Feral Megathread - Page 279

monster · 06/18/08, 9:52 AM

Originally Posted by Valerian

Helm/Shoulders/Gloves are the slots you can generally afford to swap in for T4 or T6 pieces. The chest and legs are just so good from sunwell its extremely hard to swap these in. The helm is also very good but its from Kiljaeden and by that time you should probably be getting rid of the T4 pieces anyways.

I do not use 2pc T4, actually I stopped using it a while back when I got 4pc T6 before Sunwell was out. I'll grab with what ever comes around for dps upgrade but I am not too concerned about my dps gear because I don't get invited to come and dps on a boss, tanking is pretty much my primary job almost every raid night.

Also, for the person that needed help with Kalecgos.
- Commucation is the key with your raid (tanks/healers)
- Call out before you taunt and make sure you have your healers down there or you will get gibbed instantly.
- Hit helps a lot, one of the tanks had two taunt resist last night and it screwed up the portal rotation because there was no tank down at the bottom.
- Expertise also helps, threat can be an issue and it hurts missing two mangle openers at start.
- Before you taunt the demon, call it out 'Tauting in 3' and use FAP > Nightmare Seed (Sp?) > Barskin > Growl
- Keep an eye for Corrupting Strike, you usually wana taunt after he does Corrupting Strike on the previous tank or the NPC and taunt right away.

/cast Barskin
/use Nightmare Seed
/use Free Action Potion

It helps a lot but it also depends on how solid your healers are, usually I don't have to use this macro.

Inz · 06/18/08, 11:39 AM

Originally Posted by CD

This shows ~1780 tps excluding the fire bloom damage.
I think it is really interesting to use cat gear and get useful group buffs and have such high average mangles/ mauls yet not swipe once.

This TPS value is of Omen and could ofc be wrong, but a rogue doing 3116 dps without using Vanish and with 1780 tps isnt right either ?

I could be wrong if i dont put Swipe into the cycle but this always worked perfectly fine on single targets.

Immortal · 06/18/08, 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by Inz

This TPS value is of Omen and could ofc be wrong, but a rogue doing 3116 dps without using Vanish and with 1780 tps isnt right either ?

I could be wrong if i dont put Swipe into the cycle but this always worked perfectly fine on single targets.

If you take in account salvation and rogue's passive 29% threat reduction he's doing 1549 tps with this dps, so it's all ok with him not using vanish.

mutagen · 06/18/08, 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by Inz

This TPS value is of Omen and could ofc be wrong, but a rogue doing 3116 dps without using Vanish and with 1780 tps isnt right either ?

Rogues have a 0.71 passive threat multiplier, add Salvation and you have 0.71 * 0.7 * 3116 = 1549 TPS.

I don't think Omen is wrong so much as it displays a running average that tends to show memorable spikes. Has anyone compared output from the Sustained TPS Addon to the values these threat calculators give?

Inz · 06/18/08, 12:13 PM

Well it makes sense with that TPS i agree, but no havent checked with other addons.

Could also be that the current version of Omen i used at that time was a bit off.

EDIT: gona try the SustainedTps addon and see what i get.

Garanthir · 06/18/08, 1:55 PM

Originally Posted by droeber

Kind of a silly thing, but I found it helps me a lot if we put raid markers over the tank healers heads on Kalecgos, that way I can see if there is one down there before I taunt.

Deadly Boss Mods has a portal add on that shows who is in your realm. I am usually the tank who takes the 1st portal. I make sure at least two healers are in the Demon realm, wait for a CS on Human Kalec, and then announce my taunt.

coredumperror · 06/18/08, 3:44 PM

I want to revisit the Swipe vs. Lacerate question. I recently did some math based on my WWS report here: WWS Loading...

It's anecdotal, and not a terribly large sample size, but since I'm trying to figure out my personal best TPS choice, it's good enough.

Here's what I came up with as the optimal "keep lacerate rolling" vs "just use swipe" cycle math:

My boss tanking set has 38% crit, so...

With a cycle of (after 5 lacerate stacks): Mangle -> Lacerate -> Swipe x2 -> Mangle -> Swipe x2 -> Lacerate -> Mangle -> Swipe x3, repeat
cycle time 18 seconds. Lacerate hits every 9 seconds, consistently across cycles

Lacerate:
avg dd = 58 normal 139 crit. 58*.63 + 139*.37 = 88 avg dd every 9 seconds = 88/9 = ~10 TPS
dot ticks for 420 avg every 3 seconds = 420*.2 / 3 = ~28 TPS
7 swipes in 18 seconds = 7 * 280 norm 630 crit = 7 * (280*.62 + 630*.37) / 18 = ~158 TPS

total TPS: 10 + 28 + 158 = 196 TPS
total DPS: 420/3 + 88/9 + 158 = 307 DPS

Swipe:
9 swipes every 18 seconds = 9 * 280 norm 630 crit = 9 * (280*.62 + 630*.37) / 18 = 203 TPS

total TPS: 203
total DPS: 203

Getting 5 stacks of Lacerate going:
Cycle: Mangle -> Lacerate x3 -> Mangle -> Lacerate x2 -> Swipe, then start the normal 18 sec cycle
this is 12 seconds
5 lacerates at 88 avg dd over 12 seconds = 5*88 / 12 = ~37 TPS
dot will tick for 2 stacks the first time, 3 stacks second, and 5 stacks third: (2/5*420 + 3/5*420 + 420)*.2 / 12 = 14 TPS
1 swipe in 12 seconds = (280*.62 + 630*.37) / 12 = ~34 TPS

total TPS for the first 12 seconds: 37 + 14 + 34 = 85 TPS
total lost threat for doing stacking cycle instead of just swiping = ~120*12 = 1440

The TPS difference between 280 dmg non-crit swipes and lacerate is very small. Small enough that the bonus DPS of weaving Lacerate into my cycle offsets the minor TPS loss. Unfortunately, I'm terrible at turning anecdotal evidence into useful rules like the one we've got posted on the main page (but later today I'll try figuring it out). However, my evidence tends to make me think that the 30% crit, 225 dmg swipe rule is rather undervaluing lacerate threat, so I wanted to post to see if the people who are actually good at math could come up with a more accurate rule.

Adobi · 06/18/08, 5:09 PM

I'm pretty sure the 230 30% crit rule was before the buff to lacerate. It's harder to calculate now since ap will increase both swipe and lacerate damage.
What I go by now is putting lacerate up if I know it will stay up. On fights like Kalecgos and Brutallus I don't use it since it will only be up about a minute on each. On twins I would use it if it wasnt for the tick giving me aggro back right after a confounding blow, when i really just want to run away 10 yards and reset fire debuff.
On M'uru I don't use it for the obvious reason of there being 3 mobs to tank.

So even though this might be borderline useless post, I think my conclusion is that when you have gear good enough for swipe to out-threat lacerate, you will be doing fights where swipe is more beneficial anyway.

Mijae · 06/18/08, 6:34 PM

Originally Posted by coredumperror

I want to revisit the Swipe vs. Lacerate question ...

Many of your numbers are wrong here. You forgot to include the static 285 threat to Lacerate. The crit percentages are changing throughout your calculations as well. Your crit chance also seems quite low.. is that with no buffs or are you using your WWS number for Lacerate? Note your Swipe crits were 50%. Crit chance can greatly affect the numbers since it favors Swipe. I'm also not sure why you chose to Lacerate every 9 seconds. If it's in case of misses you'll need to models those as well since a missed Lacerate is one less Swipe, not one less Lacerate.

Regardless, I'm not quite sure what you're discussion is here. There definitely is a point where spamming Swipe starts to beat spamming Lacerate (generally around 4t6). However, after you reach that point it is best to still Lacerate enough to only keep the DoT up and Swipe in between. Are you contesting either of these points?

The arguments of when to Swipe only mainly fall into the last category when you were trying to calculate the difference when building the initial stack. The more often you need to re-start the stack the worse it becomes. The other issue is if your raid is filling up all the debuff slots. So, in practice, it depends on the fight mechanics and raid composition.

Promethius · 06/18/08, 7:23 PM

One thing missing in that analysis is the effect of hit and expertise. Due to the general lack of hit and expertise on tanking gear that isn't threat focused and how specials are based on the 2-roll system, your crit rates are going to be significantly lower. Due to the DoT nature of lacerate, so long as you can react to it after a miss/dodge/parry and not let it fall, lack of hit/expertise doesn't hurt as badly as it does swipe. I suppose that's a little confusing to say unless you look at it in terms of threat per global cooldown. It's relatively common knowledge that spacing lacerates as much as possible without losing the stacks is optimal, so what I mean is that while a swipe miss is all threat lost for that gcd, a lacerate miss, but refreshed within time limits, actually slightly increases the threat per gcd of the prior lacerate.

Assuming lacerates have already been stacked:
Threat/gcd lacerate @ 9 sec refresh = 285 + 0.2(88 + 3*420) = 554.6
Threat/gcd lacerate @ 12 sec refresh = 285 + 0.2(88 + 4*420) = 638.6
Threat/gcd swipe = 280*.62 + 630*.37 = 406.7

This actually undervalues lacerate by assuming 0 crits and overvalues swipe by assuming hit/expertise cap. If you actually only land 80% of attempted abilities, swipe threat drops to about 325.6. There's also the factor of not being hit/expertise capped affecting mangle uptime, which in turn affects lacerate threat somewhat, but I haven't thought about mangle uptime in relation to hit/expertise in all that much depth and simply make the assumption that uptime is roughly equal to the percentage of landed mangles as given by my WWS.

My personal TPS rotation when I'm not using a lot of hit/expertise on single targets would be mangle, lacerate, 2x swipe, and only going to using mangle, 2x swipe, lacerate when lacerate didn't land the first time. i.e. mangle, lacerate (miss), swipe, [use 2nd cycle] lacerate, mangle, swipe, swipe, lacerate, mangle, swipe, swipe, lacerate (miss), mangle, [first cycle] lacerate, swipe, swipe, etc. That uses a mixture of threat per global cooldown of lacerate refreshed at 6 and 9 sec opposed to at 9 and 12 sec, but I find it generally keeps lacerate stacks up better when I'm not using a lot of hit/expertise since missing twice is still recoverable from.

All in all though, this just reinforces the swipe when mangle is on cooldown and you don't need to lacerate to refresh concept.

Howardmeis · 06/19/08, 2:11 AM

I have a friend who's a druid who 2 times this week now has been 1 shot by bosses (Mag and Jan'Alai). I'm thinking he has undercapped defense now and is critable. He has 400 defense and 54 resil. Is that enough to be uncritable or not?

Neone · 06/19/08, 2:20 AM

Originally Posted by Howardmeis

I have a friend who's a druid who 2 times this week now has been 1 shot by bosses (Mag and Jan'Alai). I'm thinking he has undercapped defense now and is critable. He has 400 defense and 54 resil. Is that enough to be uncritable or not?

short answer: yes

long answer: read the first post

Howardmeis · 06/19/08, 2:25 AM

Yea, I tried to do some math and confused myself on it. I can see that he's a bit behind in defense, and I'm not sur eif the 54 resil is enough to make up for that 15 defense. Roughly how much resil is 1 defense?

Nisall · 06/19/08, 2:36 AM

Originally Posted by Howardmeis

Yea, I tried to do some math and confused myself on it. I can see that he's a bit behind in defense, and I'm not sur eif the 54 resil is enough to make up for that 15 defense. Roughly how much resil is 1 defense?

Lazy.....

Originally Posted by Neone

long answer: read the first post

From the first post

Mitigation Stats
Stats and what they give you. Brackets are raid buffed values while the normal ones are unbuffed. All values are assuming HoTW and SoTF. All values are per 1 point of stat.

Agility = ~0.07% ((~14.7 agility per % dodge, or ~13 agility on gear per %dodge with
SotF and BoK)) Same crit conversion as for Cat form Grace of Air is
77 agility (90 improved) which comes out as approximately 6% dodge (7%
improved) in a raid environment

Dodge Rating = ~0.05% ((18.9 dodge rating per % dodge))

Stamina = 15.45 health (17hp/point)

Defence = 2.4 rating per skill, 1 skill = 0.04% dodge, miss, anti-crit ((25 defence,
or 60 rating, for 1% less crit/more dodge/more miss))

Resillience = ~0.025% anti-crit ((39.4 resillience for 1% less crit and 1% less damage
from DOTs))

Armour = 35880 armour to be capped at 75% reduction versus level 73 mobs.

The main priorities as a bear are to get un-crittable (for which you need 2.6% anti-crit), get decent amounts of health and armour and, if in an OT or hybrid role, stack agility. 2.6% anti-crit is 156 defence rating (415 defence total) (155 will not do, although the character screen will inform you that you have 2.6% less chance to be crit (415 defence)!) or 103 resillience. You can mix and match, but make sure you check afterwards that you have a total that comes out to more than 2.6% to be safe. Remember that although you need more defence, you do get some avoidance out of it so it's not always most worth getting pure resillience.

If you want to skip a point in SotF, you need 1% more crit immunity to make up for it (39.4 resillience or 25 defence (60 defence rating)). To get to the full cap (i.e. no points in SotF) you need 221 resillience or 140 defence (336 defence rating) in total.

Howardmeis · 06/19/08, 2:42 AM

I'm sorry but I don't see a "1 defense=X resil" on that....