Feral Megathread - Page 288

Inaiwae · 07/02/08, 2:46 AM

Originally Posted by kalbear

The [Thunderheart Wristguards] are good, but they're not stellar. I'd much rather have the guardian's bracers + a trinket of my choosing (badge/commendation under many circumstances, badge/moroes/shadowmoon under others) than I would the thunderheart + be forced to elixir/shadowmoon. It's just not flexible enough. And it costs quite a bit.

I dont see what you mean by being forced to use elixir of ironskin. It is the best consumable option for given slot, so i see nothing wrong with being forced to use it.

If you mean that you have to use it for farm bosses / trash as well, then i think its not a problem to downgrade your gear a bit and use e.g. shadowmoon insignia or pvp bracers to stay crit immune without the elixir.

kalbear · 07/02/08, 3:20 AM

Yeah, that's exactly what I mean - that you would have to use some other set of gear for farming or require a trinket use. Which I guess isn't that big a deal, but it's something. Depends on how close to the 30 resilience you are; if that takes you far over, the pvp bracers are fine. If not, you'll have to use like a VG head to make up the difference, and that can hurt.

I'd also disagree that ironskin is better than fort as an elixir goes. Heck, earthen elixir is better a lot of the time. It really depends on what you're getting out of it. The [Guardian's Dragonhide Bracers] aren't that different than the [Thunderheart Wristguards]; what you lose is mostly armor, which is not a huge concern at that gear level. In this case you're losing 30 armor, 9 stam, 3 agi, 3 str for 20 resilience and 24 crit rating. Assuming elixirs, that means you're trading 6 stam, 30 armor, 3 agi and 3 str for 24 crit rating and 250 health or the ability to go 500 health and save a lot of wiping cost. Or 18 stam, agi and str and 35 resist all, I suppose. To me, being able to use whichever elixir is worth losing that bracer cost.

And a lot of times I'd much rather have the pvp bracers + any trinket + elixir of fort over thunderheart + shadowmoon insignia/elixir of ironskin if I'm going the elixir route.

Yaelle · 07/02/08, 4:32 AM

I'm one of two Feral Druids in our raid, we both have a different gear approach, but both setups did work for Brutallus and in the end we had very similar overall stats although a lot of slots are different.

I use the PvP bracers to stay crit immune while he worked his way around the bracers in order to use [Thunderheart Wristguards]. So I agree that both approaches very well work.

Never the less, I alway considered the T6 bracers to be a sidegrade (less armor than [Band of the Swift Paw] while also not contributing to crit immunity). Therefore I included them in my Cat DPS-set and stayed with the PvP bracers for tanking.

Inaiwae · 07/02/08, 6:22 AM

I went through the theory of elixirs / flask recently, here are the results (forgive stating the obvious, it was originally intended for non-druids as an overview).

Assumption: it is possible with your best gear to be at crit immunity border when using elixir of ironskin (so the resilience is not wasted).

Elixir of Major Agility (35 agi, 20 crit rating) ~= 2.4% dodge, 0.9% crit
Elixir of Ironskin (30 resilience) = -0.75% to be critted. Comparing it to a Major fortitude elixir (250hp), which equals about 16 stamina, Ironskin is 3x better when it comes to itembudget. It enables to sub some suboptimal pieces of equipment that has defense on it for equipment without defense, same goes for enchants and gems.

Itempoints of elixirs: 85
Itempoints of their defensive part: 65
Alternative: Flask of Fortification (500hp, 10 defense). 500 hp = cca 32 stamina. Itempoints of flask: cca 32.

Meaning elixirs have approximately twice as many points in defense then flasks and above that boost threat as well.

An example of the difference according to a simulator. Total mitigation/effective health (physical dmg) raid buffed. This is set to work in a fight like Brutallus.
Elixirs + stam food: 84.2% / 86 300 (mitigation/effective health*)
Flask + stam food: 83.5% / 86 140 (regemmed 15 stam --> 10 def)
unbuffed: 83% / 83100 (regemmed 15 stam --> 10 def)

*effective health = how much damage unmitigated you survive without a heal = armor + hp, total mitigation is armor + dodge

Said differently, out of 100k dmg taken (unmitigated), you'll receive:
unbuffed - 17000
Flask - 16500 (cca 4% difference against unbuffed)
elixirs - 15800 (cca 7% difference against unbuffed)

Gear used in this simulation:
6/8 T6 (wrists) with 15 resilience on chest, 12 defense on wrists, glyph of the gladiator.
[Brooch of Deftness]
[Slikk's Cloak of Placation]
[Belt of Natural Power]
[Treads of the Den Mother]
[Ring of the Stalwart Protector]
[Violet Signet of the Great Protector]
[Commendation of Kael'thas]
[Badge of Tenacity]
[Wildfury Greatstaff]
[Idol of Terror]

Since this is my Brutallus tank gear, i had to replace the belt with cat belt in Rawr otherwise the changes in gear allowed by elixir of ironskin (e.g. armor on the badge ring) wouldnt be reflected properly in the overall mitigation.

About the costs: i think at this level the costs of the elixirs are not a problem. On progress content, you want the best you can get. On farm content, you dont die so the costs are minimal. I havent used a flask for a very long time now.

TimWischmeier · 07/02/08, 7:43 AM

Originally Posted by Inaiwae

Since this is my Brutallus tank gear, i had to replace the belt with cat belt in Rawr otherwise the changes in gear allowed by elixir of ironskin (e.g. armor on the badge ring) wouldnt be reflected properly in the overall mitigation.

If you mean you're at/over the armor cap and you want to figure out what value additional armor has, you can check the Stomp debuff dealt by Brutallus. You can find it under the options pane in rawr.

stauros · 07/02/08, 8:41 AM

I've not used Elixir of Major Fortitude for probably 5 months, I would guess. The flexibility you gain in the rest of your gear to gain more dodge by using an Ironskin instead is superior from what I've seen to the benefit of using an elixir of major fortitude and wearing another piece with defense/resilience on it.

iamrelevart · 07/02/08, 10:18 AM

Hi. I've been perusing this thread and I have been improving my powershifting, but I'm running into a big problem breaking 800dps. I was ~790 dps last night on Aran with a SoE totem and an Elixir of Greater Agility added to buffs. There was also a hunter in my group with ferocious inspiration. No sunders on Aran, but I kept FF up at all times. I was the only feral druid in the group.

I was a noob and logged out in my pvp gear, but a link to my profile (I'll log out in my dps gear when I get home.)
Relevart's Armory

My dps cycle is Mangle -> Shred ->Shred ->Powershift -> Shred ->Rip -> Powershift

I didn't log my combat log (stupid) or I would post some type of link to it.

Any suggestions or pointers? I just feel like my gear is not THAT bad.

Slots that differ from my pvp stuff:
Shoulders - Malorne
Boots - Edgewalker Longboots
Ring 1 - Adal's Command
Trinket 1 - Bloodlust Brooch
Trinket 2 - Berserker's Call

Zeln · 07/02/08, 10:25 AM

Originally Posted by iamrelevart

Any suggestions or pointers?

Don't use a fight against a mob with weird aggro rules to measure your dps? Maiden is about the only fight in that instance that you can really measure your dps. Nightbane maybe.

Bashui · 07/02/08, 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by iamrelevart

Hi. I've been perusing this thread and I have been improving my powershifting, but I'm running into a big problem breaking 800dps. I was ~790 dps last night on Aran with a SoE totem and an Elixir of Greater Agility added to buffs. There was also a hunter in my group with ferocious inspiration. No sunders on Aran, but I kept FF up at all times. I was the only feral druid in the group.

I was a noob and logged out in my pvp gear, but a link to my profile (I'll log out in my dps gear when I get home.)
Relevart's Armory

My dps cycle is Mangle -> Shred ->Shred ->Powershift -> Shred ->Rip -> Powershift

I didn't log my combat log (stupid) or I would post some type of link to it.

Any suggestions or pointers? I just feel like my gear is not THAT bad.

Slots that differ from my pvp stuff:
Shoulders - Malorne
Boots - Edgewalker Longboots
Ring 1 - Adal's Command
Trinket 1 - Bloodlust Brooch
Trinket 2 - Berserker's Call

Rawr puts you at about 930 in perfect conditions. With Aran, you have to run out a lot, can get stuck in a flame wreath away from him, and he is constantly spinning around so you can't just shred away, so I don't think you are doing too bad given your gear.

If you really want to do good dps, you need to start splitting your gear, and getting DPS specific pieces with dps enchants.

Also, you really don't want to powershift after a Rip. You want to wait to Rip until you have at least enough energy to Rip then mangle immediately (otherwise your first rip tick will be unmangled).

Valerian · 07/02/08, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by iamrelevart

My dps cycle is Mangle -> Shred ->Shred ->Powershift -> Shred ->Rip -> Powershift

Your DPS cycle should be a set of rules rather than a fixed thing due to the fact you do not crit 100% of the time (or 0% of the time) and unless you are hit and expertise capped you will have some avoided attacks as well.

Besides the first set of attacks you should be shredding until 4 or 5 combo points. Then you should let your energy regen so that you can rip and then immediately mangle. Then repeat the shredding until 4-5 combo points.

You aim for 4 combo points and if you happen to crit at 3 to get 5 all the better. The only time you're going to actively go for the 5 combo points is if you still have a rip ticking and your energy is going to start getting lost due to it going over 100.

Powershifting results in a net energy gain if you powershift immediately after the GCD is up AND you have less than 30 energy. In practice powershifting at that high a level of energy will be extremely mana inefficient so its probably best to aim for it when you're below 10 or so mana. This threshold can increase if you have a lot of mana and/or the fight is short.

Finally, as was mentioned Aran isn't a great fight to test your DPS on. The fact that he's turning around all the time can make getting shreds off pretty annoying (or downright impossible for the most part if you're topping the threat list). For lower content DPS tests, Morogrim or VR are probably the easiest tank and spank fights from Melee's POV.

unitsinc · 07/02/08, 11:10 AM

I was wondering what most druids are doing in Sunwell when tanking different encounters and upgrading gear.

Pre-sunwell I used the [Vindicator's Dragonhide Bracers], along with the [Shadowmoon Insignia], [Violet Signet of the Great Protector], [A'dal's Signet of Defense], [Slikk's Cloak of Placation], and [Pendant of Titans].

Those I felt were all pretty obvious choices. This kept me from ever needing to gem/enchant for resil or defense for crit immunity.

When tanking Kalecgos(and demon) I actually started using [Brooch of Deftness] and [Boots of Natural Grace] for less taunt resists and more overall threat. Since I lose some defense from swapping necks, I just tossed a 10 Defense gem into my chest (replacing a 5 agi/5hit) and I was good to go...

But, on to my actual dilema. My guild and I downed Kalecgos last week for the first time. I would be the first person on the Vanq token to get it when it drops. If I use the T6 bracers over the pvp bracers(now s4 bracers) I lose crit immunity. Do most people just enchant/gem for defense/resil and suck it up? Also, from what I've gathered, most players tend to go with [Badge of Tenacity] and [Commendation of Kael'thas] for tanking Brutallus. If I do that, it leaves me crittable by quite a lot(even more if I usethe T6 bracers when I get them). Requiring me to change even more gemming/chanting for just one specific fight. I actually just re-gemed my shoulders with another 10 defense and my chest with a 5def/7stam so now I am uncrittable without using the Shadowmoon Insignia. That solves the problem until I get T6 bracers.

A few posts up someone mentioned that they used their pvp bracers for "farm" bosses and only tossed on their T6 bracers for new bosses, along with popping [Elixir of Ironskin]. Is this what most druids do? Or do you just put another defense/resil gem/chant on your gear? I know it's not bad doing that, I just usually try to avoid it unless all else fails.

I also know about rawr and have played around with my gear in it for a while now and was just wanting other input on it to see what other ferals are doing with this problem that I'm guessing more than a few people have ran into.

iamrelevart · 07/02/08, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by Valerian

Your DPS cycle should be a set of rules rather than a fixed thing due to the fact you do not crit 100% of the time (or 0% of the time) and unless you are hit and expertise capped you will have some avoided attacks as well.

Besides the first set of attacks you should be shredding until 4 or 5 combo points. Then you should let your energy regen so that you can rip and then immediately mangle. Then repeat the shredding until 4-5 combo points.

You aim for 4 combo points and if you happen to crit at 3 to get 5 all the better. The only time you're going to actively go for the 5 combo points is if you still have a rip ticking and your energy is going to start getting lost due to it going over 100.

Powershifting results in a net energy gain if you powershift immediately after the GCD is up AND you have less than 30 energy. In practice powershifting at that high a level of energy will be extremely mana inefficient so its probably best to aim for it when you're below 10 or so mana. This threshold can increase if you have a lot of mana and/or the fight is short.

Finally, as was mentioned Aran isn't a great fight to test your DPS on. The fact that he's turning around all the time can make getting shreds off pretty annoying (or downright impossible for the most part if you're topping the threat list). For lower content DPS tests, Morogrim or VR are probably the easiest tank and spank fights from Melee's POV.

Ok, that;s cool. I do actually base my cycle off 4 combo points. That was just a guideline referencing what I would do ideally. As far as powershifting goes, I never powershift with more than 14 energy. I try to get it below 10 (8 is my ideal number again, but as you said, I miss or get dodged, since I'm not hit/expertise capped). I totally agree with the needing seperate gear, and I've been working on that alot. The biggest problems I've been having are with the helm, legs and chest. I actually have a good chest to move into place, but I need to socket it and enchant it first. Once that is done, I should have no problem moving around some other gear too. I'll retest on a more static boss and see what my dps is there. Thanks so much for the tips!

Madrail · 07/02/08, 1:23 PM

People are probably going to groan, but I had a question about Ferocious Bite. It's been worked out on every individual possibility to be worse than Rip, and I accept that. However, I haven't seen anyone address the entire possible gamut, and if they have and I missed it I apologize. We've ruled out simply speccing for it as clearly inferior to Rip. It's been shown that overall Rip remains superior when powershifting. What I'm looking at, is the entire combination of things available to a feral druid that could increase Ferocious Bite. Namely talented for it, excess CP's from 2T4/Omen/Powershifting, and armor penetration. A lot of the high end dps gear has armor pen, and it seems a shame that 25-35% of our damage doesn't really take advantage of it. Obviously using powershifting to the degree necessary to be stacking up extra CP's presents an OOM problem, but the potential for that problem is the same either way I think. I can follow most of the math when people post it, but I've never been a bright enough fellow to figure it out on my own. I've thought about just doing testing using the invulnerable mobs out by the dark portal, but I know that I'm pretty far off from running an optimum cycle and I'm pretty sure that would just get worse as I got bored trying to run hundreds of iterations. So if anyone knows the math and can suggest or show how to figure it out, that'd be great. Even if it wasn't possible to maintain over the duration of a boss fight, if the potential is higher maybe it'd be worth speccing for to use on the last 20% when bosses typically enrage/change attack style/go bugnuts?

And I'm not just asking to justify the 60 badges I spent on Dory's even though the 25 badge cloak rates higher in Rawr. <.<

Mezoth · 07/02/08, 1:32 PM

Originally Posted by unitsinc

A few posts up someone mentioned that they used their pvp bracers for "farm" bosses and only tossed on their T6 bracers for new bosses, along with popping [Elixir of Ironskin]. Is this what most druids do? Or do you just put another defense/resil gem/chant on your gear? I know it's not bad doing that, I just usually try to avoid it unless all else fails.

I also know about rawr and have played around with my gear in it for a while now and was just wanting other input on it to see what other ferals are doing with this problem that I'm guessing more than a few people have ran into.

Many of the druids in here seem to go with the 15 def chest enchant, and some also use the 20 resil head enchant from SSO. The [Shadowmoon Insignia] is a good choice for a trinket honestly, even on Brutallus - the static dodge is more useful in my opinion then the clicky agility from the badge of tenacity, plus the high defense helps with miss chance and keeping you uncrittable.

Last time I tanked Brut, I had to use a flask to keep uncrittable. However, I lack any of the BT jewelry for tanking, and use the commendation/badge for my trinkets. I have since regemmed some of my gear for M'uru tanking, and I may end up having to use the ironskin elixirs to be uncrittable if I am called on to tank him again. Also, using one or two green gems for resil is not the end of the world, if it gets you to the uncrittable mark - just substitute out blue gems at the loss of 8stam per. And since the green gems normally seem to pile up in guild banks, that should be cheap.

Astrylian · 07/02/08, 1:34 PM

The big problem with trying to make FB worth using is that you have to spend a whopping 5 talent points to even make it worth considering. Where are those 5 talent points going to come from? You'd have to really heavily gimp your bear bonuses in order to get all the cat bonuses and get the FB dmg talent.

Though oddly enough, that looks like exactly what we'll be doing in WotLK, based on the current talent trees, what with FB always critting against bleeding mobs.