Feral Megathread - Page 329

Huggme · 09/23/08, 9:05 AM

Originally Posted by Boevis

Huggme - Your guild has a prot paladin, and I assume he's used on at least Felmyst and M'uru, so why not KJ? The "Tank an add P1 and DPS the rest of the fight" (or at least help control dragons), or "Tank P1 and do insane threat on the Boss" roles just scream use of a Druid, and definitely not a paladin, so why, out of 3 Tanks for 3 roles, did you end up doing the one you're the worst suited for?

Yes, we do have a prot paladin but his gear is/was not optimal for tanking all 4 adds because t5 didn't cut it and he got killed very quickly while tanking 4 reflections.

I don't get this question

Originally Posted by Boevis

so why, out of 3 Tanks for 3 roles, did you end up doing the one you're the worst suited for?

Firstly I don't see 3 tank roles on KJ really. KJ tank + 1-2 adds and an add tank. With good geared prot pala this could be fulltime KJ/fulltime adds...
I manage to produce superior threat (to warrior/paladin) so I can help out picking and tanking 1-2 adds while still leading total threat done to boss by 100k.

I do agree that tanking adds+dps on KJ would indeed fit my "hybrid" role/spec more but when I think about it - warrior is a bit better 4x adds tank from 25% -> 0%. When needed he can spell reflect/last stand/SW. I can demo roar and hope for the best...

Boevis · 09/23/08, 8:12 PM

I meant tanking in Phase 1 and then DPS or Threat tank the rest of the fight. While Warrior, Paladin, and Shaman *can* tank one of the Hands P1, Druids can do it without any gear concessions.

But I had misunderstood that you tank both KJ and as many Adds as you can keep threat on, that's something I hadn't considered before since we went with Prot Pally from the start.

Amorinn · 09/23/08, 10:39 PM

Originally Posted by Lyssa

Thanks for all your suggestions. After last night I managed to get to a steady 1800-2200 TPS still using Mangle, Swipe x3 rotation. I did try putting Lacerate in but it didn't seem to help my threat any, as my Swipes were averaging far over 300 non-crit. I switched to full DPS gear only without 2t4 (Twins shoulders and T5 head, socketed with agi) and still managed just above 18k health, which seemed sufficient.

Rawr puts Idol of the White Stag far above Idol of Terror on threat - did anyone try tanking Hands with Terror and then swapping for White Stag for KJ? I tried placing Terror in, but the agility didn't increase, so was wondering if the Terror proc isn't working properly in Rawr and that's why it showed that. I put my gear in and it notes my Unlimited Threat as 2111 with a Mangle-Swipex3 rotation as the best, so it seems I'm doing what I'm supposed to.

Edit: Found part of the answer here: http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t16902-f...84/#post816338. It answers why it's not listed properly, but not which one is better for TPS.

Can you post your KJ gear or possibly a Rawr file of your KJ gear set up? Here's mine:
Uploading.com - The best file hosting service!

I don't have the best item in every single slot (trinket, neck, chest), and some of these items have tanking enchants (shoulders, helm, legs), but I pull 2500-3000 TPS on KJ easily. Raid buffed, wearing the gear in that Rawr file, I have 50% crit, 4k AP, and 18k HP. My raid runs with Imp Faerie Fire, Expose Weakness, Imp Expose Armor, and I always have a shaman in my group, so +str and +agi totems. I don't pick up reflections (our pally tanks all 4). I use an endless-rage rotation; Mangle 1st priority, maul every swing, maintain 5 lacerates, swipe like crazy. Always feral charging back in after a knockback. Knockbacks when feral charge is on CD will really hurt your threat when you've just pulled, but later in the fight you'll be so far ahead that it won't matter.

The other big factor in your TPS is getting the Haste breath from the dragon.. depending on how far into the encounter your guild is getting, you might not be getting breathed yet?

Regarding Idol of Terror vs White Stag, I use terror but I haven't experimented with White Stag since it never dropped for me.

david0925 · 09/23/08, 11:42 PM

Originally Posted by Lyssa

Thanks for all your suggestions. After last night I managed to get to a steady 1800-2200 TPS still using Mangle, Swipe x3 rotation. I did try putting Lacerate in but it didn't seem to help my threat any, as my Swipes were averaging far over 300 non-crit. I switched to full DPS gear only without 2t4 (Twins shoulders and T5 head, socketed with agi) and still managed just above 18k health, which seemed sufficient.

Rawr puts Idol of the White Stag far above Idol of Terror on threat - did anyone try tanking Hands with Terror and then swapping for White Stag for KJ? I tried placing Terror in, but the agility didn't increase, so was wondering if the Terror proc isn't working properly in Rawr and that's why it showed that. I put my gear in and it notes my Unlimited Threat as 2111 with a Mangle-Swipex3 rotation as the best, so it seems I'm doing what I'm supposed to.

Edit: Found part of the answer here: http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t16902-f...84/#post816338. It answers why it's not listed properly, but not which one is better for TPS.

If you want max threat use Idol of Brutality (lol) from Stratholme

cana · 09/23/08, 11:45 PM

Originally Posted by Amorinn

Always feral charging back in after a knockback. Knockbacks when feral charge is on CD will really hurt your threat when you've just pulled, but later in the fight you'll be so far ahead that it won't matter.

I agree with you that multiple knockbacks in a row don't really matter for threat later on, but still ... they are damn annoying

Using your handy little SnareBreaker-Macro removes the slowing part of that Mindflay KJ casts for a second, what, together with lag, will be enough time to get back into meleerange.

/cast [stance:1] !Dire Bear Form; [stance:4] !Travelform; [stance:3] !Cat Form; [stance:5]

(Don't nail me down on the exact spelling of the forms as I don't use enUS client)

Lyssa · 09/24/08, 7:49 AM

Originally Posted by Amorinn

Can you post your KJ gear or possibly a Rawr file of your KJ gear set up? Here's mine:
Uploading.com - The best file hosting service!

That link just times out for me. Here is mine KilJaeden.xml - FileFront.com. Admittedly all pieces are not best-in-slot, but it's the best I've managed to get as DPS gear is considered offspec for me in my guild. Shoulders and legs and head have tanking enchants as I use them mainly for tanking. "DPS" enchants for the other slots.

We haven't gotten the breaths under perfect control yet, so no, I did not always get it. We didn't set up a proper drum rotation either until late last night - I was in a group with enh shaman, 2xBMs, fury warrior, with 4 drums.

We don't have any active rogues so no expose weakness, we don't have a balance druid so no imp FF, we don't have a retri paladin, and yesterday our arms warrior wasn't avaliable so no 4% buff either. WWS Loading... from last night. Any more advice appreciated, although I think I do manage enough TPS by now for it to be enough. By the time we were at ~70% I was always on at least 50k more threat than the second person, most of the time higher.

I have to mention I really enjoy the simplicity of my job at KJ after having dealt with the entrance side of M'uru adds for months!

CD · 09/24/08, 9:16 AM

Originally Posted by Amorinn

Can you post your KJ gear or possibly a Rawr file of your KJ gear set up? Here's mine:
Uploading.com - The best file hosting service!

I don't have the best item in every single slot (trinket, neck, chest), and some of these items have tanking enchants (shoulders, helm, legs), but I pull 2500-3000 TPS on KJ easily.

Kil'jaeden shows differently, no-one is at 3k sustained tps. The big tps/ dps calc problem for KJ seemed to be fire bloom damage contributing to both. Rogues with salv have a 0.49 threat modifier so if you're double their threat you're roughly double their dps- what dps are your rogues pulling and are you 100% ahead of them?

I think the best idol for the fight is very obviously [Idol of the Raven Goddess]. I've yet to kill him but I feel my TPS is enough but my survivability just isn't- any time I get a fire bloom I can just fall over dead- currently going with ~19.5k hp and a bit over 1700 sustained tps on the longer pulls.

I'd like to know more about the knockback- sometimes he just won't use it then he'll start chaining it. Feral charge back? Knocked back immediately. Feral charge back, step back slightly? Still knocked back immediately. Feral charge back, move out of range, step forward again to be just in range? Knockback again!

♦ Regen · 09/24/08, 3:40 PM

Originally Posted by Lyssa

That link just times out for me. Here is mine KilJaeden.xml - FileFront.com. Admittedly all pieces are not best-in-slot, but it's the best I've managed to get as DPS gear is considered offspec for me in my guild. Shoulders and legs and head have tanking enchants as I use them mainly for tanking. "DPS" enchants for the other slots.

We don't have any active rogues so no expose weakness, we don't have a balance druid so no imp FF, we don't have a retri paladin, and yesterday our arms warrior wasn't avaliable so no 4% buff either. WWS Loading... from last night. Any more advice appreciated, although I think I do manage enough TPS by now for it to be enough. By the time we were at ~70% I was always on at least 50k more threat than the second person, most of the time higher.

I have to mention I really enjoy the simplicity of my job at KJ after having dealt with the entrance side of M'uru adds for months!

Heres my current KJ setup I run:

Helm: [Thunderheart Cover]Green gem+3% bonus crit, more or less my M'uru helm/part of my high avoidance set
Neck: [Telonicus's Pendant of Mayhem] A few obvious upgrades if you manage to get your hands on dps loot
Shoulders: [Demontooth Shoulderpads] purple/blue + tanking enchant
Back: [Crimson Paragon's Cover] High stam -- occasionally parries (not enough to warrant shard imo)
Chest: [Thunderheart Chestguard] triple blue --- Old chest no longer used for anything besides this set
Wrist: [Insidious Bands] /w hit, Old DPS bracers
Gloves: [Gloves of the Forest Drifter]
Waist: [Thunderheart Waistguard]
Legs: [Leggings of the Immortal Beast]
Feet: [Thunderheart Treads] /w some form of run speed - necessary for pretty much every pair of boots imo
Rings: [Angelista's Revenge] [Band of the Abyssal Lord]
Trinekts: [Dragonspine Trophy] [Tsunami Talisman]
Weapon: [Stanchion of Primal Instinct]
Idol: [Idol of Terror]

Goals when forming set:
Meet requested 20k buffed hp.
Maintain 4pc for Swipe
High Threat (Hit+Apen, especially if you are running expose+survival, threat)

Not going to lie it was mildly rushed just to meet 20k hp on the fly. If I had to change anything I would definitely try to swap harness + bracers --- except my normal chest is pure agi which nets a huge stam hit over pure stam t6. Possibly blindfold + bracers if stam permits. Current Idol = Self-Crit whore ---- Correct choice for this fight is definitely Raven goddess considering the dps restrictions.

Here's last night parse of the kill Kj kill 09/23. Finish with about 1087 dps (93% prescence, downtime from bubbles/pre-breaths/combat res (maybe that attempt? not sure)

Only real threats you have to worry about are badass ret paladins / dual-glaive warrior. As long as my swipes are critting for over 1000 I know threat should be fine for the entire fight.

A few tips I suppose include barkskinning with ~3 seconds left on shadow spikes + find a trinket besides shard of contempt... definitely not worth using.

-----

On a side note: I really don't quite understand the stress of side-tanking on M'uru over the past few weeks of doing it (Pre-nerf kill in dif. guild used an AoE-strat in which I would have to pick up all 3 adds and drag them to the middle of the room and call AoE. Ultimately the most stressfull time I've ever had tanking (maintaining threat on melee's focus fire + mage +2nd berzerker from constant seed-spam), although I guess it still gives you the "if I screw up/miss one the raid pretty much wipes" feeling. Tanking KJ is definitely more relaxing and enjoyable, turn on that music and go berserker-mode (lolAthene) on threat.

scient · 09/25/08, 4:41 AM

I have been playing a feral druid for a while now, mainly kitty DPS and doing some offtanking. So i have been using all kinds of calcs like RAWR and gearlists etc. to see how items rank. And almost every one of them promotes T4 2set bonus as very very good.
Now my question would be why is that

Besides the obvious theoretical free shreds/mangles/rips for Bloodlust procs.
I have been sorting my WWS stats from different Black Temple and Mount Hyjal encounters and seems like the average procrate for Bloodlust is 5-6 times per ~4 minute encounter, so its about 100-120 bonus energy per 4 minutes.
Without any serious theorycraft skills, i would say that its not that much, 2-2,5 free shreds, which makes about 6000-8000 damage if it crits (considering "good" crits are around 3000 damage usually). Wouldnt raw AP and crit be better than those procs at some point? Or where would be the line drawn, where the AP/Crit gain from shoulder/glove slots would outweight the 2set bonus, but smaller stats from those 2 items?

Also i have been looking for some WWS examples with feral DPS druid who can spit out decent dps, still yet to find any. Most of the discussions consist of some random druids doing 900 dps in Karazhan runs

I would actually like to find a dedicated DPS feral to check out the gear and stats and the DPS number for that gear.

Im currently around 3875 AP and 43.46% crit self-buffed in cat form and the most damage i have been able to do is a bit below 1500 on Teron (with 98% DPS time), with some 1300-1450 DPS tries on some other encounters. I would imagine that with my stats and gear i would be able to spit out a bit more. I have to note that im not powershifting at all, i have no manglebot and i never get GOA. Usually its just SOE, WF, Battle Shout in my group, and 1-2 drums besides me on good days.

Anyhow any good tips would be welcome, perhaps i have missed some aspects of kitty dps, i would gladly be enlightened.

dukes · 09/25/08, 5:01 AM

Very basic theorycrafting approach to the potential gain:

4% proc chance on 2t4.

60 white hits / minute, approx 1 ability per 4 second period (averaging an ability at 40 energy, including powershifting / OoC gains and reduction due to rip not procing / dodges). This gives around 75 hits per minute, or approximately 3 procs per minute (75 * 0.04 = 3).

Provisional gain = 60 energy per minute, or approximately 60/42 = 1.42 shreds per minute.

Average shred is around 1.5k, or 3.6k crit. With a 50% crit rate, this gives about 2500 damage for an average shred, so about 3750 damage per minute, or about 62.5 dps.

This is modified due to frequency of powershifting (potential to lose ticks of energy when you shift, if unlucky), frequency of getting to 70 energy ready to rip->mangle, getting an OoC proc and then a bloodlust tick with a normal tick and wasting energy, and time spent not actually hitting the boss on any fight where you have to spend time not hitting them.

As it says in the first post, no matter what gains anything tells you you should be getting from it, go from experience. I personally dropped the 2t4 bonus after getting 4t6 (when there weren't the extra pieces from SWP to get both), and found I got a DPS increase overall. Don't blindly accept anything when it comes to theorycrafting, as you'll never get the perfect gain in game that you may be able to theorycraft out of game.

Valerian · 09/25/08, 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by scient

Im currently around 3875 AP and 43.46% crit self-buffed in cat form and the most damage i have been able to do is a bit below 1500 on Teron (with 98% DPS time), with some 1300-1450 DPS tries on some other encounters. I would imagine that with my stats and gear i would be able to spit out a bit more. I have to note that im not powershifting at all, i have no manglebot and i never get GOA. Usually its just SOE, WF, Battle Shout in my group, and 1-2 drums besides me on good days.

Are you using any set bonuses with those stats? 2T4 and 4T6 are both fairly large bonuses which are not evident when just stating stats. Also whats your hit/expertise at? Are you powershifting?

Hitting about 1500 dps without 2T4 and 4T6 and moderate to low powershifting should be about right I'd say. Getting much higher than that is pretty tough without some odd stacking (multiple bloodlusts, full drums etc) or requires sunwell gear (so you can use both T4 and T6 set bonuses).

unitsinc · 09/26/08, 2:05 AM

Originally Posted by scient

I have been playing a feral druid for a while now, mainly kitty DPS and doing some offtanking.

Also i have been looking for some WWS examples with feral DPS druid who can spit out decent dps, still yet to find any. Most of the discussions consist of some random druids doing 900 dps in Karazhan runs

I would actually like to find a dedicated DPS feral to check out the gear and stats and the DPS number for that gear.

Im currently around 3875 AP and 43.46% crit self-buffed in cat form and the most damage i have been able to do is a bit below 1500 on Teron (with 98% DPS time), with some 1300-1450 DPS tries on some other encounters. I would imagine that with my stats and gear i would be able to spit out a bit more. I have to note that im not powershifting at all, i have no manglebot and i never get GOA. Usually its just SOE, WF, Battle Shout in my group, and 1-2 drums besides me on good days.

Anyhow any good tips would be welcome, perhaps i have missed some aspects of kitty dps, i would gladly be enlightened.

I would agree that once you get 2t4 and 4t6 you'll notice a large DPS boost.

Wow Web Stats

My personal best on Teron with only one Bloodlust and 4 drummers using the shifting macros in the macro thread. I was also in a druids optimal DPS group whish isn't common at all. I'll be sure to log out in my DPS gear tonight.

scient · 09/26/08, 3:35 AM

Originally Posted by Valerian

Are you using any set bonuses with those stats? 2T4 and 4T6 are both fairly large bonuses which are not evident when just stating stats. Also whats your hit/expertise at? Are you powershifting?

Hitting about 1500 dps without 2T4 and 4T6 and moderate to low powershifting should be about right I'd say. Getting much higher than that is pretty tough without some odd stacking (multiple bloodlusts, full drums etc) or requires sunwell gear (so you can use both T4 and T6 set bonuses).

Nope, not using any bonuses (i have just 1 piece of T6 and switched out the T4 pieces).
Hit rating is 149 and expertise rating is 11 (just Shard of Contempt). And i'm almost not powershifting at all.

Sunwell gear would probably boost my dps a lot indeed, sadly my guild isn't just quite "there" to clear SW

Valerian · 09/26/08, 8:25 AM

Originally Posted by scient

Nope, not using any bonuses (i have just 1 piece of T6 and switched out the T4 pieces).
Hit rating is 149 and expertise rating is 11 (just Shard of Contempt). And i'm almost not powershifting at all.

Sunwell gear would probably boost my dps a lot indeed, sadly my guild isn't just quite "there" to clear SW

You're over the hit cap and some of the rogue gear you're using is sub-optimal. The T4 set bonuses will likely help a lot considering the pieces you can replace are not terribly good (Helm and Gloves for instance). No metagem in the helm is a problem too. I suggest downloading Rawr and using it to find a more optimal setup for your dps gear.

scient · 09/26/08, 9:23 AM

Originally Posted by Valerian

You're over the hit cap and some of the rogue gear you're using is sub-optimal. The T4 set bonuses will likely help a lot considering the pieces you can replace are not terribly good (Helm and Gloves for instance). No metagem in the helm is a problem too. I suggest downloading Rawr and using it to find a more optimal setup for your dps gear.

Well the gloves are actually the best gloves out of anything attainable before SW. When looking a the gloves alone (not considering any possible set bonuses) then Handwraps of the Aggressor are by far superior to Gauntlets of Malorne.
Grimgrin Faceguard on the other hand is very little below stag-helm of Malorne (with the meta gem).

Ill do some math in the evening...

Edit: next time ill think a bit before writing bs