Feral Megathread - Page 174

kalbear · 07/02/08, 4:55 PM

Why not have two ferals for the tanks on Brutallus and have the warriors sitting out? That will maximize the damage you can do, Brutallus doesn't crush, and if you go for more avoidance you should be pretty good in that setup.

TimWischmeier · 07/02/08, 5:01 PM

Originally Posted by kalbear

Why not have two ferals for the tanks on Brutallus and have the warriors sitting out? That will maximize the damage you can do, Brutallus doesn't crush, and if you go for more avoidance you should be pretty good in that setup.

Our guild leaders try to run as much of an instance with the same setup, where possible (I like this, as I personally feel this is more motivating). So while using 2 ferals on brutallus and have the 2 warriors sitting out might result in potentially higher damage (which is not necessarily true), this would not be an option for us as long as killing him with 1f/1w or 2w as tanks is not impossible.

So we currently value the possibility of keeping as much players as possible in the setup higher than having some more wipes because a lineup is a bit more difficult to play.

kalbear · 07/02/08, 5:32 PM

Sorry; I thought that you were asking whether you should sit out one feral or two in favor of the warrior tanks. I figured that sitting out one warrior or two in favor of the ferals would be reasonable.

I don't see how it's remotely debatable whether the prot warrior could do less damage than the feral druids when they're not tanking. Prot warriors can do decent DPS when geared for DPS, but a prot warrior only switching weapons/gun isn't going to do as much damage as a feral going from bear to cat.

If your other DPS is very, very good you could bring two cats, but it would be tough. If you do that, I'd recommend maximizing the benefit of LotP and putting one with the hunters and another with the melee if possible (and if it doesn't hurt another melee). Barring that, both in the hunter group would be best.

• Astrylian · 07/02/08, 5:52 PM

Feral/Feral is actually likely lower damage than Feral/ProtWarr, because then a DPS Warr has to terribly gimp their DPS by keeping up Imp TClap, if not DemoShout as well.

kalbear · 07/02/08, 6:00 PM

Demo shout can be taken care of by one of the ferals - it's not perfect, but it's probably good enough given Brutallus' overall damage. ImpTC...how much does that really gimp a fury warrior's DPS? I honestly don't know.

• Astrylian · 07/02/08, 6:08 PM

Alot. They have to stance dance (and lose all their rage) to do it.

And if you've got 3 locks, it'll be better to CoW than demo roar. :P

Mijae · 07/02/08, 6:32 PM

On Brutallus you basically need the average dps of over 1700 per person (depending on number of healers). A decently geared and well played feral can exceed that with proper buffs.

I estimate my dps gear 4t6/2t4 (only bracers from SW) in a melee group at just over 1900 dps (enh shm, ms war, 3 blessings, 4 drums, demonslaying elixir, haste potions, 1 shift per cycle, other druid mangle). The hunter group would be a bit less depending on if improved totems, number of drums and number of hunters; slightly under 1800. Those are of course with perfect rotations, but even messing up slightly you should still get at least near 1700 dps. Those numbers don't count using any scrolls or getting bloodlusts either.

Yes you need to go all out on consumables, but everyone should be for that fight.

Valerian · 07/02/08, 7:40 PM

Originally Posted by Astrylian

Though oddly enough, that looks like exactly what we'll be doing in WotLK, based on the current talent trees, what with FB always critting against bleeding mobs.

Don't warriors get a talent to improve bleed damage by 30%? Even with a nearly 100% crit rate I suspect Rip benefitting from this and mangle is going to be better (barring some crazy change in base damage and scaling).

• Astrylian · 07/02/08, 11:13 PM

Aye, true. We'll have to run the numbers if the current cycle will still be best, or if 'keep mangle and rake up, spam shred, and bite+powershift at 5cp' will be better. I don't plan to bother with those calculations for a while though, prolly til lvl80 is playable in beta.

Tierlac · 07/03/08, 3:52 AM

I have a 70 NE druid that raids lower content then what my main does, Dragonia on Bonechewer and have a good question.

I've been having a disscusion amongst my guild about Demoralizing Roar. Some of them are saying it produces aggro. Now I went out armed with both KTM and Omen and tested this theory. Then it lead me to test other non-damagaing aggro generators. The result at least on KTM/Omen was that Demoralizng Roar produced absolutly ) aggro generation where as all the other skills, Faerie Fire, Shapeshifting, rage and Frenzed Regeneration did. I've looked all over for any type of evidence to this and the only thing that I could find that would did state that Demo Roar did infact produce aggo was here

Demoralizing Roar - WoW: IncGamers World of Warcraft Wiki

Now it's listed that this skill produces Moderate threat. Thier definition of moderate threat is-
MODERATE Threat - Skills with normal threat generation, such as a hit, a heal, or a damaging spell without positive or negative threat modifiers.

Farie Fire, Shapeshifting (besides Frenzied regen) and the other non damaging things that a tank can do count as this category also and if so why is it these other skills show up on Omen/KTM and not Demo Roar and fall under the NEGLIGIBLE - Skills with no intention of threat, but have an extremely low threat value anyway. Most buffs go into this category, and most harmless debuffs.
. I'd like to hear some input on this

Inaiwae · 07/03/08, 4:28 AM

Originally Posted by kalbear

Inaiwae, I'm not arguing that the elixir of ironskin is more item points than the other values. I'm arguing that there are fights where it is not that helpful, and that 30 resilience doesn't matter in certain circumstances. Quite a few. Now, if you can maximize your setup such that using an elixir of ironskin and an elixir of agility is the best for that fight, that's great. I'm saying that 30 resilience isn't always the best choice. For example, instead of using the Thunderheart bracers, why not use Band of the Swift paw? You lose threat but gain more effective health.

I also don't understand why you would regem from 15 stam to 10 def. There's no need for that; you can get around it via enchants for the most part. Gems are way worse on the item economy than enchants are. But I don't know what your setup was, so perhaps that's the only way you can do it.

As to the item value - this only matters if you can be perfectly itemized. It doesn't matter that you can get either 30 resilience or 250 HP unless what you're replacing is perfectly itemized. The Thunderhearts, for instance, aren't. They waste budget on int and armor pen. So while agility + ironskin is more item points, that doesn't mean they're useful item points. This is why pvp gear works so well - because it's actually well-itemized for tanking, whereas so much other gear is not.

I'd agree that using 30 resilience is not good when you are close to be crit immune without it, but so far (we're at felmyst now) i was never in a situation where i couldnt make use of the resilience. I had to regem / reenchant few times, but it was always possible. Now i am cca 3 resilience over the crit cap when using the elixir.

EDIT: i forgot to say that this applies for t6 level, i am not sure what the situation is at lower tiers

Of course there are fights where you dont need it. I dont need it on Gurtogg for example because my avoidance setup contains shadowmoon insignia, or on Illidan where i use flask of chromatic wonder. But i do use it for majority of the fights. Also for trash, which i tank in half dps gear and with the elixir i am crit immune vs lvl 71 mobs.

Gems - yes, the enchants were already there, the gems were the last possibility. I could replace gear pieces but i wanted to evaluate the consumables so i did as little changes as possible.

While the t6 bracers might not have optimal stat distribution, they are still the better than the pvp ones mitigation wise. And pvp bracers also waste item budget, on crit rating. As an example, if i didnt use ironskin elixir, i'd have to use PVP bracers with socket bonus (19 res.) and then probably enchant defense on cloak or be a JC and gem 12 defense or gem 10 resilience. Typically you are not a JC, so for example:

Ironskin + Thunderheart bracers + 15 stamina gem (elsewhere, red gem is needed for socket bonus):
30 resilience, 28 agility, 281 armor, 57 stamina (15 from gem, 39 + 3 from bracers)

Fortitude + Vindicator bracers + 10 resilience gem (elsewhere, red gem is needed for socket bonus):
29 resilience, 22 agility, 236 armor, 45 stamina (29 from bracers, 16 from Fortitude elixir)

Difference: 1 resilience, 6 agility, 45 armor, 12 stamina in favor of Elixir of Ironskin.

Rannasha · 07/03/08, 4:43 AM

Originally Posted by Tierlac

I have a 70 NE druid that raids lower content then what my main does, Dragonia on Bonechewer and have a good question.

I've been having a disscusion amongst my guild about Demoralizing Roar. Some of them are saying it produces aggro. Now I went out armed with both KTM and Omen and tested this theory. Then it lead me to test other non-damagaing aggro generators. The result at least on KTM/Omen was that Demoralizng Roar produced absolutly ) aggro generation where as all the other skills, Faerie Fire, Shapeshifting, rage and Frenzed Regeneration did. I've looked all over for any type of evidence to this and the only thing that I could find that would did state that Demo Roar did infact produce aggo was here

Demoralizing Roar - WoW: IncGamers World of Warcraft Wiki

Now it's listed that this skill produces Moderate threat. Thier definition of moderate threat is-
MODERATE Threat - Skills with normal threat generation, such as a hit, a heal, or a damaging spell without positive or negative threat modifiers.

Farie Fire, Shapeshifting (besides Frenzied regen) and the other non damaging things that a tank can do count as this category also and if so why is it these other skills show up on Omen/KTM and not Demo Roar and fall under the NEGLIGIBLE - Skills with no intention of threat, but have an extremely low threat value anyway. Most buffs go into this category, and most harmless debuffs.
. I'd like to hear some input on this

Omen and KTM are user-created addons, they're based on extensive testing to determine the threat-values of each move and there accuracy is therefore limited.

If i recall correctly, Demoralizing Roar generates a fixed amount of threat that is split between all the mobs affected by it. I reckon it is quite hard for an addon to determine exactly how many mobs are affected by one application of Demo Roar. Hence they might have opted to err on the cautious side, and don't count Demo Roar.

To verify that the ability indeed generates threat, have someone (preferably a caster or otherwise an unarmed melee player) whack a mob once or twice in melee. After that, go in with a full rage bar you got from previous combat and spam Demo Roar a few times. You'll see that the mob will switch over to you eventually.

Yaelle · 07/03/08, 5:19 AM

Originally Posted by kalbear

Why not have two ferals for the tanks on Brutallus and have the warriors sitting out? That will maximize the damage you can do, Brutallus doesn't crush, and if you go for more avoidance you should be pretty good in that setup.

I don't mean to offend here, but that is kind of a selfish approach. You need your Warriors during progression, and letting your Prot Warriors skip the boss, who has 3 upgrades in stock, isn't much progress for them.

Never the less, I also always favored the mixed tanking setup (for reasons given before). We also run 2 Feral Druids and 2 Protection Warriors.... one of each sit out on Brutallus.

Tierlac · 07/03/08, 6:41 AM

khere are some test's I did while in a group w/ a 68 shadow priest that was kind enough to assist me.

Test 1. I had a person go up and just be in the vecinity of a unfriendly mob while targeting the mob. I demo roared, pulled aggro.
Test 2. I had the person pull aggro by hitting the mob, while targeting the mob I had to roar about 3 times to pull aggro.
Test 3. Untargetting mob, I had the person go up pull aggro w/o damageing mob, roared pull aggro.
Test 4. While untargeting the mob I had the person pull aggro and hit the mob once. I could not pull aggro after 10 roars.
Test 5. I had the person go up and body pull and applied MotW and pulled aggro.

So in conclusion this has the aggro generation of any buff/debuff in game and really can not be considered Moderate threat while targeting the mob. Non targeting the mob while damage was applied it was impossible to pull aggro from said friend w/ demo roar so this would almost be listed in bettween non-aggro to neglegable aggro.

Any input on this would be ineresting

*edit* for purposes of being asked for numbers
Test number 2 had 43 damage to the target by my friend, which I asked to only hit once.

Test number 4 had 96.1 damage after being hit once

Farstrider · 07/03/08, 6:58 AM

That doesn't really prove anything unless you can put some numbers in there - how much actual threat was applied to the mobs before you tried to pull aggro. It's interesting, but not without any numbers.

Boelies · 07/03/08, 9:38 AM

To kalbear and inaiwae.

Why use resilience on your gear in the first place? My gear isn't all that good and i'm crit immune because of my defense rating. I don't have defense enchants, only rings and necks and stuff like that. The only reason i have S3 gloves is that i haven't had the chance to loot T6 ones yet.

Resilience might compensate if you lack defense rating i have to agree to that, but i think it shouldn't be too hard to reach the low amount of 415.

In addition you can replace the 30 resil elixir with a fortitude one, or just go for the good old flasks.

iamrelevart · 07/03/08, 9:44 AM

This is such a big thread, and probably has already been covered, but what is the soft cap for both hit and expertise? By soft cap, I mean the point where yellow attacks never miss and never get dodged. Thanks in advance!

stauros · 07/03/08, 9:51 AM

Originally Posted by Boelies

To kalbear and inaiwae.

Why use resilience on your gear in the first place? My gear isn't all that good and i'm crit immune because of my defense rating. I don't have defense enchants, only rings and necks and stuff like that. The only reason i have S3 gloves is that i haven't had the chance to loot T6 ones yet.

Resilience might compensate if you lack defense rating i have to agree to that, but i think it shouldn't be too hard to reach the low amount of 415.

In addition you can replace the 30 resil elixir with a fortitude one, or just go for the good old flasks.

You're also not armor capped because you're using Band of the Abyssal Lord and Scarab of Displacement. In addition, you're still using Barbed Choker of Discipline. Those are all items that could be upgraded by spending badges or gold. When you're gearing with the direct upgrades that drop for druids, defense becomes scarce.

• Caniki · 07/03/08, 9:51 AM

Originally Posted by Yaelle

I don't mean to offend here, but that is kind of a selfish approach. You need your Warriors during progression, and letting your Prot Warriors skip the boss, who has 3 upgrades in stock, isn't much progress for them.

Feral have two drops on Brutallus, both of which are shared with the Prot warriors. So to me, we earn a spot. Sadly, I wasn't available for our guild's first kill (this week), and we did it with two Prot warriors. It'll be smoother when I'm there next week

Inaiwae · 07/03/08, 9:57 AM

@ Boelies:

You are using non-optimal gear. You should replace your abyssal lord ring with stalwart protector ring, and the defense trinket with badge for tenacity (my preferred one). By this you will lose 69 defense. Even elixir of ironskin wont help you.

The reason why i use resilience - it is because it allows me to setup the best tanking set with the items i have available.

edit: too slow

Rannasha · 07/03/08, 9:58 AM

Originally Posted by iamrelevart

This is such a big thread, and probably has already been covered, but what is the soft cap for both hit and expertise? By soft cap, I mean the point where yellow attacks never miss and never get dodged. Thanks in advance!

Against boss-level mobs:

142 (hit-rating)
89 (expertise-rating)

iamrelevart · 07/03/08, 10:13 AM

Originally Posted by Rannasha

Against boss-level mobs:

142 (hit-rating)
89 (expertise-rating)

I'm fairly certain that those numbers are for white damage, not yellow. Based on the two different types of attack tables (one roll vs two rolls),

From the rogue forum:

Originally Posted by RandomRogue1234

There are two hit caps for rogues: the soft cap occurs when you can no longer miss a special attack, while the hard cap occurs when you can no longer miss a white attack. Against a raid boss, your base chance to miss a special attack is 9%, and your base chance to miss a white attack is 28%.

I'm assuming there is some differential like this for druids, unless all that differential comes from dual-wielding instead of using one weapon, such as we do. If there is a difference, I am interested in knowing what it takes to never miss specials, since that screws up the cycle, costs energy, throws off timing, etc. Thanks again (and I wrote those two numbers down for reference later!)

Rannasha · 07/03/08, 10:19 AM

The difference between soft and hard caps for Rogues are due to the higher miss-chance on auto-attacks while dual-wielding.

While it's true that special attacks follow a 2-roll system and auto-attacks are on a 1-roll system, this only affects things like the effect of missed attacks on your effective crit-chance.

Against boss-level mob there is a fixed 9% chance to miss with special attacks and auto-attacks made while wielding only one weapon (or in our case: when attacking with your paws). Boss-mobs have a 28% chance to be missed (IIRC) with auto-attacks while dual-wielding.

Similarly, the base dodge chance is 5%. For every level there is between the attacker and the target, this value is changed by 0.2% (increased if the defender is higher level, decreased if the attacker is higher level). A boss-mob counts as being level 73, so 5.6% dodge-chance.

Multiply these percentages by the amount of rating needed to obtain 1% "anti-avoidance" (which is 15.77) and you get the final values.

Boelies · 07/03/08, 10:40 AM

Originally Posted by Inaiwae

@ Boelies:

You are using non-optimal gear. You should replace your abyssal lord ring with stalwart protector ring, and the defense trinket with badge for tenacity (my preferred one). By this you will lose 69 defense. Even elixir of ironskin wont help you.

The reason why i use resilience - it is because it allows me to setup the best tanking set with the items i have available.

edit: too slow

1) Badge of Tenacity is too expensive on my server
2) With neck from RoS and defense on chest i can lose the trinket which gives me an oppurtunity to get something better.
3) Getting pvp gear is not available to everyone and the 30 resil from the pot won't do the trick if you lose too much defense

But your right about my gear issues

iamrelevart · 07/03/08, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by Rannasha

The difference between soft and hard caps for Rogues are due to the higher miss-chance on auto-attacks while dual-wielding.

While it's true that special attacks follow a 2-roll system and auto-attacks are on a 1-roll system, this only affects things like the effect of missed attacks on your effective crit-chance.

Against boss-level mob there is a fixed 9% chance to miss with special attacks and auto-attacks made while wielding only one weapon (or in our case: when attacking with your paws). Boss-mobs have a 28% chance to be missed (IIRC) with auto-attacks while dual-wielding.

Similarly, the base dodge chance is 5%. For every level there is between the attacker and the target, this value is changed by 0.2% (increased if the defender is higher level, decreased if the attacker is higher level). A boss-mob counts as being level 73, so 5.6% dodge-chance.

Multiply these percentages by the amount of rating needed to obtain 1% "anti-avoidance" (which is 15.77) and you get the final values.

Ok, so using my peanut sized brain with too little sleep, the net result of this is that we reach our hard and soft cap at the same time? That's kind of a bummer really, because there's a lot more value (imo) from not missing or being dodged on specials versus white damage. Lucky rogues... Thank you for the detail, that was most informative. Now back to trying to cheat the system!