same gear, I'd outright lose like 8-10% crit. In TBC, you lost the crit as you gained levels, because the formulas are such that as you level, stats give you less benefit. I hope this is just growing pains in Alpha and that it's corrected via level scaling.

• Astrylian · 06/06/08, 3:59 PM

I think they ended up smoothing it out in release, but pretty sure in beta, there was a steep drop in dodge/crit at 60.

Baggles · 06/06/08, 4:02 PM

Originally Posted by Astrylian

I think they ended up smoothing it out in release, but pretty sure in beta, there was a steep drop in dodge/crit at 60.

There was a sharp increase in dodge, AC, and STA from bearform, actually, but again, this is probably the kind of QQ I should save for the Alpha thread. Back to pretending level 70 is still relevant

. What's the outright %-increase that's been mathcrafted from maintaining the 2t4?

MisterMerf · 06/06/08, 5:53 PM

Originally Posted by Baggles

What's the outright %-increase that's been mathcrafted from maintaining the 2t4?

Toskk's calc says I, personally, gain 6% damage from 2T4.

That's more of an ideal condition than the value I see in practice. I get wasted procs from powershifting latency and from back-to-back procs that put me over 100 energy.

Baggles · 06/06/08, 6:51 PM

Originally Posted by MisterMerf

Toskk's calc says I, personally, gain 6% damage from 2T4.

That's more of an ideal condition than the value I see in practice. I get wasted procs from powershifting latency and from back-to-back procs that put me over 100 energy.

Yeah this is another issue I have with the proc... if you get one & a clearcast, or two in a row, or you powershift on a proc, it's outright wasted. It seems more like a 3-4% increase in practice. I'm finding myself much more inclined to drop it and just powershift more.

dukes · 06/06/08, 7:22 PM

You should always deal in experimental values, not in theoretical values. Believing that something should increase your DPS because a spreadsheet says it will does not always pan out.

I've long been a believer that 4t6 > 2t4 (before the 8 piece sets were available) as my own WWS parses were showing a significant difference in favour of 4t6.

Deal with it on a personal basis. It depends on how you shift, how often you shift, how good your reactions are, how much attention you're paying to your own DPS along with other factors.

Don't believe blindly that it will be better because something says it should be.

• Astrylian · 06/06/08, 7:25 PM

Indeed, I've tried dropping 2T4, and even also tried using Wolfshead, and always gotten huge DPS losses over using 2T4. If it works differently for you, it's good that you find that.