(supremus, for example, is based entirely on health)
Days-old reply, trivial, and probably off-topic, but I thought I'd just pipe up since I'm a chronic perfectionist - His Hateful Strike works exactly like Patchwerk's - targets the highest HP of those with threat positions 2 to X within melee range (where X is either 3 or 4 in context of Supremus - I'm pretty sure it was 4 for Patchwerk)
We've definitely had both offtanks slack too much on a transition back which resulted in lots of dead melee and screaming on vent. >_> (And I think we wiped that attempt. Don't ask)
You're right on the cell numbers.. I don't know what I was thinking when I typed those out. The floor command is just there to make SotF round down. I'm not sure what the equivalent command would be in open office. My crit and dodge percentages were off as well, but I don't think they were off by that much. I'll try to take a look at it again tomorrow and see if I can find where the calculations are going wrong.
It's a huge shame that it's inaccurate and outdated, because this kind of spreadsheet is pretty awesome, if reliable.
I actually went through thinking about swipe vs lacerate again.
In no particular order, the threat moves you should be using:
- Mangle. You should always be using this if it is off cooldown.
- Swipe. You should be using this if tanking more than 1 mob, as long as it doesn't screw up crowd control (sheep/etc).
- Lacerate. This is for tanking one mob in a low damage/high armour situation (i.e. the mob has high armour or you're doing low damage to it because of lack of buffs or similar). The bleed part of lacerate is of almost no impact on threat. Lacerating just to keep up 5 stacks is not worth it.
- Maul. As above, use when you have a lot of rage and don't use if you're rage starved a lot.
Generally the point where swipe overtakes lacerate in terms of threat output is when it's doing ~225 damage to the target normally.
If the formula I'm using is correct, lacerate is a static 210 threat, and all lacerate damage causes 80% reduced threat. So with lacerate hitting for ~30 (probably depends on AP), that tacks an extra 6 threat to it, or 12 threat for a crit. Lacerate also ticks for ~250 with mangle up (again, probably depends on your AP), so that's 50 threat per 3 seconds, or 25 per GCD. So all in all, between 240 and 250 threat depending on crits.
Swipe generates hate just equal to the damage. The tricky part here is crits. Swipe wouldn't have to equal 240-250 damage per swipe to put out more TPS, because it can crit. If it crits for little over double threat 30% of the time (not a difficult to reach crit number for a bear in tank gear), it's essentially putting out 33% (10% predatory instincts) more dmg/threat. So to match 240 that would put it around 180 damage hits, or 165 to match the ~220 threat from lacerate, ignoring the dot aspect (more on that in a bit). These numbers are calculated from my damage numbers, they might vary for you.
Of course, this is ignoring the possibility of applying full lacerate, then only using it often enough to keep it up there. I know it is mentioned that lacerating just for the debuff isn't worth it, but if you're absolutely trying to max tps, from a theorycrafting point of view, it looks like it is.
This only matters when you're swiping because it's putting out more threat than lacerate, otherwise you'll keep the debuff stacked fully just tanking like normal anyway. Lacerate is 5 ticks, 15 seconds, 250 threat in those 15 seconds. Let's say that with lag/pre-occupation with other aspects of the fight/etc, you refresh it every 12 seconds. That's 4 ticks, or 200 threat, for replacing one swipe with a lacerate instead. Basically that means that one swipe has to put out 200 more threat than lacerate (completely impossible with current gear) before it is simply not worth it to trade in one swipe for one lacerate every 12 seconds.
I don't know if I'm oversimplifying things here, or if I've got some calculations/formula's wrong, but looking at it like this, swipe becomes better than lacerate at much lower damage than 225 (for me it could be as low as 165, which I might even reach against void reaver), and that the lacerate debuff is worth keeping up. It's not much extra threat, but it's more threat than simply swipe spamming.
That definitely throws off my swipe vs lacerate calculations (putting it around the 225 mentioned). Although it doesn't change the lacerate dot part, unless I missed something there too. Even if swipe does enough damage to become better than lacerate, it's still worth keeping the dot up for higher tps.
Taken from Omen's "druid.lua" which I am assumed is as close as possible to the actual threat, Lacerate has a 285 static component with a 0.2 multiplier for the damage. Assuming a lacerate hit for 30 with a crit rate of 30%, the threat generated is 285 + (0.2*30*(1+.3*2.26)) = 295 (for a bleed immune mob). Add on the bleed damage (150 per stack, or 37.5 threat per stack over 15 seconds) and you get approximately 335 threat with 0 stacks, or ~482.5 with 5 stacks.
Swipe generates threat directly from damage (i.e. a swipe for 300 does 300 threat). Assuming you want to generate 335 threat average with a crit chance of 30%, you need to do (1+0.3*2.26)*x=335 or x= 335/(1+0.3*2.26) which is approximately 200 damage.
For a bleed immune mob, it's 295/(1+0.3*2.26) = ~175 damage.
For refreshing a 5 stack, it's ~287.5 damage.
I think I originally worked it out with 25% crit chance, and approximated it to being 225 damage as an average, which looks about right from what I've just said above. As these take into account armour (lacerate is barely affected and the swipe damage is what you observe) it's quite a good approximation. For me, even with 4t6 I'm better off using lacerate on most single target trash, just because of a lack of sunders (although my crit chance is closer to 40%, so its entirely dependant on the mob or how I'm feeling - sometimes I just switch between the two for a bit of variety).
For me, even with 4t6 I'm better off using lacerate on most single target trash, just because of a lack of sunders.
I dunno, it's pretty irritating to have lacerate fully blocked (which hasn't happened for me with swipe yet). However, as you said lack of sunders is a factor, as well as the seemingly ever present CC.
I've switched to using swipe almost exclusively on fights where my flailing aoe doesn't matter.
Next patch armour pen items become vailable to the general public too which makes swipe even better vs lacerate when you've got any dps gear on. I know my trash tanking gear is going to be switching to every armour penetration and expertise piece I have supplemented by enough to keep crit immune vs 71-72.
Originally Posted by Shadowed
The best part is, not only were you late in linking it, that's an April fools topic from 6 months ago.
I dunno, it's pretty irritating to have lacerate fully blocked (which hasn't happened for me with swipe yet). However, as you said lack of sunders is a factor, as well as the seemingly ever present CC.
A fully blocked Lacerate refreshes the bleed stack.
Is the mechanic for refreshing the stack separate from the actual damage component? More importantly, is the threat component completely independent of the damage? If a fully blocked attack is considered to be a hit that does no damage instead of actual avoidance, it's possible that the threat is still applied. I don't know how block works, and haven't been able to find any theorycraft along these lines, since attacks that can be completely blocked are pretty rare at end game.
The talk about warriors being daze immune and Druids not got me thinking. It's something that often annoys me when Tinman manages to sneak a quick daze on me during the Opera event.
The answer is somewhat obvious. If a druid was daze immune there would be no penalty, in terms of damage mitigation, to running around as much as you like during a fight.
If a warrior turns and runs he will not be dazed but he will lose the ability to block or parry and, therefore, take a lot more damage. Because you can dodge when a mob hits you from behind (I'm assuming we can do this? mobs certainly can) we would not have that penalty.
Although, it's quite situational, and I can't think of an example right now, there are probably good reasons why you don't want players to maintain mitigation whilst running about willy nilly.
edit: Forget all that then. Only NPCs can dodge with their back turned. I want to daze immunity!
The talk about warriors being daze immune and Druids not got me thinking. It's something that often annoys me when Tinman manages to sneak a quick daze on me during the Opera event.
The answer is somewhat obvious. If a druid was daze immune there would be no penalty, in terms of damage mitigation, to running around as much as you like during a fight.
If a warrior turns and runs he will not be dazed but he will lose the ability to block or parry and, therefore, take a lot more damage. Because you can dodge when a mob hits you from behind (I'm assuming we can do this? mobs certainly can) we would not have that penalty.
Although, it's quite situational, and I can't think of an example right now, there are probably good reasons why you don't want players to maintain mitigation whilst running about willy nilly.
You can't dodge with your back turned, only NPC's can.
That's awesome, 20% less damage once a minute for 12 secs is going to be significant. Averages out to a 4% flat damage reduction, but you can time it with a boss's special high damage skill for better effect.
As for Daze, you can mostly get around the problem by strafe kiting or jump turning, but I can't think Blizzard deems this serious enough to make changes specifically to make us Daze immune somehow.
Challenging Roar: The chance for this ability to land successfully on its targets is now increased by hit rating.
Growl: The chance for this ability to land successfully on its target is now increased by hit rating.
A fully blocked Lacerate refreshes the bleed stack.
Is the mechanic for refreshing the stack separate from the actual damage component? More importantly, is the threat component completely independent of the damage? If a fully blocked attack is considered to be a hit that does no damage instead of actual avoidance, it's possible that the threat is still applied. I don't know how block works, and haven't been able to find any theorycraft along these lines, since attacks that can be completely blocked are pretty rare at end game.
I thought that the threat component was associated with the damage dealt, and as such a block would not give you the threat.
Originally Posted by Nathariel
Now does that make it Spell level resists influenced by melee hit (17%) or melee level (9%)?
Anyway it definitely cannot hurt.
Judging from how often I get resists on the damn skill, I am going to be pessimistic and say 17% .
und in Bär? Was ist mit dem Bääähääär?
That's awesome, 20% less damage once a minute for 12 secs is going to be significant. Averages out to a 4% flat damage reduction, but you can time it with a boss's special high damage skill for better effect.
The quote only lists cat and travel form. Explicitly no mention of bear form.
Improvements to my cat form tanking(something I do much to the chagrin of all my healers on most of the BT trash) are welcome, would like to see this added to bear for some of that sexy survival button action.
I actually went through thinking about swipe vs lacerate again.
[...]
Swipe generates hate just equal to the damage.
At the risk of sounding as a complete idiot, shouldn't swipe's threat be modified by the bear stance?
I know it was nerfed somehwere around 2.0 to no longer have extra bonus threat, but does that include the baseline stance modifier (130% / 145 or 149.5% if talented) ?
---Before submitting, I've logged my druid and dps'd some random mobs, KTM seems to agree that swipe's damage *is* affected by bear stance: a swipe hitting for 139 brought my threat from 7876 to 8077, which is an increase of 201. 139*1.45 = 201.
So, is KTM wrong, or should we re-evaluate the breakeven point of swipe being better than lacerate at 155, down from 225?
By the way, do talents bring bear stance to 145% ( 130% + 15%) or 149.5% (130% * 115%) I remember reading that warrior talents stacked multiplicatively, and druid ones only addictively, and KTM does seem to use these values, but are they 100% confirmed or is there any doubt?
Last edited by Gruturistic : 11/03/07 at 1:53 AM.
Reason: edited out last line (salutation)
Improvements to my cat form tanking(something I do much to the chagrin of all my healers on most of the BT trash) are welcome, would like to see this added to bear for some of that sexy survival button action.
Then its cooldown would have to be vastly increased...
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At the risk of sounding as a complete idiot, shouldn't swipe's threat be modified by the bear stance?
I know it was nerfed somehwere around 2.0 to no longer have extra bonus threat, but does that include the baseline stance modifier (130% / 145 or 149.5% if talented) ?
---Before submitting, I've logged my druid and dps'd some random mobs, KTM seems to agree that swipe's damage *is* affected by bear stance: a swipe hitting for 139 brought my threat from 7876 to 8077, which is an increase of 201. 139*1.45 = 201.
So, is KTM wrong, or should we re-evaluate the breakeven point of swipe being better than lacerate at 155, down from 225?
By the way, do talents bring bear stance to 145% ( 130% + 15%) or 149.5% (130% * 115%) I remember reading that warrior talents stacked multiplicatively, and druid ones only addictively, and KTM does seem to use these values, but are they 100% confirmed or is there any doubt?
Yeah, bear agro and talents do add to swipe threat, but those modifiers add to all threat we generate, including the static 285 that lacerate generates. So when comparing different threat moves we have, we can simply ignore those bonusses because they'd apply to both anyway.
I thought that the threat component was associated with the damage dealt, and as such a block would not give you the threat.
You'd think it wouldn't refresh the bleed stack, either. Does a blocked Devastate refresh the Sunder stack? Can a fully blocked attack proc weapon buffs like poisons or Windfury? Far as I know it's an open question, which would have a minor impact on the Swipe threshold. Not terribly important, but something I've been wondering about. Can't really think of a good way to test it, though.
Taken from Omen's "druid.lua" which I am assumed is as close as possible to the actual threat, Lacerate has a 285 static component with a 0.2 multiplier for the damage. Assuming a lacerate hit for 30 with a crit rate of 30%, the threat generated is 285 + (0.2*30*(1+.3*2.26)) = 295 (for a bleed immune mob). Add on the bleed damage (150 per stack, or 37.5 threat per stack over 15 seconds) and you get approximately 335 threat with 0 stacks, or ~482.5 with 5 stacks.
Swipe generates threat directly from damage (i.e. a swipe for 300 does 300 threat). Assuming you want to generate 335 threat average with a crit chance of 30%, you need to do (1+0.3*2.26)*x=335 or x= 335/(1+0.3*2.26) which is approximately 200 damage.
For a bleed immune mob, it's 295/(1+0.3*2.26) = ~175 damage.
For refreshing a 5 stack, it's ~287.5 damage.
I think I originally worked it out with 25% crit chance, and approximated it to being 225 damage as an average, which looks about right from what I've just said above. As these take into account armour (lacerate is barely affected and the swipe damage is what you observe) it's quite a good approximation. For me, even with 4t6 I'm better off using lacerate on most single target trash, just because of a lack of sunders (although my crit chance is closer to 40%, so its entirely dependant on the mob or how I'm feeling - sometimes I just switch between the two for a bit of variety).
About Lacerate. Swipe is almost always better than simply spamming Lacerate (Lacerate spam being the 295 threat)
155 damage over 15 seconds per stack, stacking 5 times, effected by Mangle debuff, this works out to 201.5 per tic. I usually attempt to refresh around 7 seconds left, between the 4th and 5th tic, this allows 2 attempts to land Lacerate in case of a dodge/parry/miss on the first cast. So in essence I'm only getting 4 tics, you can never get all 5 without letting lacerate expire, and then you're wasting rage building it back up to 5.
201.5 * 4 * .2 = 161.2 + 295 = 456.2 threat. This works out to be equal to a 272 Swipe.
I could be wrong, but I don't think we'll ever see that kind of swipe in reasonable tanking gear.
11/01/07, 7:53 PM
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