Orbaxlin - it's because each extra 1% dodge makes more and more difference to the amount of time you can expect to live.

At the extremes and ignoring other avoidance sources:
Going from 0% dodge to 1% is almost no difference. You'll still be hit by 99% of the attacks that used to hit you.
Going from 99% dodge to 100% though means that 100% of the attacks that used to hit will now be dodged.

In terms of percentage reduction of the original damage taken both are the same but in terms of 'how long can I expect to live in front of this boss' that last point of dodge is a doozy.

And yes, 100% avoidance can be reached in the live game - it's how a Rogue tanked Grull.

Ok, that makes sense. I can't imagine it being that great for main-tanking, as you'd be rage starved. But on trash it'd be great as long as you're not the first kill target. And multi-mob tanking...swipe spam FTW.

No, you'd be surprised how little rage starvation you get, even at 90+% dodge... During long avoidance streaks you have to drop Maul occasionally, but that's it. The problem is that by the time you're that high on dodge, you're in Sunwell, and everything there has Sunwell Radiance (make sure you check that in Rawr), except for M'uru.

It turns out all the agility you are stacking to get avoidance, also gives you crit. Crit is 5 rage on each crit. For white damage, its double rage generation+5. In short, if you aren't maul'ing your rage bar will never be empty.

You do miss out on throwing maul's a bit. But you pretty much never have to skip any other yellow attack. And your non-maul'ing threat gen is up enough that unless the boss is doing threat decrease moves no one really catches up to you (well except shadow priests in high raid damage situations).

Dodge stacking is also awesome for bosses like Bloodboil who stack up debuffs. I've had his annoying bleed debuff fall off of me while tanking him multiple times in a given fight. And having high dodge means you get to dodge some of his -15% threat hits and take a lot fewer hits of the bleed debuff. If he didn't have the blind-like move he does, I'm pretty certain a feral could solo tank him in dodge gear. Net affect of all this is that dps have a much higher threat ceiling than they'd normally have for the fight.

Caveat: We've been farming BT for about a month or so. I've not really seen much of sunwell.


Edit: wrong boss name fixed.

This was talked about a few pages back.
http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t16902-f...94/#post868632

I was wondering if anyone remembers where in the thread gear for KJ tanking was addressed. The search function doesn't yield anything (Kil'Jaeden turns out nothing and KJ doesn't work), and 200 pages is a lot to go through.

We just killed M'uru last night and did a couple half-hearted attempts at KJ. I remember reading (in this thread), it was quite possible for a druid to reach 2k TPS on him, and I was confused as I was struggling to get 1500 (Mangle, Swipe x3, Maul at all times). My enhancement shaman died before the Hands, true, but one shaman shouldn't make up for 500 tps. (Please don't come with the arguments a warlock would be a better choice - we've progressed all through BT and Sunwell with the same 3 tanks and we're not going to bench one of them when we're at KJ.)

Even though I don't remember the thread for KJ tanking gear I have a few hints from what I could find out during the 2 KJ kills I tanked.

From your post I assume you are using 3 tanks for KJ - We use 2 so I have to help with picking the adds with ~20k threat on skull while warrior picks up other 3 from me. This will be much easier with 3 tanks because you virtually don't have to help them, unless say they spawn very close to you.

Back to tps: We use a lot of "physical buffing specs", surv. hunter, arms warrior, imp. expose armor rogue which if you don't have in the raid might be the cause of your lower tps. I also get a BM hunter buff and a battle shout.
It might be advisable to be uncrittable versus lvl 70 but I am 13 def short and I have never died to reflections because I tank maximum of 2, most of the time just one.

Gear: I use maximum tps gear which consists of:

Vengeful Gladiator's Dragonhide Helm
Brooch of Deftness - For the hit rating mainly because I have Collar aswell
T6 shoulders, bracers, belt, boots and legs - for the 27 hit rating
Crimson Paragon's Cover
Harness of Carnal Instinct
Stanchion of Primal Instinct
Idol of Terror
Gloves of Immortal Dusk
Angelista's Revenge
Band of the Eternal Champion
Shard of Contempt
Berserker's Call - extra threat at start, 1st and 3rd "bubbles" combined with haste buff = sweetness.

which puts me to 99 hit rating and 28 expertise. I use agi food and Flask of Fortification. If you are still having tps issues, I'd switch to agi pot instead.

I am not saying this is the best there is but it has worked for me perfectly. (1700 tps when unlucky with crits, 2.1k on average peaking at 3.3k with haste and trinket)

There is one main difference...I am using Lacerate instead of Swipe because when I tried Swiping my tps output was lower (might have been unlucky 3 tries in a row?)

WWS link to latest kill: WWS Loading...

Edit: I am usually 100k threat above Gazzank (2,5k dps)

My guild's second feral went over to using mostly PVP gear to tank (4p T6 included for swipe threating) with DPS pieces mixed in. He wound up with something like 11% DOT reduction and still much more HP than our warrior tank in that role. Chromatic flask and agi food if I'm not mistaken. No need for expertise here if you're not tanking adds (we use three tanks). Not sure what his average threat was, but it was enough to keep a significant lead over 2.8k DPS so that sounds good enough to me!

I assume you're getting the haste buff when everyone else does? We also break out all the debuffs - imp expose armor, expose weakness, blood frenzy, etc.

WWS:
Wow Web Stats

Thanks for all your suggestions. After last night I managed to get to a steady 1800-2200 TPS still using Mangle, Swipe x3 rotation. I did try putting Lacerate in but it didn't seem to help my threat any, as my Swipes were averaging far over 300 non-crit. I switched to full DPS gear only without 2t4 (Twins shoulders and T5 head, socketed with agi) and still managed just above 18k health, which seemed sufficient.

Rawr puts Idol of the White Stag far above Idol of Terror on threat - did anyone try tanking Hands with Terror and then swapping for White Stag for KJ? I tried placing Terror in, but the agility didn't increase, so was wondering if the Terror proc isn't working properly in Rawr and that's why it showed that. I put my gear in and it notes my Unlimited Threat as 2111 with a Mangle-Swipex3 rotation as the best, so it seems I'm doing what I'm supposed to.

Edit: Found part of the answer here: http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t16902-f...84/#post816338. It answers why it's not listed properly, but not which one is better for TPS.

Can you bash reflections? They were immune to stuns some time back. :|

Ryetoast produced 1747 tps 1747 TPS Foofer

Regarding 1500 tps, a rogue has to do 3018 dps, a warrior 2641, elem shaman/warlock 2381, and because of orbs/reflections they should never get close to your threat on KJ.

Huggme - Your guild has a prot paladin, and I assume he's used on at least Felmyst and M'uru, so why not KJ? The "Tank an add P1 and DPS the rest of the fight" (or at least help control dragons), or "Tank P1 and do insane threat on the Boss" roles just scream use of a Druid, and definitely not a paladin, so why, out of 3 Tanks for 3 roles, did you end up doing the one you're the worst suited for?