Gem and enchant your T6 for tanking. Maxing out stam is *not* required. It's viable, and so is agi. If you've already got agi, that's just fine. You just need 'enough' health. 'Enough' depends on the boss and your healers. Personally, 'enough' is 20k for Kalec, 21k for Brut, 22k for Felmyst, 20k for Twins. It could be alot more for you, or even less. Check Rawr for individual item comparisons, but you'll almost certainly want all T6, except for perhaps badge pants and maybe chest.
For Cat, you definitely want to keep 2T4, until you've been farming KJ for a while. Try to pick up second copies (if not thirds) of the T6 tokens, to gem/enchant for cat, but bear should be your priority, because that's our primary/only role in Sunwell. Despite being gemmed/enchanted for bear, it may still be best to use some of your existing T6 pieces for cat, for 2T6, and maybe even 4T6 once you get bracers. Otherwise, the offset rogue stuff will be best usually. Use Rawr to figure that all out.
So I'm fairly sure I've filled everything out correctly and all, but Rawr shows Idol of the White Stag to be about twice as good as Idol of Terror. According to everyone and their grandparents, Idol of Terror is the thing to go for. Rawr only rates both on threat though, which for White Stag is fine but it doesn't seem to rate Idol of Terror on avoidance which the proc gives. Is it just not modelled?
Correct, the avoidance from the Idol of Terror proc isn't modelled. Considering that it's the only viable (wouldn't count on the resilience from the PvP Idols for crit immunity, you wouldn't want to leave yourself open to crits on an unlucky streak of unlanded Mangles) defensively minded Idol out there, the choice is pretty much a no brainer.
Correct, the avoidance from the Idol of Terror proc isn't modelled. Considering that it's the only viable (wouldn't count on the resilience from the PvP Idols for crit immunity, you wouldn't want to leave yourself open to crits on an unlucky streak of unlanded Mangles) defensively minded Idol out there, the choice is pretty much a no brainer.
Looking it over it really seems like that, but it just didn't make any sense to me that it wasn't modelled - should be fairly straight forward? At least it'd give a more accurate result, ie. recommending idol of terror. Alright, thanks for reassuring me.
Indeed it is, but are people really going to go there and look when looking for what's the better? Besides, terror could be +1 gazillion agi for 1 second and never proc which would make it rather useless to go look at the buff - what's interesting is avg uptime and all that. So sure, you can go look at it under temporary buffs to see how much it's worth but that's just silly in my opinion.
I always thought it was a no-brainer that Idol of Terror is the best for tanking.
Rawr is set up to compare relative stats of different pieces of gear, why would you want to use it to compare between idols that have vastly different procs? Comparing between Idol of the White Stag and Idol of terror is comparing apples to oranges.
I always thought it was a no-brainer that Idol of Terror is the best for tanking.
Rawr is set up to compare relative stats of different pieces of gear, why would you want to use it to compare between idols that have vastly different procs? Comparing between Idol of the White Stag and Idol of terror is comparing apples to oranges.
Well, isn't that why you have an apples and oranges bar on the comparison tab? (survival, mitigation, threat)
Do you really need a spreadsheet/application to tell you that a very high chance 65 Agility proc on a skill that's used every 6 seconds is better than 94 AP for tanking? 0o
Do you really need a spreadsheet/application to tell you that a very high chance 65 Agility proc on a skill that's used every 6 seconds is better than 94 AP for tanking? 0o
I'm sorry, but I can't find where it says the proc has a "very high chance". The relative value of both trinkets rely entirely upon the proc chance of each idol. They also both work off mangle, so that part is really irrelevant. Of course if you're only interested in mitigation, then yeah - the white stag idol will never do anything about that. However that's besides the point, the original question was to why the avoidance part of idol of terror wasn't modelled in the comparison of idols.
Edit:
Maybe I shold just ask this in a more plain way as it seems some people misunderstand it - Why should the mitigation part of Idol of Terror not be modelled in the comparison tab of Rawr?
If you're posting on EJ, can we safely assume you're willing to put more effort than the average person into researching your class, spec and related items? In this case, is it also plausible to assume that you'd be willing to search on a site like wowhead or wowdb to find info on stuff like this (e.g. Idol of Terror) and not just rely on ingame tooltips? Because if those aren't reasonable assumptions, I apologize.
Originally Posted by Whitemane
Maybe I shold just ask this in a more plain way as it seems some people misunderstand it - Why should the mitigation part of Idol of Terror not be modelled in the comparison tab of Rawr?
That seems like a question that should be in the rawr thread .. or in a PM to Astrylian.
Indeed, which I did - but then we're moving past Rawr and I doubt Rawr is meant to rely on WoW Head for optimal usage and I wasn't even aware there was a Rawr thread. Astrylian seems to read this thread as well, so no point in cross posting now.
It's a proc. A proc with a very high uptime (~66-75%), but a proc none-the-less. It's also a proc that drastically changes the value of other gear. It's for that reason that we don't apply an averaged-out static value to it. 65agi, 75% of the time is *not* the same as 48.75agi, 100% of the time, since avoidance scales. You'll notice that we maintain that rule for procs throughout all of Rawr; if averaging it out is the same as its exact value, we average it out and put it on the item. If not, we make it a temp buff. (For example, +AP trinkets are averaged out since 1000ap 10% of the time *is* the same as 100ap 100% of the time, DPS-wise.)
We'd like to be able to correctly model it and find the actual uptime, and from there, the actual effect on avoidance it has, on average, and we'll do just that, when we have time. But for now... Come on, everyone knows you use Terror to tank with. It's not worth our time, it's the bear best idol, it's obvious.
1000ap 10% of the time *is* the same as 100ap 100% of the time, DPS-wise
Well, no. 1000ap 10% of the time is more powerful than 100ap 100% of the time if that 10% time segment happens to overlap with a multiplicative effect, e.g. drums (in a non 100% drum uptime scenario), or a Bloodlust.
edit: Not that I expect rawr to attempt modeling at that level, it's a fine tool for what it sets out to do. Just saying.
Well, no. 1000ap 10% of the time is more powerful than 100ap 100% of the time if that 10% time segment happens to overlap with a multiplicative effect, e.g. drums (in a non 100% drum uptime scenario), or a Bloodlust.
That is only true when you can decide on both sides, when it happens. Drums you can decide, Procs you don't. If you have 100% Drum uptime in your group than there is now difference anymore. Drum uptime is configurable.
Okay well, I have a question in regards to Threat Per Second. Currently my guild is progressing threw Black Temple, and we are on Reliquary of Souls at the moment. I am logged out in my threat gear. Currently my rotation is Lacerate 3 times, Mangle, and i keep maul queued constantly. I want to increase my threat. I know that a 4th peice of tier 6 will give me a huge boost in threat but until then, can i gain a good amount by changing my rotation, or gear? If so, please elaborate.
Okay well, I have a question in regards to Threat Per Second. Currently my guild is progressing threw Black Temple, and we are on Reliquary of Souls at the moment. I am logged out in my threat gear. Currently my rotation is Lacerate 3 times, Mangle, and i keep maul queued constantly. I want to increase my threat. I know that a 4th peice of tier 6 will give me a huge boost in threat but until then, can i gain a good amount by changing my rotation, or gear? If so, please elaborate.
Pretty much what the person said above me, gem for agilitiy it will increase your TPS and you shouldn't strave for rage when you are sitting at a high crit rate. Another advice I can give you is to get another T6 helm with use the +12 agi meta gem, it helps for threat.
should i change some of the stam gems with hit + agi or just agi or should i do something else my tps is normally around 1k - 1.2k if i don't miss too much
should i change some of the stam gems with hit + agi or just agi or should i do something else my tps is normally around 1k - 1.2k if i don't miss too much
You can also start interweaving swipes in with your lacerates in your cycle for increased damage and threat. At your gear, you should be able to splice in swipes on every 3rd lacerate or so. So your cycle should be
laceratex2->swipe->mangle.
I'd see if you could use the [Staff of the Forest Lord]. Berserker's Call is really suboptimal no matter how you slice it.
Last edited by kalbear : 07/18/08 at 5:30 PM.
Reason: swipes are not the same as shreds
You can also start interweaving shreds in with your lacerates in your cycle for increased damage and threat. At your gear, you should be able to splice in shreds on every 3rd lacerate or so. So your cycle should be
laceratex2->shred->mangle.
I'd see if you could use the [Staff of the Forest Lord]. Berserker's Call is really suboptimal no matter how you slice it.
I really hope you mean Swipe instead of Shred. I'd love to be able to shred in bear form.
Specifically for Brutallus, it's better to just Swipe spam anyway and ignore Lacerate. This is because you need to rebuild the stack every time you switch back to tanking. Using Lacerate is only good if you can constantly keep the stack ticking at 5.
07/17/08, 10:03 PM
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