What's the standing on [Blackened Naaru Sliver] for Feral Druids? Where does it fit in on the spreadsheets? Is there any way to fit it into the trinket comparison?

For me, Rawr puts it on top of all the other available trinkets. But then, "for me" means pre-BT feral equip (went resto when our guild hit T6 some weeks ago).

Ah, I apologize, I had previously checked Rawr but I needed to update.

Thank you.

I remember in the early days of TBC, druids could easily out-threat warriors with their eyes closed. Then they nerfed our mitigation and our threat generation maybe a month into the expansion but I still recall even after that we were higher threat then our plated cousins. But it seems like feral threat has not scaled nearly as well as Warrior threat as we progressed through content. We're at a point in SP where if we use two ferals on Brutallus or one as MT on Felmyst, the top dps are complaining about being dps capped because threat is insufficient.

Are other ferals seeing the same relative decrease? Certainly the preponderance of +hit and +expertise on Warrior gear is part of it while its still considerably harder to find on feral tanking gear. Our druids did tend to go heavier on the +stamina gems when SP came out which means less agi = less crits = less threat. Are people switching back to Glowing Shadowsong's and Crimson Spinel's these days? I know I use the MH staff most of the time - while it isn't as high mitigation as the SSC staff, it is considerably higher threat. One of our new warriors is suggesting +2% threat to gloves but I don't see many druids with that enchant - 15 agility giving avoidance + some crit for threat itself. Can't spam the buttons any faster.

This. Stam gems do terrible terrible things to your threat gen. I recently switched guilds, and the new guild has strong enough, responsive enough healers that they can handle a high avoidance tank, so I've switched back to almost all Delicates. (still have the 18sta meta, 2 15stas, and a 7sta/5agi, but the rest are all 10agis). It was an overnight 300-400 TPS boost.

While switching from Stam to Agi gems will definitely increase your threat, the gain is nowhere near those kind of numbers. My estimates put switching one stam to agi gem at about a 4 TPS gain each when unlimited rage. Expertise and hit rating are the most valuable stats for threat, followed by strength. For example, [Shard of Contempt] is worth over 100 TPS compared to a pure tanking trinket. If threat is the largest issue, using [Idol of Brutality] is a pretty decent gain over [Idol of Terror] also (about 30 TPS).

You'll see very large gains getting moved from a tank group to the hunter group with a resto shaman (with imp totems). Buffs like Blessing of Might (also hopefully improved) instead of Blessing of Light give pretty large gains as well. It's possible Blood Frenzy, Imp Hunter's Mark, and imp Seal of the Crusader could boost your TPS more than it does your DPS (esp. compared to casters). You'll even notice a difference from a shaman that makes sure to keep totems up all the time, instead of letting them drop at all.

I rerolled druid long time ago, and I was wondering:
Is t6\t5 shoulders\helm (I mean without set bonuses) worth replacing t4 if i lose 2t4 set bonus?

Whats the best guardian elixir? I understand the question is little bit silly, but myself i'm using Elixir of Ironskin, (I think this way i save a lot of stats I would have to waste on defence rating) to put me exactly at 2.6% crit reduction. Otherwise I will have to reenchant a lot of gear, and waste sockets on defence rating. What do you think?

And yes, my tps isn't really shiny, should i ask my raid leader for an enhancement shaman in my group?

Please consider to use Rawr for direct gear questions. http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t21713-r...l_development/

The optimizer of Rawr should give you the answer.

I don't understand the complaints about threat. When i put numbers into rawr that shows the warrior i tank brut with as expected 1150 tps, while i have 1600 expected tps.
My experience isn't exactly this but i feel my tps is alot higher than any warrior's. I put 15sta in blue sockets, 10agi in red and 5agi 5hit in yellow.

Because of pushing our DPS as much as possible (sometimes anyway) and M'uru in general, TPS is as important for me as Mitigation, both of which have trumped Survivability. I have definitely gone from a Agi/Sta balance to stacking agi, as well as fitting more Hit and Expertise than usual. [Shard of Contempt] is effectively a must have trinket until you get [Thunderheart Treads] and [Collar of the Pit Lord]. Of my other trinkets (I don't have [Shadowmoon Insignia]) I end up using [Badge of Tenacity] being the only item that adds to both threat and mitigation. On 3 Mobs, with 75% avoidance, my TPS is an average of 2k, specifically in the case of door tanking M'uru I find that I'm never rage starved with at least 2 adds hitting me.

The Badge gloves are very well made, and if not for the massive hit loss over T6, the badge legs would also be amazing. On the note of Haste, [Drums of Battle] make Leatherworking a must for raiders at this point, the TPS gain from simply getting more Mauls is impressive.

I know that for many it means a trip back in time, but simply getting a spare T6 helm and using the dps Metagem instead of the sta/stun one does wonders for threat.

At full T6 now I'm gradually regemming from the "all stamina" approach we needed when learning Brutallus. IF it's still not enough for Muru I'll probably start fighting the dps classes for the Crimson Spinels at that point.

Not a bad setup, and I've been playing around with my gear trying to make a 'threat' tanking set. I am currently logged out in it if you want to take a look at it, I may try and using the badge vendor belt or boots of natural power for this set. Also, it seems impossible to get to 34k~ armor with this set, which could hurt but this set does seem to offer much more dodge. For example, almost close to 44% (that would be with windfury staff) dodge in caster form unbuffed compared to the normal tanking set.

The current release of Rawr rather significantly overestimates feral TPS. You can still use it to find which gear will give you the most TPS, but you prolly want to chop off 1/4 of what it says you should get, to see what you really should get. That's not exactly correct, but it's at least in the right ballpark.

I've found that if I can get put into the melee group, which happens about half the time, my threat skyrockets. Having unleashed rage and SoE and the occasional bloodlust helps tremendously.

The biggest problem with stacking avoidance is the lack of rage; not being able to maul for a few seconds is going to be a much bigger hit to threat than not critting mangle, and that does happen occasionally when taking high avoidance. Still, it seems that stam stacking is becoming much worse than it used to, and most of the fights that I'm tanking are encouraging high avoidance.

I also have been using the [Staff of the Forest Lord] a lot more. While it doesn't give as much armor, and that can hurt, as long as a shaman is healing me I'm usually gaining another % of dodge plus a ton of threat.

Well i must really say when it comes too tanking the Berserkers and the mages onto M'uru its a hard work too keep the threat up aswell too take less dmg, but i have about 62-63% dodge there and i have Constant 100% rage. Haveing a paladin healing me i rather have Might instead of Light and there is no problem at all keeping me up.

Ofc we dont sheep anything on the sides even if we could, instead the melee groups go full out on the mage the instant it enters the room. Current gear for that fight: The World of Warcraft Armory


when it comes too Brutallus i find it a bit weird becouse we never have any issue with him even tho most of the classes go fullout almost from start, but then again if a mage or warlock is over me and i taunt i get his threat ontop of mine it seems or they would have died ages ago.


Well just a tip if you gona tank KJ as feral go Full DPS gear and like 1-2 tank items like Expertise neck from Brutallus + chest and or legs from Felmyst. Make sure you have alot of Expertise / hit and Armor ignore.

Here is our last WWS and we have rather sick dps
Wow Web Stats

can add that my TPS is 2.2k+ and peak at 3.8k without any Missdirections. Didnt have Battle shout at all time either.

I think a fair few guilds are approaching Brutallus now, so I thought I'd post this guide I made for the other tanks in our guild who haven't tried him yet:

We use VT to arrange tank swaps - the tank with aggro says "3" when he has 3 Meteor Slashes, the taunting tank then says "Taunting". This arrangement allows the MT healers to arrange changing targets easily. Obviously amend this as required for your guild.


Brutallus

Ok, Brutallus is just about the most challenging fight in Sunwell so far for a Druid - you need to dps, tank and watch timer bars so that you use skills and potions at the correct time. Good luck


Preparation

First of, you need large quantities of the following:
[Ironshield Potion] - 3 for every attempt
[Scroll of Protection V] - 1 for every attempt
[Adamantite Weightstone] - to improve threat
Any 30stamina food
Flasks or Elixirs, depending on how you set up your gear.

On top of this, you need a good quantity of the following to be "fully" buffed
[Scroll of Agility V] - 1 for every attempt if possible
[Scroll of Strength V] - 1 for every attempt if possible

Finally, you will need a macro:
This macro will use a potion (taking you out of Catform in the process) and cast Barkskin all in one keypress and using a single global cooldown. You can then go Bearform and should have around 10secs left on Barkskin to tank with.


Gear
Gear wise, you need your best gear, gemmed fully to epic standards and fully enchanted. This is a tough one.

You should aim for maximum Armor - for the pruposes of this fight there is no armor cap - just stack as much armor as possible. After this you need as much stamina as possible - you should be around 23-24k HP fully buffed or higher for this fight. Once you have armor and stamina sorted, then try and get as much dodge and hit/expertise as you can.
My gear recommendations here are for someone just starting to tank Brutallus, once you have full T6 you have a little more room to improve threat and dodge without affecting too much your survivability on the fight.

Recommendations:
All your T6
Blade's Edge Mountains trinket: [Badge of Tenacity]
[Commendation of Kael'thas]
[Idol of Terror]
[Wildfury Greatstaff] or [Pillar of Ferocity]

If you don't have the Sunwell T6, the following are good alternatives:
[Treads of the Den Mother]
[Pattern: Belt of Natural Power]
S3 Bracers or badge reward bracers

Remember you need -2.6% chance to be crit from gear. You can use a mix of resilience and defence to get this, defence is marginally better due to the dodge you gain from it, but resilience may allow you to balance this out using better gear elsewhere.



The Fight

First thing to mention here - WATCH THE TIMER BARS. Seriously, the boss timer bars from BigWigs are the most important thing to look at in this fight, along with how many stacks of Meteor Slash you have while tanking.


The Pull
The Boss will be misdirected onto the 1st tank. Cast Faerie Fire while he is running in, then commence dps on the boss. Mind your aggro at the start and use Drums if you have them - it's best to arrange with any other Drum users in your group that you will always use your Drums first and let them use theirs after yours every time. This will allow you to just use Drums throughout the fight when the cooldown is available without needing to watch if they are already up on your group.

DPS/Tanking Rotations
Ok, so the boss is tanked and you are dps-ing. You need to WATCH THE TIMER BARS! What you need to do is be ready to tank as soon as the tank receives his 3rd Meteor Slash. On the first round you need to closely WATCH THE TIMER BARS so that you know when this is going to arrive. The basic rule at the start of the fight only is that the 3rd Meteor Slash will arrive fairly soon after the first Stomp as follows:

Meteor Slash #1 (keep dps-ing)
Meteor Slash #2 (keep dps-ing)
Stomp (look at timer bars and get ready to go Bearform and tank)
Meteor Slash #3 (you need to be in Bearform, with an Ironshiled Potion and Barkskin running ready to taunt as soon as you hear the other tank say "3" on VT.

The way this works in practice, and for all occasions where you need to tank is as follows:

At around 9 seconds before the 3rd Meteor Slash you need to prepare to tank.
If you don't have an Ironshield Potion running then use your macro to take one, else just use Barkskin.
Go Bearform
Wait to hear "3" on VT
As soon as you hear "3", say "Taunting" on Vt and Taunt the boss.
Now you need to build a LOT of threat - the whole aid is nuking like mad.
My rotation here is: Taunt > Mangle > Maul > Lacerate. After this you need to use a max threat rotation. Rage isn't an issue here so basically you need to keep Maul up at all times (so that you Maul instead of autoattacking on every swing), Mangle every time the cooldown is up. Lacerate until you have 5 stacks, Swipe if Lacerate is at 5 stacks. Repeat this rotation but don't forget that you also need to cast Faerie Fire every 25seconds (if it resists keep casting it until it sticks).

Ok, while you are doing all this, make sure you cast Drums if the cooldown is available.

By the way, I hope you are still WATCHING THE TIMER BARS? When Stomp hits you need to either use your Trinket is it's available, or use Frenzied Regeneration if it isn't.
Also look at your stack of Meteor Slash debuffs Once you get 2 debuffs you need to be watching for the 3rd Meteor Slash. As soon as it hits you, say "3" on VT and wait for the other tank to taunt the boss off you.

Once the boss is taunted successfully, go Catform again and resume DPS.

You repeat the tanking and dps cycle until the end of the fight. Timing of your turn to tank becomes a little easier now because you can look at your Slash debuffs, when your stack gets down to 10secs then you know that the 3rd Meteor Slash is due on the other tank and you need to get ready.



However, that's not all.... you didn't think it was going to be did you? Read on...



Stomp Avoidance
Ok, you should have the normal tank/dps cycles worked out by now, but there's one more trick you need to use during the fight. Stomp Avoidance.

The Meteor Slash and Stomp timers are on different cooldowns. Therefore in the middle phase of the fight, they sync very closely. What we need to do in this part of the fight is to try and work it so that the tank being hit "misses" the Stomp by waiting until the other tank has Stomp before immediately taunting. This saves the healers a lot of trouble in that phase of the fight and also allows the Warrior Tank to spread out his trinket usage and the use of his timed abilities (Last Stand etc) to give himself the best chance of survival.

The key to successfully avoding Stomps is to (yes, you guessed it) WATCH YOUR TIMER BARS.

Basically you need to watch to Stomp and the 3rd Meteor Slash timer bars syncing to within 1-3secs of each other. The easiest way to show this is a follows:

You are tanking:

5----------4----------3----------2----------1----------3rd Meteor Slash----------1----------2----------3---------4----------5----------
----8----------7----------6----------5----------4----------3----------2----------1----------Stomp----------1----------2----------3

The above shows your timer bars. You can see that your 3rd Meteor Slash will hit, then 1-2secs later a Stomp will hit. In this case it would be pretty dangerous for the other tank to taunt as soon as the 3rd Meteor Slash hits you because he would then need to tank with the Stomp debuff while the healers are still ramping up from the tank swap.
What you do in this case is that you DO NOT say "3" as soon as the 3rd Slash hits. You wait until you see the Stomp Animation from the boss and you take the Stomp debuff. You then IMMEDIATELY say "3" on VT to cue the other tank to taunt.
Doing this correctly will mean that you take the Stomp, the other tank taunts and then will be able to tank the whole phase without a Stomp debuff.


That's about it then. Arguably the most challenging fight for a Feral Tank before Muru. You need to tank successfully and out-threat a fully buffed dps-heavy raid and also contribute decent dps in Catform (you should be able to get around 700dps over the fight). On top of this you need to use Potions, Barkskin and trinkets to mitigate as much damage as possible. Its a very intense fight and a true test of single target tanking and multi-role playing for a Druid.


I've made a handy flow-chart of the fight for your pleasure

There's more than 1 way to spank a pitlord.

If the second tank taunts on the first stomp and you always try to sync taunt with stomp as best you can, no tank will take a full stomp until the sixth or seventh stomp.

I don't use lacerate on Brutallus. I don't think the 5 global cooldowns is worth it to get 5 stacks up when i'm only going to be tanking for 40 seconds. With T6 gear and an arms warrior swipe should hit for 280+ anyway.

You shouldn't need the other tank calling out 3 either, it's very easy to keep track of what's going on. If you have to wait for him to call out 3 and stomp is going to hit right after meteor slash, he will take 4 seconds of stomp for no reason.

A small trick for threat is to time your last rip while in cat so that it will tick a bit after your taunt. 3 900 ticks is like a free mangle.

"A small trick for threat is to time your last rip while in cat so that it will tick a bit after your taunt. 3 900 ticks is like a free mangle."

I just wondered how threat is calculated in this particular case. Does Rip-damage "suffer" from Cat Form threat reduction, or will it receive the threat modifiers from Bear Form and Feral Instanct after switching to Bear Form?

It's not for the other tank's benefit. It's for the healers - they have more to think about than watching timer progress bars. Simple is always win on boss fights. We call out 5second warnings for Stomp and Tank swaps on VT so that they can focus on healing alone.

Trying to explain the nuances of the fight is pretty impossible - you need to see it to "get it" mostly - the guide is basically for someone who has never seen the fight before to short-cut some of the learning process.

Nice guide :-). Few comments:

- No decision making is needed when preparing for taunt. Just use (from cat form)
You may want to add
for stomps within 30 seconds after taunt.

- What we do about stomps, and i find it better than what you describe, is that tank announces "taunting in X seconds" on vent. He does so based on his evaluation of current stomp / slash timers. Announcing "3" after you have received 3rd debuff is too late in my opinion.

Nice write up on Brutallus, although you make it seem a lot more complicated than it really is. Also, as the druid, I always start as the first tank since my threat output is higher than my warrior counter part. Also, this allows Brutallus to be fully debuffed when the tank takes over, which immediately allows him to get into an optimal threat cycle. This also puts him in the tanking rotation to have Brutallus last, so he has last stand and what not and you can be finishing off as DPS. Also regarding taunting, like others suggested, we do a 3, 2, 1, taunting count down to help the healers trasitition easily. Also, I hardly find the fight challenging, but rather very fun. Its a very unique fight that allows you as a Druid to maximize you roles as both a tank (high threat) and a DPS in the very same fight. So far my best for this fight is 905 DPS, which most of our kills in the upper 800's. The most of the burden on this fight lies with the healers, as is the case for all of Sunwell.

Wouldn't mind an answer to this either.