Feral Megathread - Page 240

kalbear · 05/11/08, 4:35 PM

At level 70, it takes 2.36 defense rating to equal one defense skill point. Each point of defense above the cap reduces your chance to be crit by .04%.

I have had a problem with keeping myself over the 2.6 uncrit cap.

The easiest way to do it is with resilience. I would recommend the glyph of the gladiator, which is great for bears. I prefer the vindicator's dragonhide bracers + footwraps of wild encroachment to the band of the swift paw + veteran's leather boots, but it's up to you. Another source is a steelweave enchant to the cloak. I hate doing it, but it's better than the alternative is sometimes.

Astrylian · 05/11/08, 8:46 PM

Beta 14 posted!

DOWNLOAD: Rawr - Release: Rawr b14

Beta 14:
- Added the ProtWarr and Healadin models! These are our first versions of these models, so please report any bugs you find with them!
- Mac support! See the readme for details.
- Major improvements to the intelligence of the Optimizer
- Added a new feature in the Optimizer: Build Upgrade List. This feature will take longer than the normal Optimizer (so you'll want to run it at a lower thoroughness, most likely), but will produce a chart of how much value you could gain if you had each item that you don't already have available.
- Added a Direct Upgrades chart, which shows what the biggest upgrades for you would be, considering just direct upgrades, no other gear swaps. For a comprehensive upgrades evaluation, use the new Build Upgrade List feature of the optimizer.
- Significantly improved performance all across Rawr, especially in the Optimizer
- Added a Delete Duplicates function. By right clicking on an item or using the Item Editor, you can Delete Duplicates for an item, which will delete all gemmings of the item except for the one you selected, and any that are equipped.
- Reworked how Rawr stores calculation options. This means that when you load your characters created with previous versions of Rawr, the Options tab will be reset to default, please be sure to fill that out again.
- Rawr now correctly handles mainhand and offhand enchants, as appropriate by equipped items.
- Improved the loading performance of the Item Editor on successive loads. The first time you open it, it should be faster than before, and the second+ time should be nearly instant.
- Fixed a bug that made the Fill Sockets functionality of the Item Editor not work.
- Fixed a bug that made the chart render as a big red X occasionally.
- Made some changes that may help with the UI for users of high-DPI resolutions. High DPI is still not supported (as Windows' support for it is retard and broken), but this should help somewhat.
- Fixed a leak of control handles in the item selector, should improve performance and prevent crashes related to this.
- Fixed the Armor Penetration values of Imp/Expose Armor.
- Reloading the current character from the armory will now load enchants and talents, in addition to items.
- The Item Selector should no longer extend off the screen when there's room available, on very low resolution displays.
- Added support for loading characters from KR and TW realms.
- Load Upgrades from Armory will no longer create duplicates.
- Added some warnings to the Optimizer to help people use it properly (such as pointing out when you've forgotten to mark any choices in a slot as available). These can be disabled in the Options.
- Rawr.Bear changes:
- - Added Threat rating
- - Made the Defense Rating to Defense Skill conversion stepwise, so that partial Defense Skill don't count. Adjusted the amount needed to be uncrittable to match (previously, Rawr.Bear may have told you that you'd need 1def rating more than you really did, that's fixed by this).
- - Added several new relevant buffs and debuffs
- Rawr.Cat changes:
- - Made the calculations of the SSO Exalted Scryer neck accurate.
- - Added a Survivability rating
- - Added several new relevant buffs and debuffs

ramenchef · 05/11/08, 9:49 PM

The optimizer is acting a bit strange. I set crazy about threat in the options and the optimizer still chose a set without 4 piece t6. Same with optimizing for dps. I had everything checked, but wanted to ignore t4 and it gave me only 2 t6 as the "best" set even though I easily editted the gear to have 4 t6 and have a higher dps rating. I chose to optimize by overall in tank and by dps in dps.

Astrylian · 05/11/08, 9:49 PM

Please send bug reports about Rawr to me (see my profile), or post them in the Rawr thread. Any discussion about the theorycraft Rawr uses is fine (I think) to be here, just not bug reports and such.

ramenchef · 05/11/08, 10:03 PM

What is your email again? Also, ranged weapons are showing up in ranged for bears and cats.

Astrylian · 05/11/08, 10:08 PM

Delete me.

Kaubel · 05/12/08, 7:59 AM

Rawr has its own thread, so stop shitting up this one with stuff that should be discussed there or sent via private messages.

blackmatt · 05/12/08, 11:17 AM

I saw a post on the WoW Druid forums yesterday that kind of intrigued me.

A druid was insisting that stacking armor pen and agi/crit and then using Bite over Rip gave him/her a large increase in dps. I'm hoping he'll link a WWS to look at showing some kind of data to back that up, but since it's just some idiot on the WoW forums I'm not holding my breath.

Now I know that the standard dps rotation is mangle, shred to 4/5, rip, with shifts in basically any time you have < 10 energy, but the idea of a more consistent powershifting rotation kind of piqued my curiousity. My thinking is that since each rotation starts with 0 energy, you can get a much simpler powershifting rotation like: shift, mangle, (tick), shred, shift, (tick), shred, (tick), bite, repeat, with another shred any time you get a clearcasting proc and altering the rotation so as not to mangle before the debuff wears off. Obviously you'd have to chain mana pots to keep up a two shift per cycle rotation, and if you didn't crit at least 2 attacks you'd have to shred again to bite at five points, possibly wasting combo points if you crit on your last shred. But it made me curious as to whether making powershifting simpler and lessening your chance to waste energy with an ill-timed shift can make up for the smaller damage per energy of biting instead of ripping.

So my question is: has anybody ever worked out just how much armor pen and crit chance (obviously assuming 4 piece tier 6 and 5/5 Feral Aggression) you would need to make bite end up being even close to rip? Just doing napkin math it seems like it's not possible, but sometimes I like to look at crazy ideas like this and see them through. I'm just not good enough at theorycraft to come up with my own model.

And please don't flame me too much for even thinking that bite could come close to rip. For some reason this idea just stuck in my head.

♦ Regen · 05/12/08, 12:22 PM

Originally Posted by blackmatt

I saw a post on the WoW Druid forums yesterday that kind of intrigued me.

A druid was insisting that stacking armor pen and agi/crit and then using Bite over Rip gave him/her a large increase in dps. I'm hoping he'll link a WWS to look at showing some kind of data to back that up, but since it's just some idiot on the WoW forums I'm not holding my breath.

Now I know that the standard dps rotation is mangle, shred to 4/5, rip, with shifts in basically any time you have < 10 energy, but the idea of a more consistent powershifting rotation kind of piqued my curiousity. My thinking is that since each rotation starts with 0 energy, you can get a much simpler powershifting rotation like: shift, mangle, (tick), shred, shift, (tick), shred, (tick), bite, repeat, with another shred any time you get a clearcasting proc and altering the rotation so as not to mangle before the debuff wears off. Obviously you'd have to chain mana pots to keep up a two shift per cycle rotation, and if you didn't crit at least 2 attacks you'd have to shred again to bite at five points, possibly wasting combo points if you crit on your last shred. But it made me curious as to whether making powershifting simpler and lessening your chance to waste energy with an ill-timed shift can make up for the smaller damage per energy of biting instead of ripping.

So my question is: has anybody ever worked out just how much armor pen and crit chance (obviously assuming 4 piece tier 6 and 5/5 Feral Aggression) you would need to make bite end up being even close to rip? Just doing napkin math it seems like it's not possible, but sometimes I like to look at crazy ideas like this and see them through. I'm just not good enough at theorycraft to come up with my own model.

And please don't flame me too much for even thinking that bite could come close to rip. For some reason this idea just stuck in my head.

A few concerns that come to mind are being able to be to fb around 35 energy as soon as you get 5cp, and the extra 5 talent points which would mean no thick hide I suppose.

Just off the top of my head since last nights WWS isn't up I believe I recall riping for around 771 which means 4626 total, now clearly for FB to even be viable it needs to non-crit for around lets say 4k. I recall a FB crit just short of 7k on ROS phase 1 (Zero Armor, perfect example). So 2.13 crit modifer brings 7k to 3286 apply Feral Aggression = 3800.

Fairly close. So lets assume 50% crit (Am normally higher -- 8/8 T6). (3800 + 8100*new FA crit*) / 2 = 5950, roughly 6k.

I can see it as possible, but again mainly from the top of my head of values I can remember from last night.

Mijae · 05/12/08, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by blackmatt

I saw a post on the WoW Druid forums yesterday that kind of intrigued me.

A druid was insisting that stacking armor pen and agi/crit and then using Bite over Rip gave him/her a large increase in dps. I'm hoping he'll link a WWS to look at showing some kind of data to back that up, but since it's just some idiot on the WoW forums I'm not holding my breath.

How is stacking agi/crit different than any other druid? It's well known that agility is the best possible stat for us.

5 CP Rip:
Damage mult = 1.3 (mangle)
Base damage = 1553 * 1.3
AP mult = AP * 0.24 * 1.3 = AP * 0.312

5 CP FB:
Extra energy = 4.1 * (energy - 35)
Damage mult = [crit%*2*RED*PI + (1-crit%)] * 1.15 (FA) * (1-armor)
Base damage ~ 947 * damage mult
AP mult = AP * 0.15 * damage mult

With 1k ArP, fully debuffed (+4k ArP) on a low armor boss (6200) like Gorefiend, damage reduction is approx 10%.
For 100% crit and 20% armor, AP mult = AP * 0.312
For 90% crit and 15% armor, AP mult = AP * 0.313
For 80% crit and 10% armor, AP mult = AP * 0.312
For 65% crit and 0 armor, AP mult = AP * 0.314

You also need to consider the lost damage efficiency of extra energy in FB too, unless you always powershift immediately after.

Above values are just the approximate break-even points as well.

lairpie · 05/12/08, 12:48 PM

Don't forget to account for damage lost from using mana pots rather than haste pots.

♦ Regen · 05/12/08, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by lairpie

Don't forget to account for damage lost from using mana pots rather than haste pots.

Why would FB'ing over Rip cause significant mana loss to the point you needed to mana pot?

Schnigges · 05/12/08, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by Regen

Why would FB'ing over Rip cause significant mana loss to the point you needed to mana pot?

Theoretically you're not limited to a 12 second cycle anymore so you can shift to build your 5cps faster. With Rip there's a limit to shredding over your 5cps.

Astrylian · 05/12/08, 1:05 PM

Also, Rip has the full scaling from AP at 4cp AND 5cp, whereas FB has it only at 5cp, so you'd need to get to 5cp every time, never stop at 4, which means wasting a cp ~half the time.

lairpie · 05/12/08, 1:23 PM

Yeah, the whole idea of this theory to be proven or disproven is that you could:

-Power shift essentially as often as possible, burning through mana faster and also keeping you inside the five second rule almost all the time, effectively cutting your far from insignificant mana regen down to almost 0 mana regen. In a 12 second cycle with 1 shift, you spend 7 seconds getting mana back from spirit. If you shifted every 5 seconds you'd be getting 0 mana regen from spirit, just blessing of wisdom, which you'd only have if you had 4 palys, or sufficient tank threat to not need salvation.
-Chug mana pots to make up for that huge mana drain. Probably use mageblood as a guardian elixir too.
-Build CPs faster, meaning that at the very least you'd alternate FB and rip, possibly just drop rip entirely. With enough gear / buffs / power shifting, you could probably get a 5 point FB off and still get back to 4/5 CPs to do a rip not long after it expired. That's essentially the same idea behind sword rogues rotating between rupture and SnD, attempting to keep both up all the time.