Feral Megathread - Page 177

Relative · 07/08/08, 9:05 PM

If your fast, you could set one as your focus and do this:

/castsequence [target=focus, harm, exists] [] reset=1.5 Mangle (Bear)(), Swipe, Swipe, Swipe
/startattack

Have the other one as your target and just spam maul. I would assume (from comments about this fight) that rage really isnt an issue. Have your dps start on your focus; once you have a bit of threat from mauls built up, you can target your focus and maul on it as well.

Another option is to aoe tank using mouseover macros. It takes a bit of getting used to, but its VERY worth it IMO.

#showtooltip Mangle (Bear)(Rank 3)
/castsequence [target=mouseover, harm, exists] [] reset=1.5 Mangle (Bear)(), Lacerate, Lacerate, Lacerate
/startattack

With the above macro it doesnt matter what my target is, thats just the mob I'm casting auto attack on/maul. All my instant specials (mangle, lacerate, FF) use a mousever macro so I simply hover my mouse over the mob I want to land the threat on and hit the hotkey. The key part of this macro is:

/cast [target=mousover, harm, exists]

The extra [] after that specifies that if I dont have a mouseover (or its a friendly target) it will do the hotkey action to my current target, not my mouseover.

• Falk · 07/09/08, 5:05 AM

@Astrylian

I spent a bit of time after the servers came up trying to reproduce this, couldn't over the course of one hour of trying. (300-450 ping for reference) Looking back at the fraps, I'm pretty sure in more than one occurance the events happened as you described, yet I didn't get any super-rips. If it was near anyone else I'd still say the entire thing is a crock of shit, but I trust you, and I can imagine it happening the way you described. I'll put my sock in my mouth, I guess. My apologies for coming off as an asshole.

Regarding M'uru adds. I've never had healers pull aggro off anything as long as a single swipe lands. Even at 300-ish damage, you're talking a crit heal of 8k being divided by 8 mobs (Sentinel/M'uru/6 adds) or more if spawns are up, divided by 2 (heal threat), modified by Salv. This isn't taking tank threat bonus or range modifier into account.

stayclean · 07/09/08, 5:27 AM

Originally Posted by Coxxos

I have a question on Muru. We have now spent a couple of nights on it and it is starting to look encouraging. I have followed some of the advice in this thread in terms of gear and I generally reach 75-80% miss+dodge so that it is easy to keep me up. I am in a melee group with rogue, warrior, retri pally and en. shammy. Melee burn the mage down immediately (we have no mage on our side so no use of the debuff) and I don't even need to tank it, I just build threat on the two zerkers. Now here is the problem: quite often one of the zerkers run away at the start. I tend to start with a maul+swipe to get them all on me but swipe only on one of the zerker doesn't seem to always be enough and a crit heal for example can pull the mob instantly. As you know they run fast and it generally ends up with a healer or caster dead. It is obviously much more of a problem on the entrance side since on the KJ side I have much more time to see them coming and to counter any aggro issue. So basically I am just wondering if anyone is experiencing this problem? What is the best opener to ensure the adds are on me? Is there a macro that would allow me to taunt one zerker and immediately switch to the other one with a mangle so I don't have to rely on swipe?

We make sure there's a hunter aoe frost trap down at each entrance as the mobs run through. Then, as long as no one else is standing on top of the mobs as they come in (which gives them a chance to get proximity aggro), I can usually get 2 swipes on the 3 mobs to make them aggro on to me.

iamrelevart · 07/09/08, 11:10 AM

Originally Posted by Falk

@Astrylian

I spent a bit of time after the servers came up trying to reproduce this, couldn't over the course of one hour of trying. (300-450 ping for reference) Looking back at the fraps, I'm pretty sure in more than one occurance the events happened as you described, yet I didn't get any super-rips. If it was near anyone else I'd still say the entire thing is a crock of shit, but I trust you, and I can imagine it happening the way you described. I'll put my sock in my mouth, I guess. My apologies for coming off as an asshole.

I spent some time last night setting up super-rpis on the elite stone guys in Netherstorm. I just did two mangles and then raked to build CP. Then I waited until mangle was about to fall off. I managed to get 4 super-rips out of 10 tries. I was also using a real-time dps grapher, and it was interesting to see the difference between the super-rip and the regular rip as far as dps goes. If I were consistently able to reproduce super-rips 40% of the time, I could see it being useful...

Yes, I know that's not much data. No I didn't save my logs. Yes, I will be trying/practicing again.

• sadris · 07/09/08, 11:29 AM

You can also get a no-effect Mangle when trying to do a double-Rip. Doesn't seem worth it to me.

• Astrylian · 07/09/08, 12:21 PM

Originally Posted by sadris

You can also get a no-effect Mangle when trying to do a double-Rip. Doesn't seem worth it to me.

Please, re-read. That's not true, using the new double-rip method. There is no chance for an unmangled Rip with this method.

coredumperror · 07/09/08, 4:53 PM

Hibernicus - WWS This was my guild's best attempt of last week (we didn't quite manage to kill him, due in part to several of our top DPS still being on vacation), but it shows pretty clearly that it's possible to double-mangle rips. I'm only a couple pieces of gear behind "best in slot" for a feral who hasn't yet killed Felmyst (you can see my DPS set from my sig link).

You can see that while I average nearly 800 dmg per rip tick, I got at least one tick of 1065. My group comp that night was Feral, Resto Shaman, BM, BM, Surv. Ever since I got 2t4 + 4t6 finally, my double-mangled rips hare pretty consistently over 1k per tick, while my regular mangled rips hover in the high 700s. That's consistent with an extra 30% being added onto the double-mangled ones.

On another note: Can you guys take a look at that WWS and help me figure out why my DPS was so horrible? I'm usually in the mid to high 1600s on Brutallus, but I was consistently pulling 1400-1500 DPS that night.

Duilliath · 07/09/08, 7:51 PM

Originally Posted by coredumperror

On another note: Can you guys take a look at that WWS and help me figure out why my DPS was so horrible? I'm usually in the mid to high 1600s on Brutallus, but I was consistently pulling 1400-1500 DPS that night.

Quick glance, without going into it deeply (not 100% awake anymore after tonight's Raid and it's nearing 1 AM over here),
6.6% missed mangles - might've missed a few rip ticks.
Only 6 drums of battle on a 6 minute fight, even with 3 drums of war it's still not a lot.
96% DPS time (97 or even 98% on other nights ?)
149 Rip ticks is around 5 minutes of Rip uptime if I'm not mistaken, out of 6 minutes total fight.

coredumperror · 07/09/08, 10:58 PM

Wow I hadn't done the math on that. 149 rip ticks is way too few... how the hell is that happening? I'm not perfect, and I make a few cycle mistakes form time to time. But losing 1/6 rip uptime is way way more than I can imagine losing.

Mijae · 07/10/08, 12:19 AM

If you're actively trying for super-rips your cycle time is going to end up being 13-14 seconds. Using 14 second cycles over 6 minutes is 154 ticks (13s ~ 166). That's part of the trade-off you make.

coredumperror · 07/10/08, 12:25 AM

The main reason I started doing super-rip cycles was that I kept getting bugged mangles since I'd often mangle again just as my old mangle was running out. I guess I just need to be a lot more careful about my timing.

Melthar · 07/10/08, 1:51 AM

Falk:
In regards to the double-rip. Under the old theory of Mangle(), Mangle (Bear) and Mangle (Cat) it wasn't possible to get two double-mangled rips in a row as the Mangle() would have worn off by then. Trying to do two would result in the second rip getting no mangle buff whatsoever. However with timing being spot with things acting the way Astrylian described two double mangle rips in a row is possible. As an example:

Wow Web Stats

If you look at 20:57'45.140 you'll see the start of 12 rip ticks for 895-896 in a row (vs my normal 6xx) indicating two rips in a row have the double mangle.

angi · 07/10/08, 2:34 AM

Originally Posted by coredumperror

Hibernicus - WWS This was my guild's best attempt of last week (we didn't quite manage to kill him, due in part to several of our top DPS still being on vacation), but it shows pretty clearly that it's possible to double-mangle rips. I'm only a couple pieces of gear behind "best in slot" for a feral who hasn't yet killed Felmyst (you can see my DPS set from my sig link).

You can see that while I average nearly 800 dmg per rip tick, I got at least one tick of 1065. My group comp that night was Feral, Resto Shaman, BM, BM, Surv. Ever since I got 2t4 + 4t6 finally, my double-mangled rips hare pretty consistently over 1k per tick, while my regular mangled rips hover in the high 700s. That's consistent with an extra 30% being added onto the double-mangled ones.

On another note: Can you guys take a look at that WWS and help me figure out why my DPS was so horrible? I'm usually in the mid to high 1600s on Brutallus, but I was consistently pulling 1400-1500 DPS that night.

You had no heroism, your group is not that great for your personal dps (try to get melee shaman+warrior) and you can powershift more aggressivly.

Maturin · 07/10/08, 10:57 AM

Played with the super-rip last night for the first time, here's my impressions:

Using ElkBuffBars to display debuff countdowns, fighting ogres above Shattrath, about 130 ping.
First, hit the mob with Mangle, then stop attacking, just watch the debuff countdown. As soon as it hits 0, Rip. Once I figured out how to do it, I was getting maybe 20-30% success. For 30 min or so I was failing every time, because I misunderstood about the rip "travel time."

At first I thought I was trying to get the rip debuff to apply while Mangle was still up, but have Mangle fade before the first rip tick - this failed every time. What I had to do was think about replacing the Mangle debuff with the Rip tick - imagine Indiana Jones doing the Idol/Bag swap in Raiders. What you should see (at least how it worked for me) is the mangle debuff literally turn into the Rip debuff. Not fade then get replaced, and not have both up at once. I think the mechanics are exactly as Astrylian explained a few pages back.

Now my question - what if we had a debuff countdown bar (like Elk or Class timers or some such) that accounted for latency? Imagine a Quartz debuff bar or something like that. If we can figure out the exact time you need to apply it, we could have a good visual representation that accounted for your particular latency. Most of the time that I missed the super-rip, I knew it before the first tick even happened - it didn't "feel" like I nailed it. With a good visual debuff bar to help my aim, I feel like we could get > 50% on these.

• Falk · 07/10/08, 2:35 PM

Originally Posted by Melthar

If you look at 20:57'45.140 you'll see the start of 12 rip ticks for 895-896 in a row (vs my normal 6xx) indicating two rips in a row have the double mangle.

So how are you able to do it and not me? Can't be an artifact of ping in this case. :X

cana · 07/10/08, 3:47 PM

It's just a matter of the proper timing. I'm using DoTimer for my debuffs and made the Rip bar a little bit longer than usual for an easier timing. I couldn't try it in raids yet, but in the Blasted Lands I can reach success rates of 80%-90% over some minutes if I stay focused.

Mijae · 07/10/08, 4:33 PM

I mostly tank so have only been able to try this a few times and have had limited success also.

Wow Web Stats - Note the 18 ticks in a row for 1K+, looks like I got one later in the fight also. I must have had inconsistent group buffs (or deaths) for how widely the ticks fluctuated (3 bm hunter & resto shm). I use DoTimer for my abilities also and was trying to time it so that I use Rip as close as possible to zero time.

I did want to verify though... what exactly were the conditions to getting an non-mangled Rip again? Is it doing the same thing except using Mangle again as it's expiring instead of Rip? If so, then this method should not risk it at all correct?

• Astrylian · 07/10/08, 4:59 PM

Originally Posted by Mijae

I did want to verify though... what exactly were the conditions to getting an non-mangled Rip again? Is it doing the same thing except using Mangle again as it's expiring instead of Rip? If so, then this method should not risk it at all correct?

Correct. There is no *risk* in doing this. The only downside is the 1sec longer cycle time.

Here's the math for it being a DPS gain: You normally get 6 rip ticks every 12 sec, or 0.5 ticks per second.
With this way, you get 6 rip ticks per 13sec, or 0.462 ticks per second.
In order for it to be worth using, those ticks need to be 8.23% stronger (0.5/0.462) on average. When successful, they will be 30% stronger. So you need to be successful 27.42% of the time (8.23/30) in order for it to be equal DPS.

Short version: If you can nail the timing 28% of the time or more, it'll be a DPS boost.

Mijae · 07/10/08, 7:42 PM

If I'm understading correctly, say you were using 12 second cycles and applied Mangle at 1.2 for the first Rip and 13.1 for the second Rip (~11.9 seconds between Mangles), this causes the problem Mangles?

It actually seems that a 13 second cycle is more safe than a 12 second cycle anyway then. That is, you could accidently end up with the half double / half non-mangled Rips with near perfect 12s cycles. So, in order to safely avoid that case you would need to extend your cycle by like half a second anyway.

The "safe" double-mangle sequence looks like:

0.0 Apply Rip
1.0 Apply Mangle
...
12.0 Rip fades
12.9 Apply Rip
13.0 Mangle fades
13.9 Apply Mangle

Thessaly · 07/10/08, 7:59 PM

Originally Posted by Hoofhearted

Wow Web Stats Our first night on M'uru.
I am logged out in my M'uru gear. Most of it is from badges/pvp/boe and pretty easy to get. The bracers are Guardian's Leather Bracers with a 10 agi gem but they aren't showing on armory atm.
I tweaked the setup for a while and disregarding some direct upgrades like [Leggings of the Immortal Beast] and [Stanchion of Primal Instinct], I think it's the best setup possible.
If you want to use [Wildfury Greatstaff], it ends up being 17 armor short of the cap without GoA, and 1 defense over crit immunity with 12def on bracers.

This might be one wws too many, but all the posts here helped me alot.

I've been getting my gear sorted out for Mu'ru, and I was wondering what sort of health you end up with in this setup. I suffer from being the wrong faction, so I end up with about 17k health in the gear you're using, which seems a bit low. What are you (and other Door tanks) aiming for in terms of health?

• Astrylian · 07/10/08, 8:24 PM

Originally Posted by Mijae

It actually seems that a 13 second cycle is more safe than a 12 second cycle anyway then. That is, you could accidently end up with the half double / half non-mangled Rips with near perfect 12s cycles. So, in order to safely avoid that case you would need to extend your cycle by like half a second anyway.

Yes and no. If you just always hit Mangle immediately after the GCD from Rip is up, then yes, doing it the new way is indeed safer, and I got unboosted rips a significant portion of the time before I started using the new way, for that very reason.

However, there is a way to manage it so the 12sec cycle is safe as well: just wait half a sec sec extra after the Rip's GCD before you Mangle, every other cycle. That lines it up so there's alternately .5sec of gap or .5sec of overlap between Mangles, so there's no chance of bugged Mangles, but all Rip ticks are still Mangled.

Still, I strongly suggest 13sec cycles for all cats.

Lyssa · 07/10/08, 9:46 PM

Originally Posted by Thessaly

I've been getting my gear sorted out for Mu'ru, and I was wondering what sort of health you end up with in this setup. I suffer from being the wrong faction, so I end up with about 17k health in the gear you're using, which seems a bit low. What are you (and other Door tanks) aiming for in terms of health?

I just had my first night of M'uru and I was wondering a bit along the same lines. What sort of armor other ferals @ M'uru are aiming for. Trying to optimize my gear, I'm still a bit above the cap vs lvl 71s due to the fact I'm using Wildfury, one armor ring & BoT; a bit above 34k. I think I could rearrange for quite a bit more dodge by sacrificing a little bit of health and quite a chunk of armor; would 30k still be enough? I don't have the luxury of imp Demo Shout & Thunderclap on my side so I'm a bit worried of losing too much armor.

• Falk · 07/10/08, 10:59 PM

Capped, 70+%, 20k hp is one way to go about it (That's how I started out, upgraded to about 75% currently)

Or non-capped (not below 28k-ish), 80-85+%, 17k+hp is another way to go about it.

This is average avoidance shown on WWS, counting Idol of Terror and Commendation.

Ultimately though those are guidelines and it comes down to what your side can handle. It's not 'too low' until you start dying consistently, healers couldn't do anything each time, and there's no way DPS could have helped (like kicking that one last fireball, kidney shot on Zerker at the right time, etc)

Darkkazul · 07/11/08, 1:54 AM

The exact gear setup I personally use on M'uru door tanking:

T6 helm, 15 stam gem, 18 stam meta, Def/Dodge enchant
Brooch of Deftness
Demontooth shoulderpads, 5/7 agi/stam 10 agi, Def/dodge aldor enchant
Sillk's Cloak, 12 agi enchant
T6 chest, 3x10 agi, 15 defense enchant
T6 bracers, 10 agi, 12 stam enchant
Stanchion of Primal Instinct, 35 agi enchant
Idol of Terror
T6 Gloves, 10 agi, 15 agi enchant
T6 Belt, 10 agi
T6 Pants, 15 stam, 40/12 stam/agi enchant
T6 boots, 10 agi, 12 agi enchant
Band of abyssal Lord
Exalted Karazhan Ring
Commendation of Kael'thas
Shadowmoon Insignia

Major Agility, Elixir of Major Defense, Ironshield Potion every cd.

This gear puts me at 30500 armor (33000 armor with ironshield), 20.5k HP, with 62% dodge fully buffed (I believe). With procs and what not I sit at 72% dodge (from Idol of Terror), 93 hit rating, and 41 expertise rating (not really needed but it comes with the hit). Avoidance on WWS from last couple of kills are anywhere from 76% down to 72%.

On my side of tanking we use 3 hunters and an elemental shaman to dps down my adds. We also poly 1 add even with me tanking. In this way I end up taking less damage than the warrior tank on the other side (we also poly on that side). Our kill order is Beserker, Beserker, and then Mage. I only pop ironshields when we have the mage left (even with the macro)

Hoofhearted · 07/11/08, 5:31 AM

Originally Posted by Thessaly

I've been getting my gear sorted out for Mu'ru, and I was wondering what sort of health you end up with in this setup. I suffer from being the wrong faction, so I end up with about 17k health in the gear you're using, which seems a bit low. What are you (and other Door tanks) aiming for in terms of health?

You can just load my gear into rawr. I have 18379 hp, 30616 armor, and 80.6% dodge+miss without [Idol of Terror] or [Badge of Tenacity] active. As a Night Elf you would have 17464 health and 82.5% dodge+miss.
[Delicate Eternium Ring] is silly. You can just aswell use [Band of the Eternal Champion] for alot more stamina and threat and almost the same avoidance.
Like Falk said, the limit is when you start risking your life alot. Armor is not a huge concern.