Feral Megathread - Page 237

Krazen · 05/08/08, 8:51 PM

I am getting some confusing results from rawr.

Looking over the versions of [Band of the Swift Paw] in Rawr: cat, the bracers do significantly worse socketed for agility, rather than socketed for defense. So, I'll just ask:

Are [Swiftstrike Bracers] worth using for cat dps? I'll be spending close to 1000g for them if I make them, so I'd expect them to be on par with the Teron/Rage bracers, which i could buy for ~1500g.

Scurn · 05/08/08, 9:49 PM

Alright I did some Rawr work on the Wolfshead Helm. The gear set I used is probably not fully optimized but I made sure I had 2T4 and 2T6 and then just picked everything else to be best in slot according to what Rawr said using full buffs.

Head - [Duplicitous Guise] Relentless + Delicate Spinel
Neck - [Clutch of Demise]
Shoulder - [Mantle of Malorne] Delicate Spinel + Shifting Shadowsong
Back - [Thalassian Wildercloak]
Chest - [Breastplate of Malorne] Inscribed Pyrestone, Shifting Shadowsong, Delicate Spinel
Wrist - [Insidious Bands] Glinting Pyreston
Hands - [Gloves of Immortal Dusk] 2xDelicate Spinel
Belt - [Thunderheart Waistguard] Delicate Spinel
Legs - [Leggings of the Immortal Night] 3xDelicate Spinel
Feet - [Thunderheart Treads] Delicate Spinel
Fingers - [Hard Khorium Band], [Angelista's Revenge]
Trinkets - [Shard of Contempt], [Dragonspine Trophy]
Weapon - [Stanchion of Primal Instinct]
Idol - [Everbloom Idol]

AP=6071
Avoided Attacks = 2.45%
Yellow Crit = 52.11%
Shreds Per Cycle = 2.442
Cycle Time = 12s
Mangle Damage = 8.31%
Shred Damage = 32.6%
Melee Damage = 40.9%
Rip Damage = 18.18%
DPS Points = 1920

Using the above DPS number and percentages we can get the average mangle/shred/rip/white damage numbers.
Melee=785.3
Mangle=1914.34
Shred=3076.2
Rip=4189 (Over a 12s cycle)

Removing the head piece to simulate replacing it with the Wolfshead (which you can't actually remove the piece in Rawr btw you have to start a new profile) gives:

AP=5829
Avoided Attacks = 4.61%
Yellow Crit = 48.13%
Shreds Per Cycle = 2.46
Cycle Time = 12s
Mangle Damage = 8.43%
Shred Damage = 32.62%
Melee Damage = 39.66%
Rip Damage = 19.28%
DPS Points = 1764.96

Using the above DPS number and percentages we can get the average mangle/shred/rip/white damage numbers.
Melee=700.06
Mangle=1785.89
Shred=2811.99
Rip=4083.39 (Over a 12s cycle)

Using the above cycle I posted you have 12 white hits, 2 mangles, 3 shreds and the full rip damage.
Melee=8400.72
Mangle=3571.78
Shred=8435.97
Rip=4083.39
Total Damage=24497.86 (2041.49DPS)

The Wolfshead Helm data also ignores regemming for more hit, 2T4 procs, OoC procs or even swapping 2T4 to get 4T6. Can anyone spot some obvious mistakes in what I did? If not under "perfect" circumstances it looks like a gain when you optimize your cycle for the Wolfshead and compare to the Rawr's default cycle. I don't exactly think the optimum Wolfshead cycle is obtainable since you are using 8 out of 12 globals and a miss/dodge throws it all off not to mention a moving target.

Note: The average melee damage is going to be slightly less because I just multiplied the melee dps by 12 which ignores the haste from DST, Clutch of Demise and other gear which will give you more white hits in a 12s window but since I divided by 12 later it makes no difference.

Scurn · 05/08/08, 10:00 PM

Double post but I wanted to answer some previous ones without messing with my data post.

Originally Posted by Astrylian

"If I set "Powershifting" to every cycle, my dps is 1374. If I set "Powershifting" to none, my dps is 1289. Just to give you an idea how huge the 100dps loss from replacing Cursed Vision is."

That's the important part. The difference between Powershifting (40 energy) and not (~5 energy) is under a hundred dps. Bumping that up to 60 energy would be ~50dps. So there's have to be less than 50dps difference between the stats on wolfshead and the stats on CVoS, which there definitely is more of.

Part of why I think it might improve is because you can actually change your cycle to account for the extra energy that otherwise wouldn't be fully useable except in a I have 5combo points and am going to cap energy situation. The cycle I proposed has 2 shifts per cycle instead of 1 so an additional 80 energy while only wasting 14 of it. In my standard cycle you waste 11 so the net energy gain is ~75 or so considering you don't get the full 20 when shifting. I'd have to think a little more on 2 powershifting cycle without the Wolfshead.

Originally Posted by Allev

The powershift rotation that's optimal with that helm is shifting every single time it's possible. Essentially-- is your energy too low to attack? If yes, powershift. It'll always be a huge energy gain, thus a DPS gain.

The helm would essentially eliminate the need for a finding an optimal cycle-- you are essentially mana-bound rather than energy-bound. You'll be pushing your shifting to the upper bounds of your mana pool.

While essentially true it's the same situation of an arcane mage spamming Arcane Blast but with a much higher mana cost and smaller mana pool. You also want to minimize the amount of energy wasted or else you are defeating the point of wearing the Wolfshead in the first place.

Astrylian · 05/08/08, 10:58 PM

Originally Posted by Krazen

I am getting some confusing results from rawr.

Looking over the versions of [Band of the Swift Paw] in Rawr: cat, the bracers do significantly worse socketed for agility, rather than socketed for defense. So, I'll just ask:

Are [Swiftstrike Bracers] worth using for cat dps? I'll be spending close to 1000g for them if I make them, so I'd expect them to be on par with the Teron/Rage bracers, which i could buy for ~1500g.

You need a the def gem to meet your meta requirements. Socketing for agi, you lose the meta. Swiftstrike aren't terrible, but S3 are better, and easier to obtain.

Ledneh · 05/08/08, 11:28 PM

(see my armory for reference, this should be my bear gear)

Here's something I'm wondering about. I have an excess of badges, so I'm thinking of buying [Embrace of Everlasting Prowess] to replace my [Vengeful Gladiator's Dragonhide Tunic] for tanking. In theory I gain about 1000 armor and 1.5% dodge, and lose about 50 health. Great upgrade, except for one thing: I suddenly lose crit immunity, to the tune of 12 resilience short if I enchant for +15 resilience, 27 with +6 stats.

I can fix this by using a Steady Seaspray Emerald for the chest gem, enchanting +15 resilience, and changing my cloak from 12 agility to 12 defense, BUT that would reduce my dodge gain. OR I can leave the cloak as is, enchant +6 stats on the chest (and gem with, oh, whatever the +5agi +7sta gem is), and use an Elixir of Ironskin all the time. I was thinking I'd just skip the Ironskin for trash to save gold (woohoo I got crit by trash! oh noes!) and use it for bosses. Great for farm content, but lousy expensive for progression, since I can't flask.

So I guess I'm gonna ask for an opinion: is this a good idea? Do any of you other bears do this sort of thing, and find it tolerable? Or do you find it too expensive to maintain? Or is there some other reason it's a bad idea?

Astrylian · 05/08/08, 11:36 PM

I Ironskin for progression, they're worth it IMO. Not that expensive.

Mijae · 05/09/08, 1:40 AM

In an unlimited rage situation Maul will make up roughly 55% of total threat. As others have stated, expertise gives the largest increase followed by hit rating. While I generally hate to use AEP, here is approximate values for my current MT gear (5t6):

Expertise - 6.58
Hit Rating - 3.34
Strength - 2.00
Haste Rating - 1.79
Agility - 1.69
Crit Rating - 1.49
Attack Power - 1.00
Armor Penetration - 0.31

*fine print* Of course, these values vary depending on set totals.

Falk · 05/09/08, 1:59 AM

Originally Posted by Daboran

Not to mention that if you stack classes for Muru, it's unlikely you will have a Feral present for the drop at all.

Considering the need for as much DPS a raid can crank out in P2 vs 3+ tanks in P1...

We'll see as more killshots come in, I guess. I'll admit I was pretty disheartened when SK-Gaming's raid makeup for world first became known.

Daboran · 05/09/08, 3:50 AM

Originally Posted by Falk

Considering the need for as much DPS a raid can crank out in P2 vs 3+ tanks in P1...

We'll see as more killshots come in, I guess. I'll admit I was pretty disheartened when SK-Gaming's raid makeup for world first became known.

Yeh, current guild issues will probably slow our progress so I'm unlikely to see Muru soon, but I'm assuming that the dps requirement isn't as urgent as the tanking advantages of a Warrior. It's all speculation though until I see the fight for myself.

Vaccine · 05/09/08, 4:27 AM

Originally Posted by Daboran

Not to mention that if you stack classes for Muru, it's unlikely you will have a Feral present for the drop at all.

Ferals are still excellent offtanks there, the only thing we can't do is the Sentinels where good old Spell Reflect is required. Not made it to phase two yet but I definately don't feel like a dead weight in P1.

Duilliath · 05/09/08, 6:13 AM

Wouldn't worry about Mu'ru.

2nd and 3rd kill both had 3 druids in it (2 feral, 1 resto). One of those guilds apparently even is looking for a Feral druid.

Daboran · 05/09/08, 7:49 AM

Ok, I'm happier now....

On that theme though, Sunwell may be well designed and challenging for progression guilds but it's pretty unfriendly to everyone else in some respects. We did most of TBC until now with 2 Ferals, 2 Restos on every boss and it didn't really affect our chances of beating an encounter.

Tuning in Sunwell is so much tighter that anything less than optimal composition can severely affect your chances. It's the first time we've been forced to kick people out of boss fights in favour of an equally good, but more optimal class, especially healing and (hello Shaman!).

♦ Regen · 05/09/08, 9:10 AM

Originally Posted by Daboran

Ok, I'm happier now....

On that theme though, Sunwell may be well designed and challenging for progression guilds but it's pretty unfriendly to everyone else in some respects. We did most of TBC until now with 2 Ferals, 2 Restos on every boss and it didn't really affect our chances of beating an encounter.

Tuning in Sunwell is so much tighter that anything less than optimal composition can severely affect your chances. It's the first time we've been forced to kick people out of boss fights in favour of an equally good, but more optimal class, especially healing and (hello Shaman!).

This is common initially in all end-game high level content, but with gear and experience requirements slowly go down.
I'm sure Fathom lord initially seemed impossible to do with only 3 people in the raid capable of tanking, but with BT level gear tanking the hunter+pet+shaman really isn't out of the ordinary. Same goes for council (despite the fight being moderately easy), I'm willing to bet an extra healer or two was brought to the first kill compared to what any guild brings on a regular basis.

I am already starting to see a larger margin of error in Kalecgos/Brutallus

Spookeh · 05/09/08, 9:29 AM

re: Wolfshead Helm, something along these lines could be spammed for mana-dump nuking?
means you don't get any benefit from 2T4 so you could stop using it.

/castsequence [reset=12] Mangle(cat)(rank 3), Shred, !Cat Form, Shred, !Cat Form, Shred, !Cat Form, Shred, !Cat Form, Shred, !Cat Form, Rip

Allev · 05/09/08, 9:38 AM

Originally Posted by Ledneh

So I guess I'm gonna ask for an opinion: is this a good idea? Do any of you other bears do this sort of thing, and find it tolerable? Or do you find it too expensive to maintain? Or is there some other reason it's a bad idea?

I maintain a couple of gear swaps for ironskinned tanking and non-ironskinned tanking. [Cloak of Blade Turning], [Timelapse Shard], or a piece of PVP gear will all suffice.

I recommend planning your maxed-out gearset around the ironskin, and then figure out a separate trash set (if you have no other options, just keep using your PVP chest). If you can afford not to get consumable'd up, you can also probably afford to make a gear swap or two.