Fantastic post. Great summary, and very useful. A few suggestions below.
I think it would be valuable to indicate which pieces of t4 are the most valuable to keep for the 2pc t4 bonus, since it is one of the most common questions people will have. Apparently it's helm and shoulders preferrably, then I'm not sure.
Re: Raven Goddess I know it's obvious but maybe add something about the fact that you have to be in a full melee group for it to be valuable. Since we don't get WF procs, I often see that the melee group in a 25-man raid is 2x dps warriors + 2x rogues + enh shaman. And the druids are in another group with a couple other melee characters, maybe tanks. In which case the benefit of the Raven Goddess goes way down. And maybe add something about idols for bears, with Raven Goddess being situational, and Brutality and Wild being quite good with a preference for brutality especially in infinite rage fights. In particular remind everybody that Ursoc is crap.
Re: trinkets, I thought the Darkmoon: Crusade was also quite comparable to some of the trinkets you quote (i.e. somewhere around 115-120 AEP). Maybe also add something about the 2 main variants of trinkets: user-triggered, and RNG-triggered - and how druids seem to have split opinions on this issue, with RNG-triggered trinkets often looking better on paper, but some druids preferring to have the control of when the on use effect is triggered as to not lose any on use uptime. Also in the summary maybe just say to check the list above, because some high-ish trinkets are not that good, e.g. Living Root.
In the summary, for feral weapon skill I would emphasise the sweet spot at > 19.5 rating (where you get exactly +5 weapon skill) which gives the best value for money (3% hit and some -dodge).
Maybe rephrasing the WF part in the summary to make it clearer, I would start with "WF doesn't proc in cat form, but wouldn't be overpowered..."
Finally maybe a bit of a newbish reminder, but re: enchants it might be worth reminding people that weapon "on hit" enchants don't work in forms, and that armor enchants/kits are not multiplied by bear form.
Similar to the Cat form dps cycle, could you add a Bear form threat cycle? From what I understand from my guildies, it's:
-In a low rage situation: Mangle, 3x Lacerate, repeat
-In a high rage situation: Queue a Maul whenever possible, then interrupt this Maul with Mangle or Lacerate depending on cooldown, then requeue Maul.
Mauls are "On Next Hit". Mangle and Lacerate are instant and don't ever come in the way of Maul (or vice versa).
Highest single target threat cycle is
Mangle, Lacerate (x3). Use excess rage to queue Mauls every single time.
Feral Faerie Fire might seem nice, but costs you a global cooldown. Similarly, Demo Roar seems nice but costs you a global cooldown and a Warrior's Shout will override it (Druid: -240 AP untalented, -336 talented; Warrior: -300 AP untalented, -450 talented). You might need these two in normal 5man runs, but it's unlikely you'll be using them on a raid Boss fight.
A question about trinkets. You do not list [Ashtongue Talisman of Equilibrium]. I always believed this to be one of the better Cat Form DPS trinkets available. Am I mistaken, or did you overlook this particular item?
I've been updating stuff in between doing work. Most of the points brought up should be sorted now. I won't list all the changes here (check the changelog in the last post for details).
Dukes - from running the Enhance Shaman thread, my advice to you is that you should include all relevant mathematical formula anywhere that you say "this is the best choice" or "the value of this is X," because sooner or later you're going to be flooded with people saying you're wrong, or asking for the formulas.
For some facts there are simple formulas, for some there are very complicated ones. But for many of the facts or opinion in this thread there are no formulas as they were obtained by numerical or empirical means.
Demo Roar seems nice but costs you a global cooldown and a Warrior's Shout will override it (Druid: -240 AP untalented, -336 talented; Warrior: -300 AP untalented, -450 talented).
I want to see your citing of the evidence here. I have 3/5 improved demo roar, and it overwrites a warrior's shout (and a warrior can't overwrite mine). But if your values are correct, 3/5 of the talent would be .6 * 96 + 240 = 297.6, still less than a warrior's standard shout.
I wouldn't be surprised if there's a trigger that says that if you have improved, it will always overwrite, while if you don't then it won't, regardless of what the actual values for the shouts are. Kind of stupid, but I wouldn't put it past them.
Obviously if you're in a group with 2 hunters, a shadowpriest and a resto shaman, it's value decreases massively and you'd be better off using everbloom.
Idol of the Raven Goddess may decrease in value, but things become complicated when you consider the fact that hunters have various abilities that trigger from crits, on top of the straight dps gains from them. BM hunter pets trigger a 3% damage buff for the whole party (and a 30% haste buff for themselves) when they crit, and LotP is one of the few ways that a hunter can boost pet crit rates. Survival hunters trigger expose weakness (which boosts physical dps for the entire raid) from crits, and regain mana when their special attacks crit.
Again, this is not to say I disagree with the conclusion, as my math fu is far too weak to evaluate it. But crit nevertheless can have damage boosting effects that one might not anticipate at first.
We defenately need a new top item list for each slot with the HotW change now.
Pretty much the only thing that changed is that Thallassian Wildercloak is slightly better than Razor-Scale Battlecloak. I made a 2.3 Toplist in the Feral Druid DPS Thread.
In terms of Bear tanking, does it matter if the mob is bleed immune or not when it comes to spending your rage? (Assuming sufficient rage, maul queued up, Mangle on cooldown) Or is it still Lacerate > Swipe until swipe > 225 damage? (And since lacerate is mostly static, it doesn't matter if the count is 0/5 or 5/5?) Or more simply: How do I rage dump?
I want to see your citing of the evidence here. I have 3/5 improved demo roar, and it overwrites a warrior's shout (and a warrior can't overwrite mine). But if your values are correct, 3/5 of the talent would be .6 * 96 + 240 = 297.6, still less than a warrior's standard shout.
Got the values from Thottbot - just checked in game and Demo Roar rank 6 is listed as 248 AP, not 240. That'd make enough of a difference to get over the 300 mark. Asked a Warrior friend, their shout is listed as 300 indeed (unimproved).
Your 3/5 value would put you at 124% of 248 = 307.5
Originally Posted by Fringe_Worthy
In terms of Bear tanking, does it matter if the mob is bleed immune or not when it comes to spending your rage? (Assuming sufficient rage, maul queued up, Mangle on cooldown) Or is it still Lacerate > Swipe until swipe > 225 damage? (And since lacerate is mostly static, it doesn't matter if the count is 0/5 or 5/5?) Or more simply: How do I rage dump?
It makes no difference since the hotfix.
The initial damage done by Lacerate affects Bleed Immunes (and can even crit). The dot part of Lacerate can largely be ignored when it comes to threat generation.
Pretty much the only thing that changed is that Thallassian Wildercloak is slightly better than Razor-Scale Battlecloak. I made a 2.3 Toplist in the Feral Druid DPS Thread.
That's all that changed at the "top" level where you can socket everything for DPS. There are a lot of in-between DPS items between T5 and T6, and compromises made with T6, that show how items may have value where they previously didn't.
The top isn't different, but the steps getting there definitely are. Essentially-- anything with AGI, AP, and sockets all got better than they were before. Items with all 3 got significantly buffed relative to "feral" items with STR/AGI.
With my numbers until you can get T6 level gear, (oddly enough) it goes roughly like chest, hat, shoulders, gloves, pants. In 2.3, the engineering hat becomes more viable, and so you can swap it with the shoulders. It's a bit of a muchness. The T4 pants are certainly the weakest of the pieces for dps.
There still issues with a lot of random epics, because they don't have agility on them, so while Bloodsea for example might be better than t4, it's only marginally so, and mainly due to item level and the wasted stats on the t4.
ETA:
There's no section for bear trinkets. Just that comment in the living root entry. [Badge of Tenacity] is probably a better trinket to use if you're switching because it's activateable.
As I understand it, lacerate crits will only increase the base damage component of it rather than the bonus threat, and more importantly, that initial application can be blocked, which because it's doing low damage can result in the whole hit being blocked and no threat applied.
You can't completely ignore the DoT component. Fully stacked, even at a 20% threat modifier they do in total about the same threat as the initial application. That's why you maintain it on mobs that are vulnerable to bleed effects.
I thought lacerate bleed threat was 10%, not 20%. Testing when it was changed tot he current version showed sunder armor level inital threat. Has that changed?
Clarifying a few points.
The reason + hit is good for druids is twofold. First, nifty things like the Hourglass, 2T4, and Omen only work when you hit. Missing dilutes their effectiveness. Second, ferals will average energy-to-damage conversion rates around 30-50, from karazhan to T6. This means that every missed shred or mangle is costing you around 270-450 lost damage and a missed rip is very painful. This energy conversion rate is much higher than rogues, and is the reason 2T4 is so good. Every proc is another 600-1000 damage.
The Shapeshifter's Signet gives you an effective 3% hit against boss and other 73 mobs, plus possibly other unknown bonuses. This makes it extremely efficient, and it it still useful even if you dps with a Earthwarden. On the other hand, 10% ap makes rogue gear competitive for many slots and it usually has an abundance of hit.
Next is an examination of the differences between the various tier pieces and which are the best to use at any particular point. The easy answer is to wear whichever T4 pieces you can't fill in with T5 or better.
The medium answer is always wear things with more sockets, like T6 gloves and T5&6 legs.
The long answer goes into a semi-detailed examination of the various pieces' stats as compared among the tiers. Here is the total stat changes for each piece in total stats as you advance along the tier sets. Socketing is so that each set, T4, 5 and 6, will activate a RED meta and yellows are always filled with pure hit gems. Mix and matching pieces will shuffle gems around a bit but shouldn't create major differences. Chests are always socketed for bonuses since they eat a yellow and a blue, T4 and T6 helm socket bonuses are included and T5 shoulders.
Helms:
T5 +5 str, +4 agi, -8 hit
T6 +16 str, +6 agi, -8 hit
Shoulders:
T5 +5 str, -1 agi, +8 hit
T6 +6 str, +5 agi, +8 hit
Chest:
T5 +17 str, -4 agi, -4 hit
T6 +24 str, +2 agi, -4 hit
Legs:
T5 +4 str, +13 agi, +18 hit
T6 +11 str, +17 agi, +27 hit
Gloves:
T5 +3 str, +3 agi
T6 +7 str, +16 agi
The hit diffences in the helms and shoulder are due to gem placements. T4 helm gets a hit gem, while they go in shoulders for the other tier sets. While individual placement may vary, while wearing T5 the best T4 pieces are clearly the gloves and the shoulders, although using the shoulders requires shifting a hit gem. While wearing T6 things get a little more complicated. Wearing shoulders and helm only costs you 22 str and just 11 agi while socketing your second yellow for the lovely T4 helm bonus. Shoulders and chest costs you 30 str yet only 7 agi while gaining 4 hit, but requires moving a yellow gem somewhere.
Incidentally, this also shows that T5&6 legs and T6 gloves are extremely good and are the best pieces in their respective sets.
How much straight +defense does it take to become undazeable? This is an area where using +def to reach uncrittable seems to have an edge over using +resilience to do the same thing.
As I understand it, lacerate crits will only increase the base damage component of it rather than the bonus threat, and more importantly, that initial application can be blocked, which because it's doing low damage can result in the whole hit being blocked and no threat applied.
Lacerate applications that are wholly blocked still refresh/increase the stack. I haven't been able to systematically test whether the threat is still applied, nor seen any tests to that effect. If the block is mitigation in the same sense as dodge or parry, then it would make sense that the bonus initial threat isn't applied, but by the same reasoning, it doesn't make sense that the stack is refreshed.
I was just going by the wowwiki description, but looking at the code for the latest version of the ace threat lib, it also has the values of 285 base threat, and then a 20% modifier on all damage. Lacerate doesn't scale with AP, so the maximum average threat you're likely to get when attacking is about 300 threat. Swipe on the other hand does scale with AP, with 7% of AP being added to your base damage. If you have good enough AP, crit and to get your average swipe damage up to more than 300 damage then it will generate more threat per attack than lacerate.
The issue is also complicated by blocks and weapon skill. Pretty much every TBC boss has a chance of blocking and will block for more than lacerate hits for and in those cases it generates no threat. Having weapon skill helps, but even at the infamous +5 level it doesn't negate block completely.
The lacerate threat issue was discussed in the bear tanking thread. Dukes came to the conclusion you need to do about 225 average damage (non crit) to generate more threat.
Not to mention going with strait +Hit is pretty bad compared to +agi/+hit even when not hit capped, you don't actually need yellow sockets to activate the RED, just gems that "count" as yellow.
How much straight +defense does it take to become undazeable? This is an area where using +def to reach uncrittable seems to have an edge over using +resilience to do the same thing.
Daze immunity is 475 for 70s + 5 for each level up. 490 for bosses. SotF does nothing for druid daze immunity.
This is realistically unattainable for druids while tanking and you will probably see a daze or two while tanking mobs that need to move fast, yes being dazed has killed my and wiped our Illidan attempts more than once.
10/10/07, 9:02 AM
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