You can eliminate most of the burst dmg with clever use of bash and a melee shaman constantly shocking the fireballs. So you end up taking most of the damage from berserkers. I would not go under 15-16k HP i think thats the barrier where you are not risking too much. But on the other side lowers more avoidance the chance to get a burst spike of 2-3 hits and a fireball. With 90% avoidance the chance that you get hit two times in a row is 1%, it will happen in a fight but the chance that you get a fireball at the same time is very small.
It's pretty much about how you control the mage, you can zerg her right off the start and stun lock her or sheep her, but she needs to be controlled. Foofer - WWS
Take a look at foofer's WWS, he didn't get a single fireball hit from the mage, just shadow and phyical damage from the beserkers.
What kind of tanking rotations do you use for M'uru adds, assuming that you're tanking all 3 and the mage isn't going to be cc'd. What we do is kill the mage, I mark a beserker, that is killed after the mage, then the unmarked beserker is killed.
I tank ramp side and I've been starting with a white hit on the mage, then a swipe on all 3. Swipe again, mark one of the beserkers, maul it, swipe, mangle the mage, swipe, tab to the unmarked beserker, maul it, swipe, maul the mage, swipe, maul the marked add, swipe, mangle the unmarked add, swipe, etc.
I'm admittedly a bit undergeared for this and have been struggling to build enough threat with blade flurry rogues/sweeping strikes/whirlwinding warrior.
What I use for gear is:
T6 helm with 15 stam socket, 18 stam w/ stun resist meta, 18 stam / 20 resil enchant.
Brooch of Deftness
T6 shoulders with 15 stam sockets, 15 defense/10 dodge enchant
Slikk's cloak of placation with 12 agi.
T6 chest w/ 15 stam all sockets, +6 all stats enchant
Vindicator's dragonhide bracers with 15 stam socket, 12 stam enchant
T6 gloves w/ 15 stam socket, 15 agi enchant
Belt of natural power w/ 15 stam all sockets
T6 pants w/ 15 stam socket, 40 stam + 12 agi enchant
Treads of the Den mother w/ 12 stam enchant
Band of the Abyssal Lord
Ring of Stalwart protector
Guardian alchemist's stone (wtb shadowmoon insignia )
Commendation of Kael'thas
Pillar of Ferocity / Idol of Terror
I have a 2nd T6 helm I can sub in, as well as T6 belt. I don't have the twins' staff or T6 bracers yet, or any offset Sunwell loot.
With this my unbuffed hp in bear is 20679, 31710 armor, 35% dodge, 2316 ap, 29.47% crit.
What kind of gear substitutions should I make that are available to me? Can I improve my tanking rotation?
EDIT: Wow, Taurela posted the exact same question as me right after I started writing my post. You guys can ignore this one if you like
Since we're talking about tanking M'uru adds, I figured I'd ask: How do you guys effectively hold aggro over multiple targets that are all taking DPS simultaneously (including stuff other than M'uru adds)? I've read that you want your rogues to be blade flurrying, warriors to be cleaving/sweeping, etc on M'uru adds... and I know from experience that swipe spamming is just not going to cut it on the second and third mobs. So, what kind of rotation to do you use to get a few direct attacks off on your secondary (and tertiary) tank targets while not losing aggro on your primary target?
I've been fortunate (unfortunate?) enough to have a prot pally in every AOE-fest raid (read Hyjal trash), so it hasn't come down to me going all out TPS on more than one target. I've gotten some practice for fun by pulling 2 aboms out of the consecrate and alternating mangles while swipe spamming, but I'm not sure I was doing it well enough that I'd be able to hold multiple targets off of the melee attackers hitting more than one target at a time.
Well, for starters having a stun in there wouldn't hurt.
It looks to me like you've neglected avoidance and neglected armor for this fight. You've got a boatload of HP, but that doesn't help as much for this as making sure you avoid a lot of attacks and do a lot of threat.
For starters, I'd re-enchant things. You've got a lot of stamina enchants that force you to use the guardian's alchemist stone. If you enchanted the bracers with defense, the chest with resilience, and the cloak with defense you could use something like a badge of tenacity or moroes' pocket watch. Or if you need more threat, you could use a shard of contempt.
On that note - what do people think about using Brutal Impact for this instead of Savage Fury for the adds? 1 second seems like a fairly long time when you're talking flurrying mobs.
I haven't gotten to M'uru quite yet, but if you use Omen, you can just click between the adds, and stay on whichever has people closest to you on threat while spamming mangle/maul/swipe, so whichever you're closest to losing aggro on is getting the mauls/mangles.
Does anyone how accurate the equations from this post, #3487, are?
I've done some work on a mathematical model that would show you at which point it's better to swipe spam than to lacerate spam (perhaps something for the RAWR bear model?) after you give it your crit and attack power and all I need now are proper equations to determine the initial lacerate damage and the tick from your AP.
You can eliminate most of the burst dmg with clever use of bash and a melee shaman constantly shocking the fireballs. So you end up taking most of the damage from berserkers. I would not go under 15-16k HP i think thats the barrier where you are not risking too much. But on the other side lowers more avoidance the chance to get a burst spike of 2-3 hits and a fireball. With 90% avoidance the chance that you get hit two times in a row is 1%, it will happen in a fight but the chance that you get a fireball at the same time is very small.
You can't shock an instant fireball. Obviously if any of the casttimed ones get through, the melee group fails. :P
Sweeeet. I'm gunna have to play around with this once I get off work. This + mouseover macros for Mangle and Swipe = the ultimate aoe tanking setup. I'll have to take a pocket healer/mage into heroic shattered halls and give a run through once I get it set up.
What kind of tanking rotations do you use for M'uru adds, assuming that you're tanking all 3 and the mage isn't going to be cc'd. What we do is kill the mage, I mark a beserker, that is killed after the mage, then the unmarked beserker is killed.
I tank ramp side and I've been starting with a white hit on the mage, then a swipe on all 3. Swipe again, mark one of the beserkers, maul it, swipe, mangle the mage, swipe, tab to the unmarked beserker, maul it, swipe, maul the mage, swipe, maul the marked add, swipe, mangle the unmarked add, swipe, etc.
I'm admittedly a bit undergeared for this and have been struggling to build enough threat with blade flurry rogues/sweeping strikes/whirlwinding warrior.
What I use for gear is:
T6 helm with 15 stam socket, 18 stam w/ stun resist meta, 18 stam / 20 resil enchant.
Brooch of Deftness
T6 shoulders with 15 stam sockets, 15 defense/10 dodge enchant
Slikk's cloak of placation with 12 agi.
T6 chest w/ 15 stam all sockets, +6 all stats enchant
Vindicator's dragonhide bracers with 15 stam socket, 12 stam enchant
T6 gloves w/ 15 stam socket, 15 agi enchant
Belt of natural power w/ 15 stam all sockets
T6 pants w/ 15 stam socket, 40 stam + 12 agi enchant
Treads of the Den mother w/ 12 stam enchant
Band of the Abyssal Lord
Ring of Stalwart protector
Guardian alchemist's stone (wtb shadowmoon insignia )
Commendation of Kael'thas
Pillar of Ferocity / Idol of Terror
I have a 2nd T6 helm I can sub in, as well as T6 belt. I don't have the twins' staff or T6 bracers yet, or any offset Sunwell loot.
With this my unbuffed hp in bear is 20679, 31710 armor, 35% dodge, 2316 ap, 29.47% crit.
What kind of gear substitutions should I make that are available to me? Can I improve my tanking rotation?
Thanks.
The adds are all about dodge, re-gem or get another t6 set with pure agi gems, and even go with the meta gem with +12 agi, trust me on this. I wouldn't tank this unless I had 55-56% dodge in bear form unbuffed. Also, I just got my staff from Twins, and I'll be using that to tank for threat/agi and I don't mind losing the armor for it.
We do Zerk>Mage>zerk killing order. For M'uru, I generally build aggro on first aggro target going all out until he reaches 50%, then switch off and mangle+ maul x3 the Mage, then build max aggro on the second berserker
If we were to do Mage>Zerk>zerk (which a lot of guilds do), I would build aggro on mage until 80% and then switch off, and then build threat on one of the zerkers and then switch off as needed.
In general you should have an idea by the good attempts (after losing to him 2340408024 attempts) how much your DPs can do before he pulls aggro, so you just need to build enough aggro so that the DPS can't reach that threat point before the mob dies.
You can't shock an instant fireball. Obviously if any of the casttimed ones get through, the melee group fails. :P
We have fast mages, and in case of resists the melee shaman purges . I do get fireballs, perhaps one from every wave, but it doesn`t kill me.
For threat, we start with mage first and i go all out doing mangle/maul/swipe. The trick is that the rogues and warriors start bombing when the mage is down and i simply switch to the first berserker when the mage is at 40%. After one mangle/maul i switch to the next one. At that point i have approx 11-12k threat on the Berserkers, thats enough to start bombing.
so you just need to build enough aggro so that the DPS can't reach that threat point before the mob dies.
25k should be fine. If one DPSer is outperforming the others so much that he pulls aggro from 25k, chances are you aren't killing the adds in time anyway.
I am now very comfortable with my muru tanking set, i have 84% dodge+miss according to wws and around 17k HP. I can be solo healed by a single resto shaman who is casting chainheal on me.
(...)
Could you link that wws please? I did some comparisons between our druids first (and so far only) M'uru tries and some other wws to see in actual numbers just how much diffrence avoidance makes.
Oh and while I´m at it - I realized there was quite some diffrence in average damage per hit taken from the berserkers too. While one of our druids took an average of 913 damage per hit most other "good" example druid tanks took about 600 damage per hit on average. Now considering our druid had armor capped (I´m sure he did as he stated he used his normal tank gear on our first tries) and used demo roar what else is there that´d explain such a big diffrence? I think the sample size of 171 hits is big enough to assume this wasn´t all just bad luck.
Could you link that wws please? I did some comparisons between our druids first (and so far only) M'uru tries and some other wws to see in actual numbers just how much diffrence avoidance makes.
Oh and while I´m at it - I realized there was quite some diffrence in average damage per hit taken from the berserkers too. While one of our druids took an average of 913 damage per hit most other "good" example druid tanks took about 600 damage per hit on average. Now considering our druid had armor capped (I´m sure he did as he stated he used his normal tank gear on our first tries) and used demo roar what else is there that´d explain such a big diffrence? I think the sample size of 171 hits is big enough to assume this wasn´t all just bad luck.
Could you link that wws please? I did some comparisons between our druids first (and so far only) M'uru tries and some other wws to see in actual numbers just how much diffrence avoidance makes.
Oh and while I´m at it - I realized there was quite some diffrence in average damage per hit taken from the berserkers too. While one of our druids took an average of 913 damage per hit most other "good" example druid tanks took about 600 damage per hit on average. Now considering our druid had armor capped (I´m sure he did as he stated he used his normal tank gear on our first tries) and used demo roar what else is there that´d explain such a big diffrence? I think the sample size of 171 hits is big enough to assume this wasn´t all just bad luck.
I took an average of 700 damage from berzerkers as per Wow Web Stats but there are many reasons why average damage might be higher. Is your druid bashing the berzerkers during the flurry? Are the rogue(s) stunning during flurry?(if not they would have a much higher flurry up time) Do you have a warrior on his side with Imp Demo shout? My side is usually enhancement shaman, rogue, fury warrior (with imp demo and doing TC), and either another rogue or bm hunter. I've been healed by a paladin and shaman bouncing chain heals or a priest and a shaman and haven't been bursted down since the first week of attempts.
As for tanking, i usually start off by tabbing into the first mob that enters through the invisible wall and swiping until all 3 mobs pass through. They have some awful pathing and sometimes go back through the door and/or immediately ignore your initial attacks and dart off and then snap back. I find it really useful to have a frost trap or earthbind totem up to slow them initially. Dps is usually safe to go in once the mobs stop moving and i dont really tank the mage. At the beginning i'll throw a maul/mangle and then turn to our marked zerker and begin building threat on it while swiping the other 2. Growl tanking the mage is probably the best thing to do so your dps can aoe on the last 2 zerkers. If you find your mage killing people with fireballs you can tab bash it in between growl cooldowns but it shouldn't be a big deal if you have a rogue stun tanking it.
I am currently in my M'uru tank set, and while I am low on armor and with a small HP pool, I still feel pretty safe because I don't recall getting spiked to death besides one attempt, where I missed an add and I went chasing it while I got dazed from other and it hit me 5-6 times in a row in the back, and I didn't dodge a single swing.
I am sitting around close to 74% dodge with raid buffs plus grace of air, since I do have an enhancement shaman in our melee group (Yes!!), along with that I am keeping up mangle every time it's up so the idol procs, too.
Another thing I noticed was with this gear, I have a lot of aglitliy, and a good amount of hit so threat really hasn't been an issue. I had a few string of big crits of maul/mangles where I would spike to 1.9k-2k TPS on omen, and we've been killing adds pretty fast without any aggro problems and I think we have good 3-4 seconds before the next wave spawns. Proper drum rotation helps here a lot with the melee group you are running.
Flurry: "Attack speed increased by 100%. Movement speed increased by 100%."
Correct me if I´m wrong but if flurry only increases attack and movement speed it shouldn´t affect how much damage the berserker does per hit. So even though it´s recommended to bash or otherwise stun them during flurry it shouldn´t impact on the average damage per hit. With Angi taking even less damage per hit (446 using the standard 2.4 renderer) I´m starting to wonder if wws considers dodges and misses as 0 damage hits in its calculations...
Flurry: "Attack speed increased by 100%. Movement speed increased by 100%."
Correct me if I´m wrong but if flurry only increases attack and movement speed it shouldn´t affect how much damage the berserker does per hit. So even though it´s recommended to bash or otherwise stun them during flurry it shouldn´t impact on the average damage per hit. With Angi taking even less damage per hit (446 using the standard 2.4 renderer) I´m starting to wonder if wws considers dodges and misses as 0 damage hits in its calculations...
It does. If you check the first tab, angi only takes 147 physical hits (total), but the breakdown has the beserker average calculated off over 800 hits.
It does. If you check the first tab, angi only takes 147 physical hits (total), but the breakdown has the beserker average calculated off over 800 hits.
Ok this explains the low average damage per hit even though I think it´s kind of unintuative to calculate it this way. I guess the max hit is a much better indicator for pure mitigation than.
06/26/08, 11:46 AM
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. I do get fireballs, perhaps one from every wave, but it doesn`t kill me. 
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