Feral Megathread - Page 176

• sadris · 07/07/08, 12:07 PM

Does anyone have a recent (< 1mo) Brutallus WWS parse of a feral druid who is only DPSing? I am trying to compare enh shaman to them; it seems that everyone is using a moonkin: Wow Web Stats

angi · 07/07/08, 12:21 PM

Originally Posted by sadris

Does anyone have a recent (< 1mo) Brutallus WWS parse of a feral druid who is only DPSing? I am trying to compare enh shaman to them; it seems that everyone is using a moonkin: Wow Web Stats

Wow Web Stats

group support for our hunters and warlocks was poor so don`t blame them :P.

• Vykromond · 07/07/08, 1:30 PM

Can you please translate some of the German on the "Gains, Buffs, and Debuffs" page?

angi · 07/07/08, 1:49 PM

Originally Posted by Vykromond

Can you please translate some of the German on the "Gains, Buffs, and Debuffs" page?

2 Heroism in Meleegroup, 11xDrums, 23 Powershifts and 20 T4 Proccs.

Eilanelena · 07/07/08, 1:56 PM

Hi everybody !

Maybe it has already been asked, but I have to say it becomes truely difficult to find something on these boards (partly because I am French I suppose).

So, I have two questions for the druid comunity :
1 - Are there some of you who decided to keep Necklace of the Deep and gem it with 2 +15sta gems ? Or do you go for the Shatered Sun Offensive neck or Brooch of Deftness ? (I'm asking in your "classic" tanking setup, I can figure that both of these necks are superior to the blue one considering threat & when hit chance is crucial). I'm asking this myself because I am in a Hyjal level guild (even if now they decided to focus on Vashj so they can say "SSC clean") and do not have an easy access to epic gems, so I'm in trouble if I trust Rawr and use the lvl65 blue or first buy Brooch of Deftness (I use the SSO Aldor neck ATM).

2 - Are there some of you who know about a macro/add-on you can spam to bring you in the desired form and never out of it ? I'm looking for something like that and don't seem to be lucky to find an up to date way to do that.

Thank you in advance for your answers !

Actually, there is a last question that comes to my mind : where is the best place to train to get double bonus rips ? I'm tanking most of the time, pretty good at DPS when I'm given a chance but I want to become even better however I have not much room on where to practice it efficiently (whe are not running Gruul or Mag anymore, Kara I'm mostly MT, ZA OT).

Hoofhearted · 07/07/08, 3:16 PM

I've never seen a tank neck drop.
On fights where threat doesn't matter much I use Necklace of the Deep with 2 stamina gems. On fights where I feel aggro does matter, I use the shattered sun neck.
On M'uru I use Necklace of the Deep with 2 agi gems.

/cast [nostance] Dire Bear Form

You can try double rips on a tauren healer in a duel. For me it feels the bigger hit box the easier it is.

• Vykromond · 07/07/08, 3:51 PM

4379: Thanks.

4380: Astrylian did extensive work on "bugged Mangles" (what you call "double bonus rips") and found that actively trying to force them does not lead to a significant DPS increase. You can find it with a forum search.

EDIT: I did some of your work for you. http://elitistjerks.com/751273-post3783.html is the beginning of a 4 post discussion relevant to your question. Astrylian has an earlier post, in this thread, covering the work he did to arrive at his conclusion. I don't feel like doing any more searching but if you're curious it shouldn't be too hard to find.

Hoofhearted · 07/07/08, 4:14 PM

Originally Posted by Vykromond

Astrylian did extensive work on "bugged Mangles" (what you call "double bonus rips") and found that actively trying to force them does not lead to a significant DPS increase. You can find it with a forum search.

Don't know what you mean by extensive research. It's just simple maths on the method he mentions, which involves getting 1 rip without mangle and 1 doublerip. That would net you around 3% total increase in rip damage i think.
This is not the only method though, and the method Eilanelena probably means is working and has no big drawback.

Relative · 07/07/08, 4:53 PM

You "can" do double rips every time, but its difficult to pull off due to debuff "travel time"

Let me explain:

You have a mangle up on the target.
You have 4 or 5 combo points.

You cast rip.
Mangle expires.
Rip lands.

You cast mangle.
Mangle lands.
Rip's first tick.

The BIG important part of that is that you cast Rip while the mangle debuff is still on the target BUT the mangle debuff falls off BEFORE the rip debuff is applied.

Yes its hard to do.
No, you wont get it every time
Yes, latency/hitbox size will affect debuff travel time.

I would think (and no, I have not done math on this) that waiting a couple seconds to wait for mangle to be about to expire to pull off a double rip is worth more DPS then refreshing rip as soon as it falls off (assuming you have the cp to do so)

cana · 07/07/08, 5:11 PM

GER - ENG

Buffs gained

Ingrimm = Furor
Kampfrausch = 2 T4 Setbonus (for energy gains)

Humanoide aufspüren = Track Humanoids (23)
Freizaubern = Clearcast / OOC (11)
Trommeln der Schlacht = Drums of Battle (11)
Blühendes Leben = Lifebloom (9)
Verachtung = [Shard of Contempt] Procc (7)
Katzengestalt = Cat Form (5)
Rudelführer = Leader of the Pack (5)
Ruf des Berserkers = [Berserker's Call] activated (3)
Entfesselte Wut = Unleashed Rage (2)
Nachwachsen = Regrowth (2)
Heldentum = Bloodlust/Heroism (2)
Verjüngung = Rejuvenation (1)
Anregen = Innervate (1)

DeBuffs gained
Brand = Burn

Abilities
Schreddern = Shred
Zerfetzen = Rip
Zerfleischen (Katze) = Mangle (Cat)
Wilder Biss = Ferocious Bite

------------

27 Powershifts, 20 2T4-Proccs, 11 OOC-Proccs, 11 Drums of Battle, 7 [Shard of Contempt] Proccs, 3 times [Berserker's Call] Proccs, 2 Bloodlust/Heroism, 1 Innervate

Eilanelena · 07/07/08, 5:49 PM

Originally Posted by Relative

You "can" do double rips every time, but its difficult to pull off due to debuff "travel time"

Let me explain:

You have a mangle up on the target.
You have 4 or 5 combo points.

You cast rip.
Mangle expires.
Rip lands.

You cast mangle.
Mangle lands.
Rip's first tick.

The BIG important part of that is that you cast Rip while the mangle debuff is still on the target BUT the mangle debuff falls off BEFORE the rip debuff is applied.

Yes its hard to do.
No, you wont get it every time
Yes, latency/hitbox size will affect debuff travel time.

I would think (and no, I have not done math on this) that waiting a couple seconds to wait for mangle to be about to expire to pull off a double rip is worth more DPS then refreshing rip as soon as it falls off (assuming you have the cp to do so)

I was thinking about a DPS cycle along these lines, the problem to me seems to have enough energy not to powershift to achieve to get all these abilities in time (it is the main reason I fail to achieve it I think)

On another subject : No shifting safeguard ? (I fail at reading) Or other bears using Necklace of the Deep over other necklaces ?

• Vykromond · 07/07/08, 5:51 PM

Shifting safeguard is /cast [nostance] as someone else already mentioned, that will take you into form from caster form but not out of form.

Relative · 07/07/08, 6:38 PM

Originally Posted by Eilanelena

I was thinking about a DPS cycle along these lines, the problem to me seems to have enough energy not to powershift to achieve to get all these abilities in time (it is the main reason I fail to achieve it I think)

2T4? I know I "sometimes" let this cycle drop, but between omen of clarity, 2T4 and crits I don't had to many issues. The RNG "can" always mess you up, but it doesnt feel like it happens to often.

If your having issues with energy, there was a powershift macro posted a while back which is... AMAZING. I can't stress how much this pushed my DPS to another level. Granted... now I have to often choose between a mana pot an a haste pot, but I'd rather have to make that choice then do 100-150 less dps.

Edit: looking at your gear, I'm even more confused, you look to be geared at least as well as I am (if not better) and on eagle last night I had 0 cycles where I didnt have 4-5 cp and >50 energy with rip about to run out. I am hit capped, but have 0 expertise. I "suppose" you could say I got lucky with 2T4 procs due to 50% drum uptime, my DST and the 2 haste pots I drank. Oh... and the heroism. Still, in the tank group on Anetheron last kill, I had a very similar experiance. (no drums, no heroism)

Mageara · 07/08/08, 12:29 AM

Originally Posted by sadris

Does anyone have a recent (< 1mo) Brutallus WWS parse of a feral druid who is only DPSing? I am trying to compare enh shaman to them; it seems that everyone is using a moonkin: Wow Web Stats

Here's a link to the last Brutallus kill I was present at: WWS

Saucy and Cooler are both Enhancement Shaman, both slightly ahead of me. My group make up was me, rogue, ret pally, enhance, and a warrior (fury I think). We had a survival hunter in raid as well. Ferals druids aren't quite up to par with enhancement shaman, but it looks like it's getting closer.

Would love to see more feral druid WWS' posted for more comparision.

Carlos · 07/08/08, 6:22 AM

Originally Posted by angi

2 Heroism in Meleegroup, 11xDrums, 23 Powershifts and 20 T4 Proccs.

I think you had 27 Powershifts and only the Track Humanoids Aura is not as fast as the macro.

27 Ingrimm indicating the powershifts.

I got the same in our Teron Firstkill WWS and was a little irritated by it.

Wow Web Stats

Mihir · 07/08/08, 7:22 AM

Originally Posted by Eilanelena

Actually, there is a last question that comes to my mind : where is the best place to train to get double bonus rips ? I'm tanking most of the time, pretty good at DPS when I'm given a chance but I want to become even better however I have not much room on where to practice it efficiently (whe are not running Gruul or Mag anymore, Kara I'm mostly MT, ZA OT).

Practiced it on KJ when we were still learning the basics of the fight

For your progress lvl, ZA eagle boss would be a good spot i guess, assuming youre not MTing it. Or Malacrass/Zul'jin

Eilanelena · 07/08/08, 7:28 AM

Originally Posted by Relative

Edit: looking at your gear, I'm even more confused, you look to be geared at least as well as I am (if not better) and on eagle last night I had 0 cycles where I didnt have 4-5 cp and >50 energy with rip about to run out. I am hit capped, but have 0 expertise. I "suppose" you could say I got lucky with 2T4 procs due to 50% drum uptime, my DST and the 2 haste pots I drank. Oh... and the heroism. Still, in the tank group on Anetheron last kill, I had a very similar experiance. (no drums, no heroism)

It's more a practice problem than anything else, if often find myself at less than 50 energy because I'm spamming shred. I wondered if the guys in Shadowmoon valley are a good spot or if it isn't possible to build CP on them as they are insensible.
Ok thanks I'll try on those.

• Astrylian · 07/08/08, 1:08 PM

Sorry, been away on vacation this weekend, just got back to checking this thread...

Re: Double Rips, there's a new way to do it, as discussed maybe a dozen pages back or so... Rip within half a sec of your Mangle expiring, then reapply mangle, and it'll get double bonus. The only downside to this is extending your cycle duration by 1sec. It's also hard to pull off (I personally only average something like 30-40% of the time I can get it... I know Odas has gotten really good at it), but if you can get more than like 20% of them to work like this, it's worth it in the long run. At least, I think it was about 20% was the breakpoint, don't recall. I can redo that math and post it here if anyone cares, but it should be relatively easy to get at least 30% success rate with this, which is surely a dps boost.

• Falk · 07/08/08, 3:29 PM

There's quite a big crock of shit on this page (no offense) and the double rip has been explained and tested no less than three times in the thread.

There are three possible Mangle debuffs you can get in the game. Two are intended, one is erroneous and probably an artifact of an early build. Note the debuff names below:

1) Mangle (Bear) - This debuff applies when you cast Mangle in bear form. It increases rip TICK size by 30%. If it falls off, subsequent rip ticks go back to normal. If you apply it while rip is in the target, subsequent ticks get the 30% bonus.

2) Mangle (Cat) - Applied while in cat form. Functionally identical to Mangle (Bear). Mangle will refresh across types (i.e. cat will refresh Mangle (Bear) and vice versa)

3) Mangle - This is the erroneous one. You can get this to apply if you mangle right as a mangle debuff is wearing off. The game tries to refresh the debuff and fails because it expires, and erroneously applies this debuff instead. This debuff increases rip APPLICATION size by 30%. If you apply a rip on a normal Mangle (Cat/Bear) and then subsequently get this erroneous debuff, your damage bonus will disappear. If you apply a rip while this erroneous debuff is up, your bonus damage will persist even after the Mangle debuff wears off (since the application itself was boosted, not the ticks.

Double-rips are nothing but these two multipliers stacking. Apply when Mangle is up, Mangle wears off, hit Mangle again for Mangle (Cat). Your rip now has 30% increase during application, multiplied again by another 30% for each tick.

You can test this extensively if you want. Every single time you get a mega-rip, it's because it was applied when Mangle was up. Not Mangle (Cat/Bear).

I'd like to add that Mangle has to be the shoddiest coded spell in the entire game, counting the hilarious shadowstep teleport bug. First, we had the amazing mangle pull bug (Mangle killing blow a target and immediately target another mob - that mob gains the mangle debuff and aggros regardless of range/LOS). Then we had Mangle (Bear) being on a 1sec GCD. Lastly (and this hasn't been fixed) we have this erroneous mangle debuff still being used on live servers.

• Astrylian · 07/08/08, 3:32 PM

Falk, re-read. There's a second way, which is worth doing, and doesn't rely on the "Mangle" debuff.

• Falk · 07/08/08, 3:34 PM

Yes, and I'll state that it has never ever worked in my testing. If someone can provide some fraps or screenshots about this, I'll put my sock in my mouth. Up to this point every time it's brought up it's fallen back to the previous explanation one way or another.

Relative · 07/08/08, 4:28 PM

Originally Posted by Relative

You "can" do double rips every time, but its difficult to pull off due to debuff "travel time"
Yes its hard to do.
No, you wont get it every time
Yes, latency/hitbox size will affect debuff travel time.

No one ever said it was easy to pull off. I know that on my wired internet connection(40-80ms), I have a MUCH harder time doing this. Like 1 in 20.

On wireless (180-200ms) I can pull it off around 40% of the time, cause I suck at timing

The first time Astrylian showed me this (on the ogres north of Shatt) I had a pretty hard time following what he was talking about, and had a impossible time replicating it. It took me well over an hour of a practice with a pocket tank/healer killing the Molten Giants in MC to be able to even pull it off once every 20 cycles.

Hit box is also going to affect it. I find this far easier to pull off on Kazrogal then on Anetheron, for instance. Maybe its the slant of the hill, maybe its because onyxia deep breaths more this patch, maybe its hit boxes. I'm going with the last explanation.

Maybe Astrylain can shed some light into how a normal Mangle(Cat) could result in a rip keeping the 30%, as well as gaining 30% from the second Mangle(Cat)? I'm really not qualified to attempt an explanation on that.

• Astrylian · 07/08/08, 5:06 PM

It's pretty simple... Technically, this is how the Mangle (Cat) debuff works (bear too):

On application of Mangle (Cat), boost all the bleeds already on the target by 30%.
On fade of Mangle (Cat), reduce all the bleeds already on the target by ~23% (multiply by 1/1.3, to drop them back to original strength).
On cast of bleeds, check for Mangle (any) being on the target, and boost the strength of the cast bleed by 30%.
The other key piece that allows double rips in this manner is that Rip has a 'travel time'. Think of it like how when a Mage casts a Fireball, there's a bit of time between when the fireball finishes casting, and when it applys the damage/debuff, aka the 'travel time' that the fireball is flying through the air. Well, Rip has a travel time too. It's quite short, and there's no visible projectile, but it's there. You can observe the travel time by comparing when you lose the energy for casting Rip, and when the debuff is applied. Depending on lag (and I think distance to the target), this travel time may be between .1 and .5sec.

So, cast Rip while Mangle (any) is on the target, but has less than [travel time] remaining on it. On the cast, it detects that there's a Mangle on the target, so boosts the Rip damage by 30%. Then comes the tricky part: the Mangle has to wear off before the Rip is actually applied. The Mangle wears off, and reduces the power of all current bleeds (aka, none, or just bleeds from other people) to normal power. Then, the Rip that has been traveling, and is boosted, hits the target, and you get a boosted Rip, without a Mangle on the target. Then just Mangle again immediately after, which boosts all bleeds on the target (double-boosting your Rip).

There's no down-side to trying to do this, like there is with the old way, other than your cycle time needing to be 1sec longer. And sometimes, when you manage to time it right such that Mangle wears off after the Rip cast, but before the Rip application, you get a double boosted Rip.

sal · 07/08/08, 5:43 PM

Originally Posted by Darkkazul

For KJ its pretty much just full DPS gear (if you choose to use a feral tank). We haven't kill KJ yet but when we started attempts I was tanking in full dps gear doing near 2k TPS (Not Omen TPS). You don't need avoidance because its fully magical dmg BUT if you get chosen to help tank adds then you need your normal tank gear (the adds hit hard both magical and physical).

EDIT: I should add that we switched from a druid tank to a warlock tank. Also one thing to note about a melee dps/tanking on KJ. The top threat (or near it) in melee range gets knocked back every ~5 seconds, far enough to get outside of melee range. It gets to be really annoying when/if you're trying to tank/dps.

How much burst is there in this damage? The knockback seems to be timed similar to charge affects so I assume the dps difference between tanking and top dps melee is a similar compromise. How does your threat compare to the rest of this raid for the boss? Do you believe a feral can maintain threat once established as a bear in full dps gear and go cat, survive, and offer the increased healing of nurturing instincts in cat form for healers? I am assuming similar dps, less healing required at the cost of survivability. DPS from tanking and knockbackcat would be similar, no benefit to using a warlock.

Just a thought.

Coxxos · 07/08/08, 8:38 PM

I have a question on Muru. We have now spent a couple of nights on it and it is starting to look encouraging. I have followed some of the advice in this thread in terms of gear and I generally reach 75-80% miss+dodge so that it is easy to keep me up. I am in a melee group with rogue, warrior, retri pally and en. shammy. Melee burn the mage down immediately (we have no mage on our side so no use of the debuff) and I don't even need to tank it, I just build threat on the two zerkers. Now here is the problem: quite often one of the zerkers run away at the start. I tend to start with a maul+swipe to get them all on me but swipe only on one of the zerker doesn't seem to always be enough and a crit heal for example can pull the mob instantly. As you know they run fast and it generally ends up with a healer or caster dead. It is obviously much more of a problem on the entrance side since on the KJ side I have much more time to see them coming and to counter any aggro issue. So basically I am just wondering if anyone is experiencing this problem? What is the best opener to ensure the adds are on me? Is there a macro that would allow me to taunt one zerker and immediately switch to the other one with a mangle so I don't have to rely on swipe?