Ok I have to put this question somewhere. Was looking for a more general thread but since I can't seem to find one, I'll put it here, in my native home ^^
Anyway, today in ZA I've noticed something a bit strange. Both CoW (don't ask me why it was up, we even had 3 healers as it was an alt group so we were taking it nice and easy to grab 3 chests without probs...) and Demoralizing Roar were up at the same time. I first thought it a bug (applied at the same time or something like that), so after it went off, I tried putting it up again, sure enough it went up along with CoW. I called out to our fury warrior to put up Demoralizing Shout, it replaced my Demo Roar as usual, but the CoW was still there next to it.
Am I missing something? Afaik, they don't stack, and just like Demo Roar/Shout overwriting eachother, stronger one staying up, I thought it worked the same with CoW? Does CoW just stay on the side but only one of them is actually doing something? Or did they suddenly change it so you can have both?
The 2 demo's stack with CoW but not with each other. This has been redone as part of wotlk's buff/debuff raidwide system, however. If it's a melee heavy group, the warlock was better off putting up CoR though. For a caster heavy group then CoE - theres almost never a case for CoW currently.
They never actually stacked, at least not in the last year or more, they just show up together. And for WotLK CoW is equal to Thunderclap and the other tanks' -attack speed talents.
The 2 demo's stack with CoW but not with each other. This has been redone as part of wotlk's buff/debuff raidwide system, however. If it's a melee heavy group, the warlock was better off putting up CoR though. For a caster heavy group then CoE - theres almost never a case for CoW currently.
In a 10 man, no, as I said, why it was up was a mystery to me, but I was too lazy to poke the warlock about it as it was an alt group. However, if they do indeed stack, having both up on something big and mean like Supremus or RoS P1 to reduce damage might be a good idea, so I'd really want to know
Given that 3.0 is nearly upon us, has anyone put any serious thought into the ideal MT or OT talents and gear sets for finishing up TBC raiding? I've been looking thorugh gear lists, but haven't found anything substantially better than the stuff we're currently using (all tier pieces, BOT and Commendation, Kara and BOJ rings, BOJ cloak, brutallus or ROS neck etc). I'd be interested to hear if anyone has found anything interesting. Have any numbers been crunched for the proper enchants for our weapons, now that they can proc? I'm trying to decide between Mongoose, Executioner or just keeping the old 35 AGI enchants.
Given that 3.0 is nearly upon us, has anyone put any serious thought into the ideal MT or OT talents and gear sets for finishing up TBC raiding? I've been looking thorugh gear lists, but haven't found anything substantially better than the stuff we're currently using (all tier pieces, BOT and Commendation, Kara and BOJ rings, BOJ cloak, brutallus or ROS neck etc). I'd be interested to hear if anyone has found anything interesting. Have any numbers been crunched for the proper enchants for our weapons, now that they can proc? I'm trying to decide between Mongoose, Executioner or just keeping the old 35 AGI enchants.
They're reducing boss damage and health by a significant percent. You won't need to change gear, and you can probably tank half the t5 bosses in blues.
Add to that that sunwell radiance will also be disappearing, and I don't think any boss fights save Kael, Vashj, Archi, possibly Illidan, Felmyst and KJ will be particularly difficult. And even then, it'll only be because the mechanics of the fight have nothing to do with gear/damage and more to do with coordination.
For me, I'll be going with a 61/0 build. Furor isn't useful any more, and I want to play with the KotJ and brutal impact changes a bit. After that I'll go to a 50/11 build for leveling.
One thing that still worries me about the 3.0 change is, even with the reduced mob/boss HP, and the removal of Sunwell Radiance, the M'uru adds will still hit just as hard, just as often (they don't get Sunwell Radience in the first place). With the agi->dodge nerf, and the armor nerf... I'm afraid that the adds will rape me. Is tehre something I'm missing that would make this bearable?
Barkskin the initial burst of the mobs and hope that the hp nerf is enough for your dps to obliterate them. I'm assuming currently you kill the humanoids within 45-50 sec. With the hp nerf, you'd expect them to be killed within 32-35 sec. The 12 sec of barkskin and another 5 sec bought with a bash on a flurried berserker should buy quite a bit of time to get 1.5-2 adds down. Relative uptime of avoidance trinkets is increased too with faster kill speeds. And at least you'll have a last stand to fall back on if things are looking ugly. Also, if you didn't have a dps warrior using thunderclap for you before, infected wounds (really wish it would apply to swipe considering thunderclap and pestilence hit infinite mobs) can reduce incoming dmg by a non trivial amount.
One thing that still worries me about the 3.0 change is, even with the reduced mob/boss HP, and the removal of Sunwell Radiance, the M'uru adds will still hit just as hard, just as often (they don't get Sunwell Radience in the first place). With the agi->dodge nerf, and the armor nerf... I'm afraid that the adds will rape me. Is tehre something I'm missing that would make this bearable?
They've also said that the mobs will mostly do less melee damage than they did before.
Clearly we don't know how much that'll be, but chances are you'll be able to survive. If not, pop an ironshield pot instead. With that you should be at the level cap for M'uru adds for armor.
1) Considering they're 71 and not 73/??, you'll come out higher in terms of mitigation with Protector of the Pack and switching back to an armor staff (Hi Wildfury!)
2) Their melee strength is lower on top of 1)
3) You can get Infected Wounds up.
4) Your DPS can probably zerg one down with a combination of the HP nerf, better tank threat, overall higher melee DPS, and higher tank DPS, reducing the critical period of having two berserkers up. Not to mention that the periods of slack between each wave means your healers can regen mana
Armor will be made up by Protector of the Pack (and remember, it also means we actually benefit from Inspiration/Ancestral Fortitude) and you get 6% dodge from Natural Reaction. I think it will balance itself out, but ofc I don't know.
A few questions, apologies if they've been answered already. Does anyone know if Genesis will work for bleeds? Or is it just badly worded and will work on spells only? I've stumbled across some info Rake will now be a decent attack and worthy of inclusion into the rotation so with Rip and Rake going, 5% is pretty nice.
Also, has anyone done the math with Ferocious Bite vs Rip with the new Rend and Tear 50% crit bonus + Feral Agression (considering cats and bears will be separate in builds, there's points to spare for FA in a cat build)?
A few questions, apologies if they've been answered already. Does anyone know if Genesis will work for bleeds? Or is it just badly worded and will work on spells only? I've stumbled across some info Rake will now be a decent attack and worthy of inclusion into the rotation so with Rip and Rake going, 5% is pretty nice.
5% of bleed damage for 5 points, where a typical damage talent will give you 1% or more total damage increase.
The last analysis I saw coming out of Toskk's calculator would lead me to the conclusion that I shouldn't drop points in Genesis until I run out of other DPS talents to put points in.
Also, has anyone done the math with Ferocious Bite vs Rip with the new Rend and Tear 50% crit bonus + Feral Agression (considering cats and bears will be separate in builds, there's points to spare for FA in a cat build)?
Tangedyn, Toskk, and probably many others have looked at this. Ferocious Bite is not your go-to finisher, but last I heard it can be competitive. Your stats (and set bonuses, ofc) will decide.
5% of bleed damage for 5 points, where a typical damage talent will give you 1% or more total damage increase.
The last analysis I saw coming out of Toskk's calculator would lead me to the conclusion that I shouldn't drop points in Genesis until I run out of other DPS talents to put points in.
The analysis is still the same but Toskk has stated that genesis does not affect rake or rip.
Welcome to Rawr 2.0.0. This brand new version of Rawr is designed for use with WoW 3.0,
for characters up to level 70. You'll find many new features at the core level of Rawr,
and many in some of the models. Some important things to note:
•We're not done. Many of the models haven't been updated yet for WoW 3.0
•We're going to be updating Rawr quite often for a while. To help you stay
updated with the latest changes, Rawr will now check for new available updates,
notify you if there's a newer version, and offer to open Rawr's website for you.
Here's a quick rundown of the status of each model:
•Rawr.Base: Still need to implement buffs for Glyphs, and fix bugs with many of the new features.
•Rawr.Bear: Threat calculations not done. Otherwise, mostly complete.
•Rawr.Cat: Not updated for 3.0.
•Rawr.DPSWarr: Not updated for 3.0.
•Rawr.Healadin: Mostly complete.
•Rawr.HolyPriest: Mostly complete.
•Rawr.Hunter: Partially updated for 3.0.
•Rawr.Mage: Mostly complete.
•Rawr.Moonkin: Partially updated for 3.0.
•Rawr.ProtWarr: Partially updated for 3.0.
•Rawr.RestoSham: Not updated for 3.0.
•Rawr.Retribution: Mostly complete.
•Rawr.Rogue: Not updated for 3.0.
•Rawr.Tankadin: Mostly complete.
•Rawr.Tree: Not updated for 3.0.
•Rawr.Warlock: Not updated for 3.0.
As you can see, we still have alot of work ahead of us, but we're actively working on it.
If you are an experienced C# dev, a knowledgable theorycrafter, and would like to help out,
especially with the models which we haven't begun updating for 3.0, please contact me at cnervig@hotmail.com. Thanks, and look forward to frequent updates!
Since the other thread is mostly theorycraft about the expansion, can we move the Level 70 3.0.0 stuff here. While it's fun to read about my imminent 5k DPS, it's hard to sort through what I'll be doing in 2 months to find what I should be doing tomorrow.
Please correct me if I'm wrong about any of this.
-Cat and Bear are different specs now, though you can still do both roles no matter how you spec
-Powershifting is dead
-70 Catform: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (?? KotJ vs Imp Mangle for people with and without 2t6, OOC vs Berserk, Primal Precision worth it for druids that lack expertise ??)
-70 Bearform: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (Naturalist is not worth losing Berserk?)
- Tiger's Fury and Rake go from being worthless to "keep them up" abilities, no more feeling bad about fat fingering rake!
Lacking SR, what kind of rotation are we using at 70?
-Keep Rake up
-Keep Mangle up (not needed with a Trauma Arms Warrior?)
-TF every cooldown if energy < 40
-Use FB if at 5 CPs and Rip will not expire before 100 energy (with glyph of rip making that 16 sec this means it's likely to be a 5/5 rotation with Rip down for ~8 seconds)
-Lacerate? still bad
True. Hybridity lives, however! With the changes to Furor, you don't lose very much dps by shifting out and healing/resurrecting/vating/dancing/bandaging for 6 or 8 seconds. Together with NI and ImpLotP, a kitty can do rather a lot of healing and still perform decently in any fight that tests healer mana (which will especially be an issue until all the healers have updated their gear to have regen stats).
True. Hybridity lives, however! With the changes to Furor, you don't lose very much dps by shifting out and healing/resurrecting/vating/dancing/bandaging for 6 or 8 seconds. Together with NI and ImpLotP, a kitty can do rather a lot of healing and still perform decently in any fight that tests healer mana (which will especially be an issue until all the healers have updated their gear to have regen stats).
I doubt that you'll do more healing than raid-wide iLotP will do for you.
I doubt that you'll do more healing than raid-wide iLotP will do for you.
Doubt all you like, Think iLotP will save more lives too? I don't think iLotP is really a very skilled healer, he's constantly healing the wrong people. And he never seems to heal healers or casters!
My point was that an intelligent feral with the right talents can serve as a significant fraction of a raid-healer, and raid-healing isn't about throughput.
Also, keep in mind that 6 seconds spent out of form is only 3 seconds of iLotP lost, because of the internal cooldown (the average beneficiary of iLotP has 3-4s left before the next proc, so if you step out for 6s and back in, they only lost three seconds of it)
Since the other thread is mostly theorycraft about the expansion, can we move the Level 70 3.0.0 stuff here. While it's fun to read about my imminent 5k DPS, it's hard to sort through what I'll be doing in 2 months to find what I should be doing tomorrow.
That's interesting -- is 0/61/0 what most 'pure' tanking bears (probably sunwell level, not on farm) are going to spec at 70?
That is vs. something like a 0/51/10 spec w/ Naturalist.
As for the other points, I am almost certain that Primal Precision will be needed unless you are fairly deep into Sunwell (or at least have access to the T6 boots, Brut Neck & Twins cloak) because before those items it's pretty slim pickings.
That's interesting -- is 0/61/0 what most 'pure' tanking bears (probably sunwell level, not on farm) are going to spec at 70?
That is vs. something like a 0/51/10 spec w/ Naturalist.
I'm currently planning on doing a 61/0 spec, primarily to experiment with new abilities. As things settle out I'll be going for 51/10 or 50/11 depending on how much I like berserk. While not having naturalist means less threat and damage, I'm looking forward to experimenting with the utility abilities more.
For Sunwell-level bears that are serious about progression I would imagine 51/10 would be ideal; they would not need to take any specific utility abilities (other classes have this better covered) and they would be doing the maximum amount of snap threat and damage, which is important for the fights that a bear currently tanks (M'uru adds, KJ) while keeping the highest amount of mitigation (Brut).
Until bears get more expertise on their gear primal precision will remain one of the best threat stats, point for talent point, that they can take.
09/27/08, 9:39 PM
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