Feral Megathread - Page 236

zoneout · 05/08/08, 5:00 PM

For power shifting, i am using the macro
/cast !Cat Form

If i'm not fighting anything, i'll pop out of and back into cat form in a blur. I can test this till i'm outta mana. Works great.

If i'm dpsing a boss, i'll USUALLY just pop into caster form, and then have to hit the macro a second time to pop back into cat form. Once every 4-5 times it will go automagically...

Anyone seen this issue?

Oodalolly · 05/08/08, 5:08 PM

Originally Posted by killets

I'm not sure its worth it. You're not only losing stats, you're losing the meta gem too. While Rawr doesn't currently model Wolfshead Helm's bonus, I can tell you factually that my DPS numbers go from 1303 to 1206 by simply unequipping my Cursed Vision of Sargeras.

How huge is that? Well, in my current item setup, which uses 4x T6, 2xT4, 1xCursed Vision, Swapping the T4 chest to a T6 chest (aka breaking the T4 bonus) results in only a 50dps loss.

If I set "Powershifting" to every cycle, my dps is 1374. If I set "Powershifting" to none, my dps is 1289. Just to give you an idea how huge the 100dps loss from replacing Cursed Vision is.

That just says that CVoS is a good helm, but doesn't really address the issue, which is: is Wolfshead helm better? For a very simple model I'm going to assume the extra energy generated gets used in a shred, because I don't really feel like coming up with a whole rotation right now, but lets say you average slightly over 2000 damage on a shred (certainly a reasonable number). Shred costs 42 energy, so 20 energy would be approx. 1000 damage, so wolfshead helm would be adding 1000 damage per powershift. If you powershift every rotation (about every 10 seconds, if I'm wrong on that someone please correct me), then that's 100 dps - same as CVoS.

Tossk's calculator actually lists wolfshead helm substantially higher than any other helm in the game, including sunwell, if you set it to powershift every cycle.

Like the other poster, though, I'd like to see a more complicated model that includes the powershift rotation that would be optimal for using this helm.

Astrylian · 05/08/08, 5:23 PM

"If I set "Powershifting" to every cycle, my dps is 1374. If I set "Powershifting" to none, my dps is 1289. Just to give you an idea how huge the 100dps loss from replacing Cursed Vision is."

That's the important part. The difference between Powershifting (40 energy) and not (~5 energy) is under a hundred dps. Bumping that up to 60 energy would be ~50dps. So there's have to be less than 50dps difference between the stats on wolfshead and the stats on CVoS, which there definitely is more of.

Oodalolly · 05/08/08, 5:35 PM

Originally Posted by Astrylian

"If I set "Powershifting" to every cycle, my dps is 1374. If I set "Powershifting" to none, my dps is 1289. Just to give you an idea how huge the 100dps loss from replacing Cursed Vision is."

That's the important part. The difference between Powershifting (40 energy) and not (~5 energy) is under a hundred dps. Bumping that up to 60 energy would be ~50dps. So there's have to be less than 50dps difference between the stats on wolfshead and the stats on CVoS, which there definitely is more of.

Normal powershifting doesn't actually get you 40 energy per shift, as you are almost never at 0 energy when you shift, so the amount you actually gain is normally between 10 and 30 energy - whereas with the helm you actually do get +20 energy over the previous powershifting rotation.

I believe Tossk's calculator assumes a 17 energy average gain per powershift, if I'm not mistaken.

Astrylian · 05/08/08, 5:40 PM

Originally Posted by Oodalolly

Normal powershifting doesn't actually get you 40 energy per shift, as you are almost never at 0 energy when you shift, so the amount you actually gain is normally between 10 and 30 energy - whereas with the helm you actually do get +20 energy over the previous powershifting rotation.

I believe Tossk's calculator assumes a 17 energy average gain per powershift, if I'm not mistaken.

That's exactly why I said 40 vs ~5, not 40 vs 0.

Xertigo · 05/08/08, 5:41 PM

Originally Posted by kalbear

Not a lot. It only increases your white attack speed and your maul attack speed. Keep in mind that haste is a consistent stat no matter what. In other words, if you reduce your speed to attack by 10% you will attack 10% more often in the same period of time no matter what your weapon speed actually is. Given that white attacks/mauls are about 25% of your overall threat generation, each 1% of haste increase will increase your threat by .25% or so.

This is about 3 times worse than what hit and expertise do for your threat generation before they're hit-capped, so if threat is an issue I'd recommend going with hit and expertise, not haste.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that white attacks/mauls make up about 25% of your overall threat generation, but it is incorrect. I think you could say 50% and be a lot closer to the actual number. I got this estimate from wws looking at the dmg breakout of druids tanking brutallus. In pretty much all cases, swing+maul was > 50% of the damage done, with lacerate and mangle pretty much equally making up the rest (35% maul, 25% swing, 20% lacerate, 20% mangle was a common split). Even though mangle has a pretty substantial threat bonus, it is not generating 50% of total bear threat.

Personally, I think haste is a great stat for threat generation for tanking trash or 5-mans or Karazhan or pretty much anything except hard hitting bosses. While expertise is a great stat for threat generation, you really only have an item choice in 3 slots: neck, ring, and trinket (I think the decision to wear T6 boots is probably a no-brainer). In these cases, you should probably make the choice by either ilvl or other tanking stats (i.e. do you need stamina or armor more than threat for a particular fight). Those slots aside, it really comes down to hit vs haste for any of the other slots that really carry a much larger impact (chest, legs, head, etc.). In the hit vs haste comparison, I think there are 2 important points to consider: 1 - it is very easy to hit-cap yourself for level 71 mobs (a majority of the trash mobs) and 2 - you can gem for hit , but you can't gem for haste. That being the case, I think you can get a pretty decent boost in threat by incorporating a few pieces of haste gear into your set. While you might not use it to tank Brutallus or Bloodboil, I think that especially for trash clears, it is useful.

Oodalolly · 05/08/08, 5:45 PM

Originally Posted by Astrylian

That's exactly why I said 40 vs ~5, not 40 vs 0.

Well my point was that he's seeting about a 100 dps boost from powershifting using a calculator that is assuming he only gains 17 energy per powershift, so another 20 energy would be about 120 dps more, assuming it scales linearly.

TorelTwiddler · 05/08/08, 5:53 PM

First off, thanks to this thread and others like it, I've gone from just above the bad dps to just below the top. So thank you all who posted helpful info.

Now, I've gotten powershifting down to a science, and I'm curious if I may be powershifting too much. Here's my thought process:

If Rip isn't up, use Rip (I always have more than enough CPs).
If Mangle isn't up, use Mangle.
If both Rip and Mangle are up, Shred.

Pretty basic thought, the only problem comes in with enough energy to support that. As far as I'm concerned, any time you are sitting waiting for energy is wasted time. Powershifting should mean the longest you wait for energy is at most 2 seconds, or else you should powershift.

Normally: 2 seconds = 20 energy.
Powershifting: 1.5 seconds (GCD) = 40 energy.

However, once you powershift, your energy ticker gets reset and ticks one second, I believe, after the 40 energy from furor appears at the end of the GCD. This means that you go from 1.5secs=40nrg to 2.5secs = 60nrg. If you assume you powershift directly after using an ability, add 1 second on. 3.5secs = 60nrg or 17 energy/second. A much better return rate than normal, and allows for a shred.

This of course isn't including OOC procs or 2T4, but as a general rule, if Rip and Mangle are up, I power shift if I have less than 22 energy, or less than 20 if either are down. With this I powershift probably every 6-8 seconds or so. The only time I have mana problems is if I die and get battleres'ed.

Is there a flaw in my thinking somewhere? This seems to me to be a better cycle than the 12-second-wait-for-energy cycle.

Allev · 05/08/08, 5:58 PM

The powershift rotation that's optimal with that helm is shifting every single time it's possible. Essentially-- is your energy too low to attack? If yes, powershift. It'll always be a huge energy gain, thus a DPS gain.

The helm would essentially eliminate the need for a finding an optimal cycle-- you are essentially mana-bound rather than energy-bound. You'll be pushing your shifting to the upper bounds of your mana pool.

Which means, spirit/mp5/int get values in the calculators... Gah, I didn't want to see that. Elixirs of mastery, flasks of chromatic wonder (or worse, mighty restoration)...

I feel this is a realm which no one wants to go, because as soon as someone does (with significant investment), it'll be nerfed.

Edit: Torel, go buy a Wolfshead and get us a parse!

TorelTwiddler · 05/08/08, 6:11 PM

Heh, my post above is completely separate from the Wolf's head idea, although it is intriguing.

kalbear · 05/08/08, 6:16 PM

I'm not sure where you got the idea that white attacks/mauls make up about 25% of your overall threat generation, but it is incorrect. I think you could say 50% and be a lot closer to the actual number. I got this estimate from wws looking at the dmg breakout of druids tanking brutallus. In pretty much all cases, swing+maul was > 50% of the damage done, with lacerate and mangle pretty much equally making up the rest (35% maul, 25% swing, 20% lacerate, 20% mangle was a common split). Even though mangle has a pretty substantial threat bonus, it is not generating 50% of total bear threat.

I think that's more a factor of gear than anything else; lacerate is a lot larger of a threat scalar at lower gear levels.

Really though, it doesn't matter. The important thing to note is that expertise affects all of your threat-generating attacks, and it does so twice as well as hit does. Given the same amount of attacks, 16 points of expertise rating will give you 2% more attacks landed - 2% more mauls, 2% more mangles, 2% more lacerate, swipe, and swings. For every 16 points of hit rating, you'll get 1% more attacks landed. For every 16 points of haste rating, you'll get 1% more swings and mauls landed. At best, haste is equivalent to hit rating - and that assumes that 100% of all of your threat is maul and swing. Even if it is 50% of your threat, haste is still half as good as hit rating and 4 times worse than expertise for threat generation.

For trash you will get more threat, as hit and expertise do not scale as well. If you're looking for more threat on bosses though, cap expertise first, then hit, then go with haste.

Blazefire · 05/08/08, 7:20 PM

Originally Posted by kalbear

Excellent. In that case, I think I've found the easiest way to get Fire Resist capped for the Flames of Azzinoth without sacrificing too much.

Head: [Vengeful Gladiator's Dragonhide Helm] with [Steady Talasite] and a metagem
Neck: [Amulet of the Torn-Heart]
Shoulders: doesn't matter, as long as it has [Greater Inscription of the Knight]
Cloak: [Wyrmcultist's Cloak] + [Formula: Enchant Cloak - Superior Fire Resistance]
Chest: [Vengeful Gladiator's Dragonhide Tunic]
Wrists: doesn't matter
Gloves: [Inferno Hardened Gloves]
Belt: [Blastguard Belt]
Legs: [Inferno Hardened Leggings]
Boots: [Inferno Hardened Boots]
Ring: [Phoenix-Fire Band]
Ring 2: doesn't matter
Trinket 1, 2: doesn't matter
MH, Idol: doesn't matter

This set by itself is 263 FR and is uncrittable. If you are not scryer, you can get the glyph of the gladiator to take care of the resilience. The merciless set will work just as well, and with the S4 set the S2 set will be purchasable with honor. With a flask of Chromatic Wonder and a paladin aura, you will be at 368 FR. Given some average equipment otherwise (T5 shoulders, band of the swift paw, Wildfury greatstaff, badge of tenacity/violet badge), no other enchants and rare gemming only, you'll be around 16.2k health - and that's using the MG set. Enchanted with cheaper enchants (clefthide, knothide kits, glyph of the gladiator) you'll be at 17.4k with only the chromatic flask buff, along with 22.8% ddoge.

This will cost you 70 badges, about 33k honor (in S4), require you to complete the champion of the naaru questline and do a small amount of grinding for costume scraps in Blade's Edge. It also requires 4 heavy knothide, 6 fel hide, 3 primal earth and 3 primal water. That's not too bad and gives you a fair amount of good threat given the PvP gear and some of the better slot items.

I went with a similar setup, although far less PvP gear and more tanking gear, which yeilds 18k HP, 260 FR, uncrittable, and 25.68% dodge, all unbuffed. You need an FR totem or aura and a chromatic flask to hit 365. I think HP gets up to 22k and dodge to 34.43% after buffs

Head: [Merciless Gladiator's Dragonhide Helm] with def/dodge enchat
Neck: [Frayed Tether of the Drowned]
Shoulders: doesn't matter, as long as it has [Greater Inscription of the Knight]
Cloak: [Slikk's Cloak of Placation]
Chest: [Inferno Hardened Chestguard]
Wrists: [Vindicator's Dragonhide Bracers]
Gloves: [Inferno Hardened Gloves]
Belt: [Blastguard Belt]
Legs: [Inferno Hardened Leggings]
Boots: [Inferno Hardened Boots]
Ring: [Phoenix-Fire Band]
Ring 2: [Band of the Abyssal Lord]
Trinket 1: [Commendation of Kael'thas] Doesnt matter, but HP is good
Trinket 2: [Moroes' Lucky Pocket Watch] Doesn't matter, but dodge is good
Weapon: [Staff of the Forest Lord]

So basically 6 slots (the bolded items) of gear to hit 260 FR (last 105 come from aura/totem and flask), and that leaves 9 slots to fill out uncrittable, HP, and dodge

Xertigo · 05/08/08, 7:37 PM

Originally Posted by kalbear

At best, haste is equivalent to hit rating - and that assumes that 100% of all of your threat is maul and swing.

However, the value of hit depends somewhat on how much hit you already have (hit rating 1-50 is significantly more useful than hit rating 100-150. A better way of saying this, is that you need to get hit first, but after you get 50 rating, you can probably add an item that adds haste and after you reach 100 hit rating, you can probably add a 2-3 items that add haste. Another point (on the boss vs trash aspect) is that the rage normalization process does not account for haste, so more haste = more rage which is also helpful for generating more threat.

Thessaly · 05/08/08, 8:08 PM

Originally Posted by zoneout

For power shifting, i am using the macro
/cast !Cat Form

If i'm not fighting anything, i'll pop out of and back into cat form in a blur. I can test this till i'm outta mana. Works great.

If i'm dpsing a boss, i'll USUALLY just pop into caster form, and then have to hit the macro a second time to pop back into cat form. Once every 4-5 times it will go automagically...

Anyone seen this issue?

You're in the global cooldown. Check out some of the bear pot use macros in the first post for a /script that will check to make sure you'll shift instantly.

kalbear · 05/08/08, 8:20 PM

However, the value of hit depends somewhat on how much hit you already have (hit rating 1-50 is significantly more useful than hit rating 100-150.

I don't see how this is true. Hit scales linearly as well. It might not scale with the overall amount of threat as a percentage, but taking 1% of the misses off the table does so at the first or the last percent. Over time, they'll be equivalent. Against trash, I agree - the first few percentages are better than the last. However, I wouldn't want to buy badge gear to get haste rating so I could take care of trash more easily.

And as I said before, that assumes that hit rating is equivalent to haste rating. That's absolutely not true; even if maul & swing is 50% of your total threat, that means that haste is 50% as good as hit rating.

Finally, hit rating helps with taunt resists; haste does nothing.