Feral Megathread - Page 202

seminarca · 04/08/08, 7:19 PM

How about a mixture of the two though? (Swipe:Lacerate at a 2:1 ratio)

Now I don't have 4T6 just yet, and my full mitigation set also has significantly less crit (~31%) than you. It's likely I'd change my mind based on your numbers if the two changed.

Quick question, "Laceratespam" is the TPS/DPS from just the initial damage on spamming the skill right? And you've taken the ticks from 1 to 4, but Lacerate stacks up to 5 times. Am I missing something or did you miss the DPS/TPS for a 5 stack? =x

Mijae · 04/08/08, 7:24 PM

I have a number of TPS models available in my spreadsheet and a few more that are present, but not enabled. Right now there are only two readily available, both are Mangle/Lacerate spam but with Maul turned on or off. If you look on the BearTPS page there are a few more, just not currently activated for use on the gear selection page. I can turn these on for my next update.

As many have stated, Lacerate is better than Swipe one-for-one until 4t6. In T4 or less, Lacerate is always better on single targets. After 4t6, Swipe spam is slightly better and scales more with AP (or tanking in DPS group). The higher your gear gets above T4 (including being in DPS group instead of tank group), the better it is to only 5-stack Lacerate and spam Swipe between (even before 4t6).

Malazaar · 04/08/08, 7:27 PM

Originally Posted by seminarca

How about a mixture of the two though? (Swipe:Lacerate at a 2:1 ratio)

Now I don't have 4T6 just yet, and my full mitigation set also has significantly less crit (~31%) than you. It's likely I'd change my mind based on your numbers if the two changed.

Quick question, "Laceratespam" is the TPS/DPS from just the initial damage on spamming the skill right? And you've taken the ticks from 1 to 4, but Lacerate stacks up to 5 times. Am I missing something or did you miss the DPS/TPS for a 5 stack? =x

I think i didn't make that quite clear. What i mean with 'Lacerate 2tick' is i let Lacerate tick 2 times and spam Swipe in between, kinda like:

0.0 Lacerate (already at 5 stacks)
1.5 Swipe
3.0 Swipe (1st tick)
4.5 Swipe
6.0 Swipe (2nd tick)
7.5 Lacerate
...

And yes, Laceratespam seems to be awful compared to 4t6 swipe at the moment. I don't know if they changed lacerate threat though, i only know the damage.

Akhtal · 04/08/08, 8:33 PM

Originally Posted by Malazaar

I think i didn't make that quite clear. What i mean with 'Lacerate 2tick' is i let Lacerate tick 2 times and spam Swipe in between, kinda like:

0.0 Lacerate (already at 5 stacks)
1.5 Swipe
3.0 Swipe (1st tick)
4.5 Swipe
6.0 Swipe (2nd tick)
7.5 Lacerate
...

And yes, Laceratespam seems to be awful compared to 4t6 swipe at the moment. I don't know if they changed lacerate threat though, i only know the damage.

where are your mangles? Shouldn't it be more like

Mangle
Lacerate
Swipe
Swipe (1st tick)
Mangle
Lacerate (2nd tick) (if you lacerate after the tick?)
...

I'm not sure when are lacerate ticks, I just assumed you were right...

seminarca · 04/08/08, 9:11 PM

Originally Posted by Malazaar

I think i didn't make that quite clear. What i mean with 'Lacerate 2tick' is i let Lacerate tick 2 times and spam Swipe in between, kinda like:

k, that makes more sense, thanks.

Originally Posted by Akhtal

where are your mangles?

He said "Ignoring Mangle/Maul which take priority", of course those would be used without question (provided enough Rage for regular Mauls). The idea is to find out what's optimum GCD usage when Mangle is on cooldown.

Freedom · 04/08/08, 9:22 PM

Hello its late at night and i was just going through some crazy ideas in my head, mainly how efficient is mangle compared to shred, did some very rough calculations and seemed to have some posability.

So here is a copy of the second set of "less rough" calculations.

Assumptions = Standard feral build, 2xT6 Set Bonus

For Mangle calculations I assume, I have Idol of Terror "up all the time" and Ashtongue Talisman of Equilibrium "up all the time"

For Shred calculations I assume, I have Everbloom Idol, and Berserker's Call

Ok heres the stats i got from rawr with my gear assuming raid buffs and Enchance shaman "Windfury Not Grace of Air"

Hit Capped
2.2% Chance to be Dodged
28.3% Mob Mitigation "7700 armor minus debuffs and armor penitration"

In Shred Calculations
5374 AP "Berserker's Call = 182 AP"
43.51% Yellow Crit

In Mangle Calculations
5667 AP "Idol of Terror = 90 AP, Ashtongue Talisman of Equilibrium = 385 AP"
46.4 % Yellow Crit "Increased Crit from Idol of Terror"

Shred Calculation

225% Weapon Damage +405 +88 "Everbloom Idol"
Weapon Damage = ( 55.5 + 5374/14 ) * 1.1 = 483.3
Damage = (483.3 * 2.25) + 493 = 1580
Damage After Mitigation = 1580 * (1 - 0.283) = 1,133
Critical Damage = 1.133 * 2.26 = 2,560
Crit to Normal Relationship = 2.2% dodge 43.51% Crit, 54.29% Normal changes relationship to 44.5% Crit / 55.5% Normal
Average Damage = (44.5 * 2,560 + 55.5 * 1580) / 100 = 2016
Damage per Energy = 48

Mangle Calculation

192% Weapon Damage + 317
Weapon Damage = ( 55.5 + 5667/14 ) * 1.1 = 506.3
Damage = (506.3 * 1.92) + 317 = 1,289
Damage After Mitigation = 1,289 * (1 - 0.283) = 924
Critical Damage = 924 * 2.26 = 2,089
Crit to Normal Relationship = 2.2% dodge 46.4% Crit, 51.4% Normal changes relationship to 47.4% Crit / 52.6% Normal
Average Damage = (47.4 * 2,089 + 52.6 * 924) / 100 = 1476
Damage per Energy = 42.2

If these calculations are anything to go by it might seem plausable that a mangle spec could keep up with a shred spec. I can't be 100% that what i have done is correct but if so here are what i see as advantages/disadvanatges.

Advantages
Mangle Debuff on 100%
Extra AP / Crit from Idol/Trinket combo increasing rip/normal damage
Easy ripping cycle with faster combo point gains from crit and reduce energy cost of abilities ensuring rip will have almost no downtime.

Disadvantages
Idol of Terror will not effect one mangle every 12 secs possability of 2 mangles not triggering the buff "15% chance not to trigger on 1st mangle 2.25% chance not to trigger on 2nd mangle"
Tailisman of Equilibirum might not proc "chance of triggering 1st mangle 60%, 2nd Mangle 84%, 3rd Mangle 94%,4th Mangle 97%". however at 35 enegry a mangle and 40 energy every 2 seconds means 1.75 secsonds per mangle which should be sufficient"

Have a look at these calculations and see what your opinion is and critisisum or exploration is welcome

seminarca · 04/08/08, 9:33 PM

But you've still come up with:

Shred
Damage per Energy = 48

Mangle
Damage per Energy = 42.2

Under assumptions which seem slightly slanted towards Mangle. So I'm not quite sure how you're concluding Mangle would be able to keep up with Shred?

Freedom · 04/08/08, 9:42 PM

The way this could compete is Shred would be the additional stats gained by using Mangle procced abilities, as you can see they give just under 300 AP and just under 3% crit, there is also the more refined ability cycle which should reduce the downtime of rip and increase the percentage of 5 point rips against 4 point rips "Mangle costing 35 energy shred being 42".

I do admit there are loop holes in the possability of these buffs droping and the mechanics of idol of terror "cannot be refreshed while active", but i am wondering if there is a possability of this working, not trying to prove it works already.

Meddler · 04/08/08, 10:06 PM

I'd be very surprised to see this work, one other thing in favour of the mangle approach though is the option of freeing up another 2 talent points since you don't need the shred reduction cost.

Of course there aren't really any places I can think of to put those points to great benefit in a PVE build and you also lose the rage reduction cost on lacerate.

Edit: You'll also see slightly more benefit from some procs, I'm thinking 2T4 and OOC primarily, since you'll be making a few more special attacks due to the lower energy cost. I'd expect this to also be minor though.

Mijae · 04/08/08, 11:04 PM

Originally Posted by Freedom

Hello its late at night and i was just going through some crazy ideas in my head, mainly how efficient is mangle compared to shred, did some very rough calculations and seemed to have some posability.

I have a Mangle-only cycle in my spreadsheet. It can be close if you are able to squeeze in Shred's when all procs are up (not modeled), but Standard rotation is just always better. If you are a set the specific task of Mangle-bot, then yes there are ways to optimize it.

Beace · 04/08/08, 11:12 PM

On Brutallus I was trying to keep lacerate at full stacks, and using swipe any other time. Surprisingly WWS from our kill claims my swipe non-crits were averaging at 262 and crits at 576, which feels very high for such a high-armor boss. Gonna pay more attention to it next time.

Sarasper · 04/09/08, 2:39 AM

I'd be curious if whether or not powershifting is more efficient with the standard cycle or a mangle cycle. Certainly there would be no need to wait for another tick if a powershift is immediately followed by a mangle as compared to a shred.

Also, not sure if the cycles were assuming being in a melee group or not. If you're in a melee group then Idol of the raven goddess is probably being used anyway unless you have 2 ferals in the melee group which wouldn't be ideal I don't think.

Edit: would it be appropriate to add the 2.68% crit to white damage from the idol of terror for the mangle cycle?

Vaccine · 04/09/08, 3:57 AM

Well I was in the hunter group, one or more of which was a BM hunter. With all the debuffs on the boss (recklessness, sunder, farie fire) and the buffs from the hunters my swipes were hitting for 264 average hit which I'm confident is a decent bit higher than Lacerate threat.

Malazaar · 04/09/08, 5:30 AM

I think the conclusion here is to use lacerate only on a 5 stacks refresh after ~9+ seconds basis and only if you have absolutely no problem with debuff slot. In that case, lacerate will slightly increase you tps and greatly increase you dps.

Daboran · 04/09/08, 5:46 AM

Originally Posted by Panderas

Our guild has killed Brutallus and we're using the 2 tank, 7 healer strat. We are using a warrior and a druid to tank, starting with the Druid first on the MD.

We had an attempt where we got him to 2% and it was pulled by a mage with around 2250 dps, we ended up killing him an hour later, but all 3 of our mages had to fully invis.

After looking at the WWS report, our druid did not lacerate once, only used swipe/mangle/maul. Most of the top DPS guilds WWS reports show their druids not touching swipe at all, and using only lacerate/mangle/maul in their TPS rotations.

Think this had alot to do with the pulling or is there something else we may have done wrong? I am trying to find the solution so our mages don't have to invis (most top dps guild's mages don't invis).

Thanks for the replies.

There's a few schools of thought on the rotation. I'm using Maul/Mangle/Swipe simply because we have an Aff Lock in the raid and debuff slots are tight as it is without Lacerate (high priority) knocking stuff off. Threat between the two is not that much different and depends on gear, but usually slightly higher for Lacerate in defensive armor.

If Threat is an issue, try getting the Feral to equip more +hit/expertise. If you gem/equip for survivability on Brutallus then take it from me your miss/dodge rates on the Boss are truly saddening. [Brooch of Deftness] instead of any of the alternatives is great for this or throw a +hit gem somewhere.

If this isn't practical then improve the Feral's group. Put Hunters or a Shaman in with him, see if you can work a Battle Shout in his group etc etc. One of the smartest MT groups for Brut I've seen was Warrior, Feral, Enh Shaman, Rogue, MS Warrior - but thats only possible with certain raid compositions and a range-heavy raid usually.