• Astrylian

I'm 2nd tank, taunt after the first stomp, if it matters... I end up getting 650-700 most of the time, though I could probably push that up to 750-800. 650 for your first kills seems totally reasonable to me.

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coredumperror

In my tanking set for Brut, in which I go for 20kish HP without Commanding Shout, and then stack agi, I consistently average ~850 DPS. My group comp is 2x BM, 1xSV, 1xResto Sham, Me. I spam Drums of War on CD to not haste-cap the BMs, and they have a careful Drums of Battle Rotation for themselves as well. I get 1 Bloodlust, and we have an arms warrior in the raid. Last time we killed Brut I was wearing 5/8 T6 (still no bracers, but I got Boots off Twins this week), S3 helm, S3 bracers, best-in-slot from BT/Hyjal, and Wildfury. I gem exclusively for Agi besides meta requirements, and I wear BoT and Commendation for my trinkets. I tank second, taunting just after the first Stomp lands.

Considering that you're just starting on Brut, you didn't get a BL, and didn't have a shaman the whole time for str/agi totems, I'd say that 600 DPS isn't bad, but you could do better with practice. Good luck on Brut

 

seminarca

Aye, for early days ~600+ is fine, once you become more familiar with the dynamics of the fight, you'll be changing forms more fluidly in between taunts. One thing I'd advise you to do though is to not be *too* aggressive in DPSing immediately after your partner taunts .. wiping the raid by pulling aggro back is not fun (has happened, 3 crit Shreds in a row and unlucky streak on my Warrior partner = kitty goes splat). I Cower once immediately upon going into Cat Form, and then watch Omen pretty carefully. Powershifting, in a 2 BM, 1 Surv, Resto Shaman group (1 Bloodlust) and Blood Fury on the boss, my best has been ~800 dps. I'm gemmed sort of halfway Stamina/Agility at the moment though, in a bit of a transitionary phase prepping for M'uru.

 

cana

M'uru down, KJ next
I assume you're maintanking KJ and are tanking at least 1 of the Sinister Reflections. Are you going for crit-immunity there?

 

• Falk

Sinister Reflections were 70 the last time I looked. Pretty easy to hit the cap on them. :P And no one cares when KJ crits for 500.

 

Coldturkey

deleted

 

unitsinc

Are those from the inscription profession?

 

wuffles

There's a whole thread for WoTLK stuff with regards to ferals, can we please keep this one focused on TBC issues?

In regards to DPSing in cat while the other tank has Brut -- are you guys moving over slightly to be able to shred (and moving back into position before taunting) or just standing in your tanking position and spamming mangle? With our positioning, being able to shred would cause the tree standing near me to shift slightly as well to avoid spreading burn. He doesn't seem to mind it, since it doesn't affect him rolling blooms - I'm just curious as to what others are doing.

 

ganwb79

We got our first kill of Brutallus just yesterday night. A big thank you to all who answered my questions in the previous few pages.

For the kill attempt yesterday I was at ~700 dps. I was 2nd tank. My group setup was 1 resto shaman putting GoA and Strength of Earth (and heroism), me and 2 BM hunters. We had 3 drums in the group but I messed up my turn to drum because I was looking at slash and stomp timers too much, so effectively 2 drum rotations. I did not do the normal feral dps rotation because we have another feral dpsing in the raid so i relied on him to keep up FF and mangle. Just pure shred from me while dpsing.


It seems that during our learning attempts if I was facing him to the side in such a way that I cannot use shred when I am not tanking, we had problems with people eating slashes from the other group. When I started to gauge my tanking spot by the first point at which I could shred (and the rest of my team adjusting according to my pos), things start falling in place and such problems did not occur any more.

 

Inaiwae

We are positioned so that the non-tanking tank is behind the boss. So i can shred without moving.

 

seminarca

I'm the first tank, and our 2nd tank and his group adjust once the MD is complete and Brutallus is planted. It really depends where exactly the 2nd tank is positioned as to whether you'll need to adjust to be able to shred, simply widening the angle a bit means you wouldn't need to move around once you're taunted off of. Early on, we had some positioning issues, where after taunting off me, the angle wouldn't be enough for me to be able to Shred without adjusting, but once I alerted my 2nd tank to the issue, he adjusted slightly and I haven't had an issue since. It's still close enough so that melee doesn't have parry issues, but wide enough that I don't have issues.

If your raid is accustomed to current positioning, I'd just make the tree adjust as needed =p

 

Lyssa

Now, this I don't quite understand. Having to mangle as feral dps effectively lowers your dps - so why werent you, as a tank, responsible for keeping mangle up instead?

Re: Brut DPS, I've been as high as 800 as well, but only when I'm able to shred. Most of the time I can't do that due to positioning and having to crowd healers behind me to get into position. And the hassling with moving and making that healer move as well seems to not be worth the extra 50 dps.

 

ganwb79

At the moment since we are still getting used to the encounter I tend to concentrate more on watching out for transitions than keeping up debuffs, counting slashes, taking note of stomps etc etc. The other druid already has his normal 12 second cycle locked down so we decided it was best that he manage our debuffs.

This may change when the fight transits to farm status.

 

Centarion

There is no reason to force the cat-feral to keep mangle up, whenever a feraltank is used.
If you´re too busy getting a good rotation, just reduce your dmg to mangle-spam, it´ll be more effective i think.

 

Boevis

I believe he means that while Brut was on the other tank, he was in cat form and wasn't mangling. I assume (and hope) that he was using mangle while in Bear form. You are correct that the Tanking druid should be the one to keep up mangle, even when not tanking, the Cat should have already removed Mangle from his cycle when there's a Bear tanking.

 

ganwb79

Yes I am doing mangle while tanking. My concern would be whether I can maintain a 100% mangle uptime. Before the 3rd slash comes around I am drinking ironshields, casting barkskin, going bear form and white attacking to build up some rage, saving my mangle cd until the moment I taunt where I can open with a maul + mangle. During this time, mangle may drop off. Also in my tanking gear I have a smattering of hit and no expertise, I will miss my mangles from time to time.

So the question is which is better, that he rely on me providing the mangle and if I let it drop off due to misses and whatnot he has to mangle himself to keep it up, or he does the usual 12 second cycle which has a 100% mangle uptime.

As we get more comfortable with the fight I'll pay more attention to my mangle uptime.

 

Yaelle

To add to this (I've also played both roles) and from what I could see. Reading our WWS logs usually the Bear tanking had miss rates of about 25% on Mangle, therefore I never assume a 100% up time in addition to whats being said before.

 

blackmatt

I normally tank Brut, but our prot/ret pally didn't show one night so I got to dps, and for the first couple attempts I was relying on the feral tanking to be the mangle-bot. But with all the things going on and the lack of hit/exp on his gear, the mangle uptime was inconsistent at best and horrid at worst, so my dps was much better when I just used a normal dps cycle and kept mangle on myself.


Maybe once the encounter is closer to farm status and your tanks are able to work in more threat gear and get the rotations down pat then you can rely on the tank to mangle for you, but on learning attempts I would recommend the cat keeping it up him/herself.

 

• Astrylian

A) Excel is really restrictive. Don't start with Excel
B) Do the theorycrafting community a favor and don't try to splinter it by making your own version of something that there's already great work on.
C) Offer to help Toskk and Emmerald out instead. The Druid Wiki » ToskksDPSGearMethod

Rawr - A theorycrafting tool for Bears, Cats, Moonkin, Trees, Healadins, DPSWarrs, Retadins, Mages, ProtWarrs, Tankadins, HealingPriests, ShadowPriests, Warlocks, Rogues, EnhShams, Hunters, Elementals, RestoShams, Tank DKs, and DPS DKs!
Download Rawr v2.2.27 <--NEW Nov9th!

Are you an active Rogue / Hunter / Warlock theorycrafter and an experienced C# dev, with some spare time and a desire to help build something great for the WoW community? Send me a PM!

 

Promethius

I think the bear threat/dps model is a bit off in Rawr. Lacerate seems too undervalued in the calculations. 2-1-5 should be an optimal DPS cycle with 100% chance to land mangles and lacerates due to full mangle uptime and never dropping the stack, yet Rawr is returning swipe spam being superior in DPS, even at no armor penetration and without 4t6.

I had put the following information in my guild's forum when 2.4 was about to be released with the added AP scaling to lacerate:

AP = bear attack power
C = crit rate
M = miss rate
D = dodge rate
P = parry rate
Ar = armor mitigation
x = number of lacerate ticks in between lacerates

Swipe(threat) = (84+AP/14)*((1-(M+D+P))(1+1.26C))(1-Ar)*1.15
Lacerate(threat) = 285+0.2*1.3(1-(M+D+P))[(0.01AP+31)((1-(M+D+P))(1+1.26C))(1-Ar)+(0.05AP+155)x]

Most of the ugly looking stuff is just combat table and effects of armor mitigation which Rawr already handles. What I'm wondering is if mangle uptime is being considered for lacerate, if 5% of AP is being applied to each tick for a 5 stack of lacerate, and if the number of ticks are being properly counted. A 1-3-0 gets an average of 2/3 a tick per lacerate, a 1-1-2 gets an average of 2 ticks while a 2-1-5 gets and an average of 4 ticks. Just thinking about it with an affliction lock or spriest mentality of dmg/cast time, a lacerate getting 4 ticks worth of damage for the same gcd as a swipe should be a superior ability to use on that specific gcd.

Even at 100% crit, full hit/expertise, against a 0 armor mob with 4t6, swipe gets 218+0.186*AP for damage. Without even considering mangle yet, 4 ticks of a 5 stack lacerate should be getting 155*4+0.20*AP total damage done. The damage from the initial hit hasn't even been added in yet and both static and scaling values for AP are higher than what swipe receives under the most optimal conditions for swipe. Without 100% crit, a mob with actual armor, and not having 4t6, I really feel that 2-1-5, even if it didn't provide the highest TPS, it should at least be winning in DPS in a max hit/expertise situation, which Rawr isn't being consistent with. Hit and expertise actually favor swipe as well so long as the player is intelligent enough to refresh lacerate when a miss/dodge/parry is seen to maintain the 5 stack since all dps/tps of a swipe is lost when it fails to land, but if lacerate doesn't land and is refreshed the next gcd, the average number of ticks for the previous lacerate is upped by 0.5.

My main concern is that if the damage lacerate is contributing isn't factored in correctly, the TPS it provides will be skewed as well. Even at a Sunwell level of gearing, debuff slot considerations aside, maintaining a 5 stack lacerate with minimal actual lacerates should be competitive with swipe spam for threat and come out 100-150 dps ahead.

 

Blazefire

I average in the low 800s for DPS when tanking Brutalls, and thats with a hunter or two as my only group buffs. Oddly, our first 3 kills were my best showing for DPS by far and lately I feel like I've been doing very poorly.

First kill was 842, then 895, and then I peaked at 905. Since then its been flucuating from mid 700 to mid 800s.

Even more peculiar to me is that Since the first 3 kills, I've included more DPS gear into my tanking set and it doesn't seem to help

 

Maeltne

I'm looking at redoing my UI, and keybinds. I remember seeing some posts regarding which keybinds people use, but can't seem to find it even with search :/

Can someone either point me in the right direction, or supply the keybinds they use? Thanks!

 

Bashui

I did just notice an error, the dot DPS and threat was being added in for the m+swipex3 rotation. That drops the threat down for that rotation down below the mixed rotations.


The values used in the bear threat using your notation:

(92+AP*.077)*((1-(M+D+P))(1+1.26C))(1-Ar)*1.15

TBH i am not sure exactly where I got the 92+.077AP from, I cant seem to find the source. The difference here isn't major, but should probably corrected to the proper value (if necessary).

Lacerate threat is a little bit different, and I have it broken down into 4 parts, (damage and threat for DD and dot).
DD is:
1.3*(31+AP/100)*((1-(M+D+P))(1+1.26C))(1-Ar)*1.15
Threat is:
(285)*((1-(M+D+P)) +DD (you are counting the innate threat on missed attacks, and I am not reducing the threat on DD, just on the dot.)

Dot DPS is (5 stack):
1.3*(155+5*AP/100)/3
Dot TPS is .2*DotDPS


the 215 rotation does have a reduction in the DPS/TPS based on your hit/expertise.
The mangle multiplier also is not a straight 1.3, and is reduced by miss chance.


Can anyone confirm one way or another if the direct damage portion of lacerate gets the reduction in threat like the dot or the correct value for swipe damage?

 

Promethius

Yes, 2-1-5 should still be affected by hit/expertise; my point was that hit/expertise has less of an impact on lacerate than swipe in practical usage assuming the player reacts in time to refresh the stack.

Good catch on the innate threat being added on missed attacks mistake, though it shouldn't affect the DPS.

With regards to the mangle multiplier, I assumed an average of 1.3*(1-(M+D+P)) would be sufficient for napkin math, but looking over the proc mechanics theorycraft section it would be 1.3*12 sec uptime/(6 sec cd + 1/((1-(M+D+P))/6).

 

Bashui

(should probably move this discussion to the Rawr Thread)

Mangle uptime is basically your chance to miss twice in a row (1-(M+D+P)*(M+D+P)) when using it every cooldown.