In this case I would definitely go for [Gloves of the Searing Grip] as well. They may be slightly worse or just equal than [Gloves of Dexterous Manipulation], however there is more to them than just theorycrafted DPS values. Searing Grips give you more survivability with more Sta/AC and they actually smoothen out your DPS cycles by reducing dodges. I think the last part is not given enough value by most people but I doubt I am the only one that messes up Powershifts just because the mob dodged your Rip or proceed to Mangle/Shred just because you realized too late that your Rip from before didn't connect, effectively wasting DPS. So unless we are all robots, this is something worth considering for sure.

I use the pants and shoulders for T4 2pc atm. Yeah my current armory is pvp (BG) gear, and it's not really ideal at that, heh. My arena points are reserved for resto set (and the S3 staff after.) Just transferred servers so I don't have a solid arena team yet.

I'm using the helm off netherspite and the chest off nightbane right now, 2800AP/36%crit/122hit unbuffed. It's not very good but I'm stuck in full t4 for tanking so I can't socket/enchant for cat yet.

edit: Thanks for the advice, I'm definately holding on to the Searing's until patch.

Is it just me or is [Belt of Deep Shadow] one of the best cat DPS belts available after 2.3? Don Alejandro's and One-Hundred Deaths are better, but considering this is a BoE craftable from SSC/TK not relying on drop-luck, I'd say it's pretty damn nice.

Yeah, the short answer is yes. If your rogues all have theirs and there are nethers spare then I'd go for it for sure. The primal requirements are not too bad either, just 10 primal air and 10 primal shadow. Airs are expensive but not *too* bad to farm, and shadow are pretty easy come easy go. I'm getting one made up at the monent that will probably get socketed with full +hit gems.

It's ~6% dodge and ~12% parry. I'd like to see a setup that isn't stupid that actually has that much expertise - it's just not feasible to get that much as a druid with relatively good gear in other slots, in comparison to Hit which it's pretty easy to get over the cap. You would need 16*6 = 96 expertise rating to get dodge capped. Shapeshifters Signet is 20, Searing Grip is 18, One Hundred Deaths is 25, Shoulderpads of the Stranger are 10, Earthwarden is 24, and the Brooch of Deftness is 21. That's a maximum of 118 expertise rating, taken from the WoWhead list of epics with expertise (new in the burning crusade) that's wearable as a druid. It's a pretty select set of gear, to say the least, and certainly not the setup I'd pick for DPSing, even though I agree with Liar that hit and expertise have a slightly more profound effect on personal DPS compared to that given on spreadsheets (also part of the reason I prefer 4t6 over 2t4).

Yes, Deep Shadow is probably the third best in slot after than Don Alejandro's/One Hundred Deaths (as long as you aren't hit capped).

Just found this spreadsheet and have been messing around with it, it seems like a great tool to have. Firstly thank you, secondly there is a couple of things I'd like to discuss/comment on.

I did not see an option for [Nyn'jah's Tabi Boots] would it be possible to have it added? Both [Leggings of Murderous Intent] and [Shady Dealer's Pantaloons] are coming out as less dps for me then [Skulker's Greaves]. This is slightly different to Toskk which ranks both of them higher in the 5000ap 50% crit region. I picked up the Kael legs last night and was considering them for 2.3 when my gear will be pretty much rebuilt with the addition of the new heroic badge items and s3. Anyone care to comment on these leg choices and whether you consider them an upgrade from skulkers or not. Finally when I combine the total hit and miss % it comes nearer the 8.6% mark then the 9% mark I had become familiar with, does this have much impact on the spreadsheet?

[edit]added them as per the instructions[/edit]

I am starting to believe that being hit capped is more important then t4 2pc set bonus.

I've done a couple of tests with different sets of gear on two raid bosses, which are Leo and Lurker.


Week 1: T4 helm + T4 shoulders + T4 legs + T5 gloves + [Shadowprowler's Chestguard] with 80 hit rating, had 10.2% miss on melee attacks
Week 2: T4 helm + [Midnight Legguards] + [Chestguard of the Conniver] + [Shoulderpads of the Stranger], around 128 hit rating I only had 6.3% miss on melee attacks

I don't see how it's good to stack ap/crit or 2pc set bonus gear if you are not hit capped? I've been using msbt scrolling text mod, and it's really interesting to see how often you miss when dpsing with 84 hit rating and over 130 hit rating, and WWS reports proved it to me over the two weeks. Also, don't you think hit rating is important?

Personally, I would rather hit two shreds for say 2.5k- to 3k then miss two and hope I get lucky with t4 2pc set bonus procs, any one agree?

Monstor-- your post proves that when you have more hit rating, you hit more. It offers no comparison of hit rating to 2t4.

Perhaps you could link the WWS parses so we could see the results of your overall DPS.

Also remember that you don't need to get "lucky" with 2t4 for it to be massively better. If you miss a shred, you only lose 8 energy, not 42. Only finishers lose all their energy when they miss.

Your choices of gear change your hit rating by 31, which would take you from 80 to 111, not 128. Perhaps you're omitting the fact that you have your Stranger shoulders with a DPS enchant on them. The [Shoulderpads of the Stranger] have no hit rating on them (and no expertise until next patch). You could get 2t4 in your claim above without lowering your hit rating simply by putting back on your T4 shoulders and enchanting them for DPS.

Of course it would be better to hit two Shreds rather than miss two, but with a difference of a 3.9% for your "to hit", you would have to attack with 50 Shreds before you would miss (on average) 2 of them which you wouldn't have missed anyway. Given all of the white attacks happening in there along with your specials, that's going to likely equate to more than a few procs of the 2T4 set bonus.

Hit rating is not that important for normal specials. The reason is because you always get a refund of all but 8 energy for them. That means you have to miss 42/8 = 5.25 shreds before you've actually lost one full shreds worth of damage. For finishers it's different as you lose all the energy, but you don't do as many rips as you do other special attacks. This whole topic was discussed a lot in the "value of +hit" thread (see the useful links in the first post, it will probably be quite enlightening if you haven't ever read it, even if you just skip through it).

And yes, as Allev pointed out you could easily use T4 shoulders with the helm and keep your pieces with +hit on. If you put pure agility gems in they're virtually equal anyway (30 AP more on Malorne compared to the 16 crit rating on Stranger - I'd take the Malorne until 2.3, unless you've gemmed them differently obviously).

[Mantle of Malorne]
[Shoulderpads of the Stranger]

Alright well as it stands now I have very little +hit and basically just stacked strength through gems/enchants. (The World of Warcraft Armory) (Shifting - WWS)

For 2.3 I plan on maxing hit first before anything else (through gear alone hopefully) Currently this is the gear I'm going to be aiming for any thoughts?
[Vengeful Gladiator's Dragonhide Helm]
[Worgen Claw Necklace]
[Mantle of Malorne]
[Razor-Scale Battlecloak]
[Vengeful Gladiator's Dragonhide Tunic]
[Master Assassin Wristwraps]
[Gauntlets of Malorne]
[Waistguard of the Great Beast]
[Nordrassil Feral-Kilt]
[Nyn'jah's Tabi Boots]
[Ring of Lethality]
[Ancestral Ring of Conquest]
[Tsunami Talisman]
[Dragonspine Trophy]

[Vengeful Gladiator's Staff]
[Item not found!]

The S3 bracers, as it stands, are better than the Master Assassin's Wristwraps (though they may get nerfed meaning the Master Assassin ones will be better then). Also, the heroic badge legs are superior to the T5 legs for pure DPS (and Skulker's Greaves are better than both). Also, the Belt of Deep Shadow is better than the heroic badge belt by a little bit. Otherwise it looks pretty solid.

Feral Druid DPS 1.1.4

-Updated the sheet to include the [Nyn'jah's Tabi Boots].
-Fixed SOTF adjusting Base stats
-Added Tauren Racial Bonus to HP (need a Tauren Druid to check those values for accuracy)
-Sorted the Lists of gear
-Fixed a few minor math errors
-Changed Dodge Calculation and included the talent Feral Swiftness
-Added the framework for Armor and Crit reduction calculations. (For calculating Offtank/DPS sets)
-Changed Feral Skill to Expertise and re-did math to match that (somebody please double check this) (UnbuffedDPS and BuffedDPS Sheets for the math on that)


--The gear that is currently selected generates the Highest DPS I was able to find just messing around. It may not be the absolute theoretical max DPS, but it should be fairly close to what is possible for a straight Tank and Spank fight.

The other way to look at + hit and specials is that every missed shred costs you 8 energy. Considering that BT ferals tend towards energy/damage ratios of 50 or more, that's 400+ damage lost per miss.

In addition to misses futzing up rip cycles, or causing you to miss a tick or two because mangle just refuses to land.

I really like hit. I also really like expertise, but remember that expertise is BETTER than hit for most DW classes, since hit only helps their white dps after 9% but expertise applies to both. So warriors, rogues, and shamen want those expertise pieces more than you. Interestingly, it's easier to rack up expertise while leveling in outlands as a feral than it is as a rogue. It isn't until SSC that it changes appreciably. Expertise is amazingly, awesomely good for leveling.

And TWO WHOLE DAYS later I find out that the Shadowmaster's Boots I got are likely to be outperformed by a heroic badge item. I swear ... I could have sworn those boots weren't that good when I first looked at them.

That's not a very analytical way to look at it at all. You need to analyse whether overall you gain or lose damage trading your AP and Crit for Hit or Expertise. That's the only metric that counts. Yes, sometimes you'll lose damage from a Rip missing a tick or mangle not being up during a Rip, but the impact of those are calculable on a statistical level. The way gear is currently itemised, a true statistical analysis will tend to show that somewhere near the hit cap and a small amount of expertise, both coming naturally from the right items do just as much or more than trying to get to the point of absolutely no misses at all.

If you are referring to [Nyn'jah's Tabi Boots] being better than [Shadowmaster's Boots], I think that is not true. The T6 item provides a small dps upgrade over the badge item and nearly double the health of the badge item if you make a number of different gear choices along the way. Also, Voldin's base spreadsheet starts with the assumption that you are using the Stormrage Signet Ring and does not include the Exalted dps version of the Band of Eternity. Choosing the Band of Eternity (exalted version) means you can choose the Choker of Endless Nightmares over Telonicus' Pendant of Mayhem, Shadowmaster's Boots over Nyn'jah's Tabi Boots, Insidious Bands over Vindicator's Dragonhide Bracers and Madness of the Betrayer over Dragonspine Trophy for an overall buffed dps increase of 2.91. Which really just stresses how important the overall effect of your gear is compared to just picking whichever items are individually the best.

I am trying to make a list of 'must have' when 2.3 hits, let me know what you think.


[Idol of Terror] x 20 Badges
[Nyn'jah's Tabi Boots] x 60 Badges - Awesome upgrade over edgewalker's for dps
[Band of the Swift Paw] x35 - Best tanking bracers

Not sure
[Master Assassin Wristwraps] x 35 - How do these compare with other bracers for raid dps?
[Vestments of Hibernation] x 75 badges - I don't think this is worth it over the shadowprower chesguard because of no sockets or hit, even though it's barely better.
[Waistguard of the Great Beast] x60 badges - Seems pretty good, but I am not sure either this or belt of deep shadows.

Idol, yes.
Nyn'jah's, yes if you're not on T6 to pick up Shadowmaster's.
Band of the Swift Paw, yes if you're not armor capped.

Finally, the DPS bracer comparison:
[Master Assassin Wristwraps] vs [Vambraces of Ending] vs [Insidious Bands] vs [Vindicator's Dragonhide Bracers].

I'd put them as Insidious, Vindicator's, Master Assassin, Vambraces for pure DPS; although I'll probably get Vindicator's and wear those for a long, long time.

[Insidious Bands] are amazing, but I won't have access to them for a while, Kael's gonna take us 3-4 weeks I am guessing. I might as well save the badges and get those, since all of the rogues will get BT leather over me like always

Sigh. Stupid forums ate all my math.
Idol = great.
Boots = great.
Bracers = search my posts in this thread, 4 or 5 pages back I did the math and to me at least proved S3 was a better upgrade than this so long as you needed the resilience. There are plenty of slots I'd much rather have pure tanking items than resilience items so it makes sense to use S3 bracers.

Wrists:
Vambraces:
(32x1x1.1x1.03x1.1)+(52x1.1)=97.08 AP
32/25 = 1.4% crit

Shard bound
(28x1x1.1x1.03x1.1)+(42x1.1)=81.1 AP
28/25=1.12%

Master Ass
(25x1x1.1x1.03x1.1)+(50x1.1)=86.16 AP
(25/25)+(18/22.1)=1.81%

S3 PvP Bracers
(22x2x1.1x1.03x1.1)+(30x1x1.1x1.03x1.1)=92.23 AP
(30/25)+(21/22.1)= 2.15% crit

So you get .69% crit and 5.06ap going from shard bound to master assasains which is a pretty solid upgrade.
Going from Vambraces to Master assasain you drop 10.92ap and pick up .41% crit. Fairly debatable whether its worth it but definately a small ugprade going to Master Assasain.
Edit:
Had forgotten the pvp bracers. They edge out master assasains by a fair bit. As they aren't unique I'll buy a set for dps and a set for tanking/pvp.


[Vestments of Hibernation]
I don't really rate this as an upgrade to shadowprowlers, especially with the FCR change meaning I now need even more hit. I don't know how to model armour penetration as it changes on a per mob basis.

Unless I'm drastically under rating the 150 armour pen I really wouldn't ugprade from shadowprowlers to this. That said its a nice stop gap between Heavy Clefthoof and T4 for tanking.


[Waistguard of the Great Beast]
Great Beast:
(29x2x1.1x1.03x1.1)+(44x1x1.1x1.03x1.1)=127.12 AP
44/25=1.76% crit
18 hit (dunno how to work out hit but they both have same so cancel each other out)

Deep Shadow:
(48x1x1.1x1.03x1.1)+(66x1.1)= 132.4224 AP
48/25 = 1.92% crit

So they are pretty similar, deep shadow having 5 APish more and .16% crit more but the beast has 16 more stamina and bonus armour facilitating cat and bear form fights better than the extra dodge of deep shadow.

For such a low price of 20 badges I will definately get this and let someone else take vortexes. Not to mention the 5-700g depending on server prices you would save on the other mats.


Hope that helped.

Edit: Had forgotten pvp bracers in dps comparison.

Thanks for the info, Vaccine!

I don't know about other ferals in BT but that 100 armor on them is a big deal. I am trying to shuffle some new stuff in to allow me to use pieces with lower armor in those slots. For example, [Pepe's Shroud of Pacification]

Just remember the PvP bracers are likely going to be nerfed at some point and will probably fall below the Badge bracers in terms of DPS. I probably wouldnt waste badges on the belt either since both belts from SSC are better for their respective jobs and are relatively easy to obtain. Now I suppose if vortexes are tight in your guild or you've stopped running SSC/TK it might make sense to get.

The heroic badge chest piece just seems subpar to me. The S3 gladiator chest is far better for dps (as is shadowprowlers) and the tier pieces are quite a bit better for tanking.