Feral Megathread - Page 241

Tirok · 05/12/08, 5:50 PM

For some time I've thought that the defense cap was 412, but today I heard it was 415. Which is it?

Thanahtos · 05/12/08, 5:55 PM

Originally Posted by Tirok

For some time I've thought that the defense cap was 412, but today I heard it was 415. Which is it?

415

Nandini · 05/12/08, 6:43 PM

I'm considering writing a post for the Blizzard suggestions forum. I know it's pretty rare for suggestions to actually be implemented, but I'd like some feedback from the druid commuity before I make the post there. I know there are people here with a lot more experience than I have, so I hope to get some more good rationale points and potential drawbacks to add.

The change I'm suggesting would primarily impact feral druids, but potentially also retribution paladins and enhancement shamans.

Current behavior:
Swapping an item into a character's relic slot during combat resets that character's melee swing timer.

Desired behavior:
Swapping an item into a character's relic slot during combat does not reset that character's melee swing timer.

Rationale:
There are no known relics that impact weapon speed or melee haste. Swapping weapons in the main-hand slot (and off-hand slot for dual wielders) obviously must reset the melee swing timers. This case is not obvious for relics and logically should not apply.

Relic swapping favors caster/healer talent specs over melee specs. While swapping relics in combat does instantiate a new global cooldown, it only does so if one is not already active. This allows players to begin casting a (non-instant) spell and equip a relic that improves that spell before the spell cast completes. This is most beneficial with spells whose cast times are considerably longer than the current global cooldown (as modified by spell haste). The net effect is typically an increase in damage per second or healing per second for these players.

The opposite is true for melee dps talent specs. Although it is still possible to swap in a relic after an ability is used but before the attack is processed on the server, the player will "lose" on average half of a melee autoattack every time the swap is made. The net effect is typically a decrease in damage per second for these players. In fact, the more attack power and critical strike chance a player has, the more a player has to lose by delaying the next auttoattack.

Potential confounding factors:
The equipment slot used for relics on the druid, shaman, and paladin classes is used for ranged weapons on every other class. Those ranged weapons have their own separate attack speeds. Swapping in a different ranged weapon while in combat necessitates resetting the ranged attack timer. If swapping relics and ranged weapons is handled by the same code, developers might declare it too burdensome to create separate code for relic swapping which does not reset the melee swing timer.

Torpesh · 05/12/08, 8:26 PM

Originally Posted by Nandini

Rationale:
There are no known relics that impact weapon speed or melee haste. Swapping weapons in the main-hand slot (and off-hand slot for dual wielders) obviously must reset the melee swing timers. This case is not obvious for relics and logically should not apply.

I'm not sure what you mean by "logically" should not apply. Are you saying that from a "realistic" standpoint, since you aren't swapping an item in one of your hands that it shouldn't affect your swing? If that's the case, how are you swapping it if you aren't using either of your hands? For that matter, how am I changing any equipment when I'm in the form of a cat? Trying to make a fantasy game "realistic" is usually a silly prospect at best.

Originally Posted by Nandini

Relic swapping favors caster/healer talent specs over melee specs. While swapping relics in combat does instantiate a new global cooldown, it only does so if one is not already active. This allows players to begin casting a (non-instant) spell and equip a relic that improves that spell before the spell cast completes. This is most beneficial with spells whose cast times are considerably longer than the current global cooldown (as modified by spell haste). The net effect is typically an increase in damage per second or healing per second for these players.

The opposite is true for melee dps talent specs. Although it is still possible to swap in a relic after an ability is used but before the attack is processed on the server, the player will "lose" on average half of a melee autoattack every time the swap is made. The net effect is typically a decrease in damage per second for these players. In fact, the more attack power and critical strike chance a player has, the more a player has to lose by delaying the next auttoattack.

This may all be true, but there are mechanics of the game that are positive or negative for every class/spec/DPS type, etc. If there is an imbalance between classes or combat types (such as ranged vs. melee) then that makes for a good argument for changing a game mechanic. What you're pointing out is a game mechanic which favors one combat type over another but doesn't necessarily make an overall imbalance. All just my opinion here, but I don't think it's likely to sway the developers unless you can point out that this mechanic causes a wider imbalance and that changing the mechanic would correct that imbalance.

For the record, if you want to try to convince them that every boss fight shouldn't involve close range AoE damage and running in and out of melee range then you have my full support

coldbear · 05/12/08, 9:00 PM

Hi. Bit of a semi-noob here.

Just got back into raiding a few weeks ago after about a year off. New guild, I'm just getting used to raid dpsing and raid tanking occasionally.

I apologize if this is the wrong thread to post one of these new-fangled WWS reports, but I'm really only very interested in my own performance at this point, since half the other raiders way outgear me, and the other half are new apps or alts. If you frown on seeing WWS reports in this thread, please just delete this post or tell me to piss off.

Gruul kill (2nd try): Wow Web Stats

Specific questions:
1. Is there a place/guide I can go for help on how to dissect my performance via WWS? I keep googling 'feral druid WWS guide' and getting not much at all. The official druid forum didn't help much, or maybe I just found the wrong thread.
2. I dps'ed most of the fight in tanking gear since I had a hunch one of the tanks would eat it. Hunch turned out right, and I managed to hold aggro pretty good for a bit, didn't really know whether to run out or not during the whatchamacallems (Shatter?), then died and watched a very close kill. So - messy fight with tons of new people but at least my own performance should be critiquable. Skill rotations wrong? Not enough + to Hit?
3. My armoury profile lies as I travel in crap pvp gear. After that Gruul iirc I finally got 2t4 and have noticed it cutting down on my powershifting needs. A lot of my gear could be better gemmed. If there's something specific about my AP or Agi I'd love to hear.
4. WWS doesn't track Rebirth? I coulda sworn I battlerezzed Vaelia - the shaman. Only reason I remember is b/c I was told to Brez someone else and got the groups mixed up in Grid.

Nandini · 05/12/08, 9:08 PM

Originally Posted by Torpesh

I'm not sure what you mean by "logically" should not apply.

By "logically" I meant that it is logical that swapping a weapon must reset the melee swing timer because of the probability of the new weapon having a different attack speed. Swapping a relic (idol) never affects attack speed. (Unfortunately, even the weapon swapping "logic" argument sort of breaks down for feral druids, since the weapon's own speed doesn't affect the speed of our paws, though it might have a haste enchant that does.)

Perhaps a better argument in my second rationale would be, "Since swapping an item in a relic slot does not reset the global cooldown if one is already in progress, it should similarly not reset the melee swing timer if one is already in progress."

I realize that this sort of change is unlikely to happen, so I will cheerfully open my umbrella and prepare for plenty of rain on my parade.

Edit: It's not necessariliy my intent to show a large imbalance by suggesting this, only to show a potentially unintentional imbalance on the part of developers that could be corrected. I.e., did developers intend to allow this advantage for relic swapping with non-instant cast spells? Perhaps they also intended some advantage for relics that impact melee dps as well.

I would wager that very few Blizzard testers have experimented with relic swapping in-combat as much as players on this forum have. It's possible they are completely unaware of the swing timer reset and its implications for melee dps.

I've made one previous suggestion that was actually implemented in-game. (That was rewriting the druid stance bar to allow direct form-to-form shifting in patch 2.3 when the /cancelform command was processed client-side.) That additional (and non-trivial) code change was not originally planned for patch 2.3, so I hope with your help, the kinds of logical arguments I provided in that situation might have a similar impact with this suggestion.

Mijae · 05/12/08, 9:37 PM

Originally Posted by Nandini

By "logically" I meant that it is logical that swapping a weapon must reset the melee swing timer because of the probability of the new weapon having a different attack speed. Swapping a relic (idol) never affects attack speed. (Unfortunately, even the weapon swapping "logic" argument sort of breaks down for feral druids, since the weapon's own speed doesn't affect the speed of our paws, though it might have a haste enchant that does.)

There's nothing stopping them from adding an idol in the future that does add haste though. Just because it does not exist now does not mean it never will. They do not restrict the type of stats that can potentially be added to any item by slot.

Nandini · 05/12/08, 9:53 PM

Originally Posted by Mijae

There's nothing stopping them from adding an idol in the future that does add haste though. Just because it does not exist now does not mean it never will. They do not restrict the type of stats that can potentially be added to any item by slot.

That's a good point. Currently relics add hidden auras which impact some aspect of a specific class ability. However, if a relic were to add an aura that impacts melee haste (for example, a shaman totem that adds additional haste rating to the Bloodlust or Heroism ability), I don't imagine there would be a need to reset the melee swing timer for that, either. That kind of takes all the rationale out of my first argument.

Many people speculate that the Inscription profession in WotLK will operate in a manner very similar to how relics work today. Imagine each character of every class getting a certain number of slots for "permanently equipped relics." When that time comes, our idols may just become (pardon the pun) a relic of the past and be replaced by some new kind of stat stick for druids, shamans, and paldins.

Perhaps I will hold off on this suggestion until it becomes clear how the interaction of inscriptions and relics behaves in WotLK. I'm sure Blizzard doesn't have spare developer resources right now, so my timing is bad anyway.

Torpesh · 05/12/08, 10:03 PM

Originally Posted by Nandini

Edit: It's not necessariliy my intent to show a large imbalance by suggesting this, only to show a potentially unintentional imbalance on the part of developers that could be corrected. I.e., did developers intend to allow this advantage for relic swapping with non-instant cast spells? Perhaps they also intended some advantage for relics that impact melee dps as well.

That makes for a decent argument

windcape · 05/12/08, 11:00 PM

Simple question, does Expertise affect Taunt (Growl) ? or is it only hit rating.

I got a good bunch of both, but preparing for Brutallus I'm researching what is most important.
What confuses me is that Taunt is resisted? or missed?

Hit food could actually be considerable.

Astrylian · 05/12/08, 11:47 PM

Brut has a 1% taunt resist chance. I wouldn't worry about it.

Malazaar · 05/13/08, 2:31 AM

Expertise does not affect Growl, only hit does (have you ever had your Growl parried ?).

Benita · 05/13/08, 3:43 AM

Originally Posted by Nandini

I would wager that very few Blizzard testers have experimented with relic swapping in-combat as much as players on this forum have. It's possible they are completely unaware of the swing timer reset and its implications for melee dps.

It also might be the case that relic swapping is only tolerated at the moment, because it's impact is rather small. I doubt it will get an implemented feature, but rather restricted if they have to start to balance around it.

mesmashgnome · 05/13/08, 5:32 AM

Originally Posted by dukes

The Cat post.
Trinkets
The main options for trinkets are (listed top to bottom in approximate order of goodness):
[Living Root of the Wildheart] - Bad. Very bad for where it is. Not even really worth it if you're going to be in bear form half the time really (which is very few fights anyway).
[Ashtongue Talisman of Equilibrium] - Quite good, but not quite as good as some of the other trinkets. There's been a lot of discussion in the past about it, because it depends on how much/when you mangle as to how effective it is. Because of the standard DPS cycle meaning that it's not possible to have it active when you're about to rip, it loses some of it's effectiveness. It's still alright trinket though, but probably not one of the best.
[Hourglass of the Unraveller] - A very good trinket for where you get it. ((proc = 45 second cooldown, 10% chance))
[Bloodlust Brooch] - Easy-ish to get and very effective. ((2 minute cooldown))
[Darkmoon Card: Crusade] - Quite hard to get, but also quite good once you get it. How good it is depends on fight more than anything (lots of movement = bad).
[Crystalforged Trinket] - One of the best trinkets to get, and very easy to get too. ((1 minute cooldown))
[Tsunami Talisman] - Upgraded version of the Hourglass. Not much more to say.
[Berserker's Call] - Upgraded version of the Bloodlust Brooch.
[Shard of Contempt] - Very nice for the Expertise available - proc is similar to Tsunami Talisman.
[Madness of the Betrayer] - Hard to get but very good, as long as you aren't hit capped. ((not sure on proc rate))
[Dragonspine Trophy] - Apparently still the best around, even after all the nerfs. Be warned that you may recieve some skepticism from other physical DPS classes if you express an interest in it.

To dukes and everyone else who has a good ideea about trinkets.
When you first made this list probably the new jc trinkets weren't available. Can please tell where in this list will stay Figurine - Shadowsong Panther??
Thank you for the answer and a very nice made thread.

PS: if this question was asked before i'm sorry but there are 145 pages of answers...long way to go.

Pizoi · 05/13/08, 6:04 AM

JC trinket is a bit better than Bloodlust Brooch, and a bit worse than Berserker's Call. Average attack power assuming you use it every cooldown goes: 118.33 for Brooch, 133.33 for Shadowsong, 150 for Berserker's.