When I'm not trying to keep a stealther down, is FFF even really worth wasting a GCD on while DPSing or while tanking after the pull? Is the damage increase at all significant? I've never noticed it, but then I don't tend to look at long-term trends.
You're bound to have downtime in there somewhere, no reason to Not cast it. In cat anyway. If the debuff doesn't stack with Sunder Armor as previously posted, then I wouldn't bother using it in Bear form.
Well, FFF is equal to a raidwide 610 armor penetration debuff (which is a really significant debuff). Keeping it up would result in a significant increase in damage. If you're DPSing in cat form, you have GCDs to spare, so you should definitely keep it up. When tanking, if you're in a situation where TPS really matters right now, I'd probably leave it off until you've got enough of a threat lead that you can spare the GCD.
But all of this is based on the assumption that FFF stacks with sunder armor, and there are reports in the Druid forum that FFF does not stack with sunder armor. Do the Gods of testing have any data on this?
Well, FFF is equal to a raidwide 610 armor penetration debuff (which is a really significant debuff). Keeping it up would result in a significant increase in damage. If you're DPSing in cat form, you have GCDs to spare, so you should definitely keep it up. When tanking, if you're in a situation where TPS really matters right now, I'd probably leave it off until you've got enough of a threat lead that you can spare the GCD.
But all of this is based on the assumption that FFF stacks with sunder armor, and there are reports in the Druid forum that FFF does not stack with sunder armor. Do the Gods of testing have any data on this?
95% of the time you can throw Faerie Fire up on the pull(when you are tanking) giving you plenty of time to establish, and dominate, initial threat. After the first, you can throw it when you are low on rage, or just when you are confident on threat. Faerie Fire really helps your threat, especially with expose or sunders up and CoR.
For Voldin's spreadsheet:
- Bosses don't have a dodge value in J19 of the unbuffed and buffed DPS sheets. That value, while not yet determined, is probably close to 5.6% that you have for non-finishers.
- Primal Man-Catcher now has 49 AGI instead of 49 STR.
- 9% base miss rather than 8.64%.
For Voldin's spreadsheet:
- Bosses don't have a dodge value in J19 of the unbuffed and buffed DPS sheets. That value, while not yet determined, is probably close to 5.6% that you have for non-finishers.
- Primal Man-Catcher now has 49 AGI instead of 49 STR.
- 9% base miss rather than 8.64%.
Fixed those issues and corrected the display of the ferocious bite damage on the "main" sheet.
Cheers again for the update Voldin. I noticed that i get an increase in dps when switching an 8agi gem to a 4agi/4hit gem or an 8agi gem to an 8hit gem below the hit cap. Effectively saying that 1hit > 1agi below the hit cap. This may go someway to explaining the high weighting noticed on skulker's greaves compared to the Kael legs and Azgalor legs. This is new to me though compared to the Mijae's spreadsheet posted above and the Toskk methodology where agi is valued as greater then hit. I was wondering what was the reason for this? Is is accurate? Do you perhaps have a factor there to deal with a miss screwing up a cycle or such? Also I was wondering could a temporary weapon enchant be added similar to Mijae's sheet and also the ring enchants please?
Between the 2 spreadsheets also with the same gear I noticed a rather large dps discrepancy approximately 250 dps I was wondering what the reason for this is and again which is more accurate?
Between the 2 spreadsheets also with the same gear I noticed a rather large dps discrepancy approximately 250 dps I was wondering what the reason for this is and again which is more accurate?
You need to enable "5 Man" drops on the right side for the Hourglass. I have not dug very deeply into Voldin's modelling yet. I try to verify my calculations against WWS meters and seems to be fairly accurate.
Also, Lolaan and Tangedyn DPS models have been re-enabled and updated for expertise. Note - these are slightly modifed from their available versions. I believe mine takes many more factors into concideration. For example, Tangedyn's online calculator does not reduce damage for mob armor.
Ok, its common knowledge that getting to the armor cap isn't too difficult once you have access to T4 gear. Those of you that are seeing T5 and T6 drops, have you thought of dropping Thick Hide and reallocating those points elsewhere? Even just pulling 1 point out of Thick Hide for a 3%(?) loss in armor.
Last edited by YagerMyster : 11/11/07 at 2:22 AM.
Reason: further thoughts
I can't really say why my sheet values hit higher than some of the other sheets out there. I am not familiar enough with how everyone else is modeling this stuff to know what would be different.
As for differences between sheets, I can only say that my sheet has tons of buffs that you can select (or not) that can have a very large impact on your DPS. Double check to make sure all the buffs are the same.
Band of the Eternal champion isn't in there because I have no idea how to model it at this point. When I have more time, I'll try to get it worked in.
Ok, its common knowledge that getting to the armor cap isn't too difficult once you have access to T4 gear. Those of you that are seeing T5 and T6 drops, have you thought of dropping Thick Hide and reallocating those points elsewhere? Even just pulling 1 point out of Thick Hide for a 3%(?) loss in armor.
Actually, it's not possible to hit the armor cap in T4 without relying on buffs like Inspiration. In T5 you can hit it with Devotion Aura (maybe barely with some new 2.3 loot). At the T6 level, you are better off switching to lower armor items with higher stats than dropping Thick Hide.
Ok, its common knowledge that getting to the armor cap isn't too difficult once you have access to T4 gear. Those of you that are seeing T5 and T6 drops, have you thought of dropping Thick Hide and reallocating those points elsewhere? Even just pulling 1 point out of Thick Hide for a 3%(?) loss in armor.
What would you put the point(s) into otherwise? In my raid spec, I can get everything I want and have one point left over that I put into either Intensity or Primal Tenacity - neither of which I think are necessary for feral. I'd consider swapping out some armor pieces before removing points in thick hide - Supremus ring comes to mind, but a lower armor cape, wrist or belt would probably work well too.
Between the 2 spreadsheets also with the same gear I noticed a rather large dps discrepancy approximately 250 dps I was wondering what the reason for this is and again which is more accurate?
Voldin, I've been analyzing your spreadsheet and looking at adding it as an optional model. However, I have found a few problems that could account for at least a portion of the DPS differences. It looks like the base damage and multipliers for your Rip damage do not follow the standard values. You're applying the Mangle buff to Rip twice. The miss and dodge calculations do not match between melee attacks and specials and expertise is not applied correctly. These are a few I've found, but only looking at the Buffed Cycles. It also looks like some of the talent point numbers were deleted on the "Races" sheet and broke validation lists.
I have a small request for both Mijae and Voldin: Would it be possible to split out loot that you buy with Badges of Justice from loot that actually drops in Heroics? I'd love to have seperate toggles for these.
Has anyone written a combat simulator to determine feral DPS? I tried searching for one and didn't come up with anything. I've been thinking of creating one, but I don't want to do a lot of work if it's already been done.
Has anyone written a combat simulator to determine feral DPS? I tried searching for one and didn't come up with anything. I've been thinking of creating one, but I don't want to do a lot of work if it's already been done.
Voldin, I've been analyzing your spreadsheet and looking at adding it as an optional model. However, I have found a few problems that could account for at least a portion of the DPS differences. It looks like the base damage and multipliers for your Rip damage do not follow the standard values. You're applying the Mangle buff to Rip twice. The miss and dodge calculations do not match between melee attacks and specials and expertise is not applied correctly. These are a few I've found, but only looking at the Buffed Cycles. It also looks like some of the talent point numbers were deleted on the "Races" sheet and broke validation lists.
I got my Rip numbers from my own in game testing, and worked backwards from there by removing multipliers like Naturalist to get a base value. I have long since deleted the #'s from those tests, but if anybody has any data I could use to double check, I'd be happy to run through that exercise again.
Nice catch on the Double Mangle Buff, I fixed that one already. I'm going to take some time to make a few cosmetic improvements also. I should have the changes done shortly.
Very exhaustive threads about feral dps, thanks, but I'm still interested about feral tanking and the new expertise: since a high-level feral tank has only one valuable item increasing expertise ( Brooch of Deftness - Items - World of Warcraft ), is still worth wearing that neck despite the fact we cant cumulate expertise due the lack of item with it (warriors got more high-lvl expertise items)?
i.e.
11/09/07, 3:45 PM
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