Live: Talents
Dodge: 45.5%
Crit: 32.33%
Health: 15061
Dodge goes up to 64.15% with both trinkets active (Scarab/Moroes).
In live taking off my belt (24 agility) has the effect of reducing dodge by 1.7%
WotLK: Talents (don't ask, I was mucking around with FB, but it has the important bits for stat comparing)
Dodge: 44.5%
Crit: 32.43%
Health: 15397
Dodge goes up to 60.07% with both trinkets active (Scarab/Moroes).
In WotLK taking off my belt (24 agility) has the effect of reducing dodge by 1.33%.
The armour difference is because of not taking thick hide on Beta. The stat differences other than that are pretty minor. AP has also gone up by around 250 due to the Predatory Strikes talent change, all stats are up slightly (SotF 3%->6%). There'll be a small change fully raid buffed (+-5% or so) but your dodge chance won't change by 30% unless they significantly change the ratings between now and the implementation of the patch. The increase in health and the boost to healing classes throughput (new talents) should be enough to counter the difference I would guess.
Just using those numbers, 24agi = 1.7% dodge on live, 1.33% on beta, that means dodge from agi is 78.235% as much on beta than on live. Hardcoding that into Rawr, I end up with 69.89% dodge in my M'uru gear, compared to 86.51% on live. Add 5% extra base dodge, and you're at 74.89%. Total avoidance is 92.99% on live, would be 81.37% on beta. Taking 7.01% of incoming hits on live compared to 18.63% on beta. That's 2.66 times more damage taken. Admittedly, that's on the very extreme end of things, but that's an extremely high difference in damage taken.
It's not like that on beta at the moment, is that a guarenteed change or is that just wrong?
Aaahhh, ok, I see what I did there. I looked at the talent, which had no cost attached, and just assumed that it was now free.
Then I looked it up in wowhead and I see that there are in fact two different skills, similar Mangle, that each have their own cost.
Feral charge is 5 rage or 10 energy. My bad. How necessary Furor is now that we can charge from cat for is yet to be seen. I tend to find myself switching to Bear form only to charge, and then switching right back. With the ability to charge in cat, Furor still may not be critical.
-In our country, any CBC reporter can dream of becoming head of state.
I'm currently playing TF2 (Engineer is credit to team!), but I'll do some more dodge/agi/defence checks soon so we can work out more exact ratios for each (surprised no-one has actually done it yet to be honest).
The dodge change for tanks will be larger the more agi you have. I am more concerned about the crit change in cat form though. Nearly all our gear is based on Agi and with nearly doubling the amount needed per crit I'd expect a huge change.
Granted Im not at M'uru yet so I don't have a fully kitted out dodge set made. I'm sure if I did it would hit that hard too, as Astrylian posted.
The dodge change for tanks will be larger the more agi you have. I am more concerned about the crit change in cat form though. Nearly all our gear is based on Agi and with nearly doubling the amount needed per crit I'd expect a huge change.
Granted Im not at M'uru yet so I don't have a fully kitted out dodge set made. I'm sure if I did it would hit that hard too, as Astrylian posted.
Kitty has a lot more positive changes, with tigers fury not sucking and KoJ. So it may even come out to be a buff.
Bear on the other hand didn't get any cool new toys for mitigation/avoidance other the SotF change.
No gear: 68 agility with 8.36% dodge caster, 12.36% dodge bear
Gear with just agility and no defence/dodge: 463 agility (+373 from gear, +395 on char screen) with 28.64% dodge caster, 32.64% dodge bear
Gear with just defence rating: 385 defence, +81 rating with 9.80% dodge caster, 13.80% dodge bear
Gear with just dodge rating: +38 rating with 10.39% dodge caster, 14.39% dodge bear. [Tooltip: 38 dodge rating adds 2.01% dodge]
Trinket with dodge rating: +338 rating with 24.24% dodge caster. [Tooltip: 338 dodge rating adds 17.86% Dodge].
From this we can extrapolate the agility, dodge and defence conversions.
Agility: 395 / (28.64 - 8.36) = 19.4773 agility per Dodge %. In actual terms this is 18.375 Agility per Dodge % due to SotF.
Defence: 35 defence from 81 rating gives 2.3 rating per defence, but actual is 2.4 currently (assumed to not change). Dodge gain is 1.44% from 34 defence, or 24.3 defence per dodge% but actual is 25 currently (assumed to not change).
Dodge: 38 / (10.39 - 8.36) = 18.7 rating per dodge%. Going from Tooltip, 19 dodge rating per % approximately.
Dodge from Trinket: 338 / (24.24 - 8.36) = 21.3 rating per dodge %. Going from Tooltip, 18.9 dodge rating per % approximately.
Agility is pretty simple, seems the agi conversion has been increased significantly from about 14.7% to 18.4% or so.
Defence is the same as current.
There's something funny going on with dodge rating. Either the tooltip is out, or the actual rating is out. Either way, one of them is being seriously strange right now, as the rating required per dodge% is the same in the tooltip in each case, but isn't in the actual example. I'm not sure wtf is going on to be quite honest, and I don't really have enough gear with dodge% on solely to test it (just using Moroes trinket at the moment).
In what context? All of those figures are directly off the character sheet (including the tooltips). I didn't know there was a diminishing return on dodge rating (having only ever had 2 or 3 items with it on).
I don't believe there's a diminishing return on dodge rating; I believe there's a diminishing return on all effects that give dodge. The tooltip is probably broken in that respect and does not show what the actual rating to value is as the diminishing returns kick in.
I don't believe there's a diminishing return on dodge rating; I believe there's a diminishing return on all effects that give dodge. The tooltip is probably broken in that respect and does not show what the actual rating to value is as the diminishing returns kick in.
...what? It certainly doesn't work that way in live. Where did you hear about anything like that in beta?
From the WotLK EJ paladin forums here(and continuing in that thread). And my apologies - it only appears to be affecting dodge/parry rating, not defense/agility.
I thought it would be trivial to find out, but i failed, and i will not be able to log in game for some time. I am trying to do some theorycrafting but i miss the base values.
What is the base damage of cat and bear - the "paw weapon"?
That depends on level, spec and race. A naked feral tauren level 70 druid hits for 211-272 in bear and 87-112 in cat, if that helps you at all in what you're doing.
That's with 461 ap in bear and 503 in cat.
I seem to remember someone saying that it was based on the base DPS of a blue level 70 weapon of ilvl 115 (which is the ilvl for all the basic blue items from end bosses in level 70 dungeons). [Sonic Spear] and [Illidari-Bane Claymore] are both examples of ilvl 115 blue two-handed weapons. They're all 93.3 or 93.2 dps. The additional base stats for Taurens/Nelfs of each gender will then add on to that. I'm not certain just how accurate that is, but from the above numbers it would seem about right.
Er. Isn't cat base still 54.5 like it was at level 60? As discussed in the Thread by Sadris that in part lead to the increase in FAP on our weapons back in 2.0.2 or whenever
Er. Isn't cat base still 54.5 like it was at level 60? As discussed in the Thread by Sadris that in part lead to the increase in FAP on our weapons back in 2.0.2 or whenever
Was thinking the same thing (though 55 as my memory apparently is less precise), but figured someone would come along to drop a link.
Haven't heard of it being changed and always thought that it was what the FAP values were based upon.
As I said, I may be wrong - I couldn't remember exactly what it was based on. It may be that it's a level 60 blue weapon (and one-handed at that) that it's based on.
Ninja-non-edit: Aha, it is a level 60 blue weapon I'm thinking of. See DPS values on [Barbarous Blade], [Demonshear] and [Arcanite Champion]. It's actually ilvl 63, which is "end 5 man" boss level for pre-TBC WoW. I just got the era mixed up.
The FAP increase was in 2.3 iirc, unless that was the second buff to it (they definitely changed values then, along with the HotW change).
I did some detailed math, and confirmed Boevis' statement: 54.6 DPS is the raw "paw DPS" before talents and AP.
You can figure this out by taking off all your gear as a 70 tauren feral. You'll see 87-112 dmg in your paperdoll for cat form. Those numbers are in green though, meaning they've been modified by something: Naturalist. You can see your unmodified dmg in the Damage tooltip, which shows 79-102. Take the avg of those numbers, and you get 90.5 DPS (since cat form attacks at 1.0 speed), but that's with AP taken into account. Fortunately, the AP tooltip shows you the DPS that you get form your AP, and that's 35.9 DPS for the 503 AP that you get for being naked in cat form.
Subtract 35.9 DPS from 90.5 and you get the raw paw DPS of 54.6. You get the same number for bear form, too.
As a side note, if you add that to the DPS you gain from the FAP on [Stanchion of Primal Instinct] you get 54.6 + 85.5 = 140.1 DPS. That's about the same DPS as [Shivering Felspine], which makes sense since they're the same ilvl.
Cycle:
0.0: Mangle
.
.
Generate combo points
.
.
11.5: Rip "cast", energy and combo points consumed
12.0: Mangle wears off
12.1: Rip debuff appears on target
12.5: Mangle before first rip tick for double effect
Something to keep in mind is that the last mangle at 12.5 seconds does not need to be there for the phantom rip to take place. So if you were out of energy at 12 seconds, the first tick of the rip will tick as if only 1 mangle were on, and you can apply the "second" mangle any time in the future, or not at all. This method requires that no one else is mangling, because it will make timing very very difficult.
Odas, what timers do you use to see this information? my timers are either off or i'm just too slow (by alot)
Odas, what timers do you use to see this information? my timers are either off or i'm just too slow (by alot)
Basically Rip-bugging just takes practice and patience. The default UI (I think? I've used xperl since forever) shows a cooldown clock on your own debuffs, so you can see when your mangle is very close to falling off. When it's almost gone, rip, and the rip debuff should show up just after the mangle debuff drops. If you got the timing right, your new rip will be ticking for Mangled damage with no Mangle on the target. Add a mangle, and it'll tick for 30% more than Mangled damage.
Odas, what timers do you use to see this information? my timers are either off or i'm just too slow (by alot)
I use Natur EnemyCastBar. The difficulty to get a super rip depends a lot on what mob you're trying it on. The servants in Blasted Lands are not the easiest. I have found that the difficulty is usually correlated to the size of the hitbox, but no always. For example, Rage Winterchill is relatively easy while Anetheron is nearly impossible. All I can say is practice, practice, practice.
Beta 16:
- Significantly improved the performance and accuracy of the Optimizer
- Added support for importing a character from a Character Profiler saved data file
- Added Sapphiron enchants to the default EnchantCache
- Added support for loading characters from the CN Armory
- Fixed a few crashing bugs in the Optimizer
- Fixed a potential crash when running Rawr under Mono on OSX
- Rawr.Bear:
- - Adjusted the Parry cap to 13.75% reflect latest testing
I did some detailed math, and confirmed Boevis' statement: 54.6 DPS is the raw "paw DPS" before talents and AP.
You can figure this out by taking off all your gear as a 70 tauren feral. You'll see 87-112 dmg in your paperdoll for cat form. Those numbers are in green though, meaning they've been modified by something: Naturalist. You can see your unmodified dmg in the Damage tooltip, which shows 79-102. Take the avg of those numbers, and you get 90.5 DPS (since cat form attacks at 1.0 speed), but that's with AP taken into account. Fortunately, the AP tooltip shows you the DPS that you get form your AP, and that's 35.9 DPS for the 503 AP that you get for being naked in cat form.
Subtract 35.9 DPS from 90.5 and you get the raw paw DPS of 54.6. You get the same number for bear form, too.
As a side note, if you add that to the DPS you gain from the FAP on [Stanchion of Primal Instinct] you get 54.6 + 85.5 = 140.1 DPS. That's about the same DPS as [Shivering Felspine], which makes sense since they're the same ilvl.
Isn't a "little" odd that our "wannabe dps", cat form has no inherent % bonus to damage compared to bear? If I do my math correct there is only 2,9 DPS difference between bear and cat base damage.
That is negligible and no wonder that with 2h mechanics and 1 sec attack speed cat form is just badly designed from the base. Cat form badly need a "damage scaler" (like Naturalist) built-in or somewhere deep in feral tree.
And what really intrigue me (and probably even other people) why is the talent that directly give +% damage increase to cat form in Resto tree? In Feral tree there is no talent that directly increases cat damage.
And what is really astounding feat (to cry or laugh) of Blizzard designers that Bear form in WotLK which is meant for Feral tanking will have 2 talents in Resto tree that gives a total of +14% increased (overall) damage with much better damage scaling compared to cat form.
08/26/08, 3:12 PM
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