Garanthir

There's an excellent "wish list" of DPS gear earlier in this thread. My priority is Tank 1st DPS 2nd so sure sometimes you'll have to comprimise (mainly on set items), but if you notice many items are simply off-set DPS gear.

The T4 bonus is really that good as has been stated many times.

 

Toskk

Hi Camulos,

Armor Penetration is modeled to the best of our current understanding of the mechanics of Armor Mitigation. Armor Penetration effectively reduces the target's armor by x (the amount of Armor Penetration). This is converted into a mitigation percentage from the formula (from wowwiki):

mitigation_percentage = (armor_value / (armor_value + 10557.5 )) * 100

Individual boss armor values were gathered from postings here at EJ. The link is:

[RAID] Boss armor values

 

Toskk

Hi Monstor,

Armor penetration is an interesting stat.. Blizzard probably hasn't really done a lot of testing on it yet, which is why it's hard to compare Armor Penetration to other stats (it's not normalized). Here's some curious things about Armor Penetration:

1). Armor Penetration gets better the more of it you have (the lower you can drop the target's armor), until you hit zero mitigation.

2). Rip is unaffected by armor mitigation anyway, so depending on your total percentage of damage dealt by Rip, Armor Penetration can change considerably in value.

Mithuata has done some excellent work at creating 'ultimate' gear lists, and I believe typically he found that Armor Penetration was great for increasing DPS, but not worth sacrificing Agility (and sometimes Strength) for.

Currently, from every report and model I've seen, there is no current gear in the game that is better than 2pc. t4. Yes, for certain slots some items are closer than others, so it is important to choose which slots to keep the 2pc. t4 in, but it isn't ever going to be dropped out entirely. I've factored this against both 4pc. t5 and 2pc. and 4pc. t6.. Definitely the combination of 2pc. t4 + 2pc. t6 comes out on top, unless you happen to have a Manglebot (and I haven't even tried to do that analysis).

Truthfully, there is a tradeoff (particularly with tier gear) between using it for DPS and tanking.. personally, I'm only in t4 atm.. and knowing how strong the 2pc. t4 bonus is for DPS I've enchanted and gemmed for DPS first.. t5 will be a different story.. I'll go tanking enchants and gems there definitely. Some items you can get away with enchanting/gemming for both.. for example, the Relentless Earthstorm Metagem (+12 agi/+3% crit damage) is exceptional for sustained DPS, and very good for tanking as well, although depending on your gear the +18 stam *might* be a little better still).

 

Mijae

[Staff of Primal Fury] is slightly better than the S2 Mace. However, the S3 staff is significantly better than both.


The best balance of gear to have mulitple sets for tanking and DPSing comes from utilizing the combinations of 2t4 and 2t6. The basic methodology is if you're going to MT, you'll end up with T6 gemmed/enchanted for tanking. The T6 legs and gloves can double for both tanking and DPS, so there is your set bonus. The ap/crit leg enchant is only slightly better than the agi/stam one, so stick to the agi/stam. Even with 15 stam gems they can both still be good for DPS. Shoulder choices are easy, use T6 for tanking and T4 for DPS (gem/enchant accordingly). Helm and chest really depend on the alternatives you can get for each slot (one or the other should stay T4). [Cursed Vision of Sargeras] is your best choice, [Nether Shadow Tunic] second, and so on.

 

Allev

1) No stat is better than another in isolation except when talking about gemming. Look at the overall piece of gear ini combination with your other gear.

2) Don't break 2t4 until 4t6, and even then it's playstyle/preference-dependent. It really is that good.

3) "How do you make the perfect DPS off-spec set that's viable for good sustained DPS?" I don't what this means, but I'll assume it means "how do you make a DPS set with all the tank gear?" Simple.
-Hybridize T4/T5/T6 gear which has hybrid enchants (gloves, chest, pants?).
-Dedicate T4/T5 gear that doesn't have enchants (helm, shoulders, pants?).
-As soon as you can, get new pieces for either tanking or DPS (T5 for tanking, offset/S3/another T4 for DPS).
-Resocket T4 for DPS as necessary.
-Get dedicated DPS items for belt/boots/bracers/rings/neck/trinket.

 

Carlos

I am in the same position as most other MT/OT druids. My T4 is nearly full tank enchanted and gemed. Right now I am waiting for T5 shoulders to get them in for tanking an change all the enchanting end gems to DPS in T4 shoulders. This with S3 Chest and Head will give me 2 very good options for damage allong with T4 shoulders and hands.

We have some good guidance allready in the thread see http://elitistjerks.com/513606-post259.html

 

Vaccine

Its just a cycle, you've got to get your tanking gear sorted before your DPS gear so your tier takes priority there. As you progress you can regem your T4 for DPS. At T6 its your choice but the popular opinion seems to be to make the Helm pure dps with solid sapphires. The other 4 pieces, go full agility on the ones that have sockets. +10agi is still quite nifty for tanking and makes it excellent for DPS too.

If you're worried about the loss of stamina I think you'd be better sticking with 2x T4 fully gemmed/chanted for DPS along with some T6 level dps leather. You're gonna have to do your own math on which 2 slots to keep as T4. Helm is a good choice but Cursed Vision really is damn good so you may wish to change to something else. Gloves are a terrible piece (t4) so I'd avoid them. Shoulders is a good choice, probably combined with legs or help as you choose. The Gladiators S3 chest piecce is amazing which is why I'd steer clear of using that slot. So something along the lines of:

Cursed Vision/T4
T4 Shoulders
S3 Chest
T4 legs/ something else (T6 is still quite good with the stam/agi patch and a 15 stam gem) or S3 pants.
Gloves are a tough one, Dextrous manipulation are still pretty good, T6 or S3 too.

 

Bag

Unless you have a manglebot, I'd recommend holding 2pc t6. Right now, I rock t4 hat/shoulders, t6 gloves/legs, and Nether Shadow bp. I plan on eventually nabbing a Cursed Vision and going t4 shoulders/bp. I've experimented with a million different combinations and spent probably 4kg regeming/enchanting gear and 2pc t4 is just plain not worth giving up. The main issue is that many fights, even long boss fights, require you to attack things besides the boss or require some kind of shifting. Energy is at a premium and free ticks will always be more valuable than 15% finisher damage in my estimation.

 

Bullietu

i was exceptic also in switching some time ago from my 2t4 / 2t6 to 4t6. i ver tried both combinations before and after the patch. im using cursed vision also for dps helm. overall 4t6 was the best way to go, my dps really raised compared to using 2t4 pcs.

Now with the change they did, powershifting became a lot stronger and a must if you want that extra energy. i dont want to rely on getting freebies energy ticks randomly. just get 3 points on natural shapeshifter so you dont waste too much mana and powershift just before getting an energy tick, with that /cancelform macro. it is an instant 40 energy +tick you get 60 . so you can squeeze a mangle then a shred or even put that finish move in there.

before the patch i was doing in full dps gear around 800dps, now im rocking steady 1.1k dps and sometimes can get around 1.3-1.5k, depending in which group im in (bloodlusts cycle and such).

i still have 2 pc t4 on the bank but im not going back to it. 4t6pc + cursed vision is the way im staying. time your powershifting, and you have all the energy you need. remember about the GCDs before hitting the macro.


now to another issue. about Idol of Terror for tanking idol (cause everbloom is still by far the best for the dps), i dunno, since i got tons of badges doing ZA and heroic dailies lately, i bought it and tried on Za , kara (badge farming lolz) and heroics, it rarely proccd and wasnt very good for multi mob tanking. i still prefer using my lvl 60 blue idol from strat. way more TPS imo. i know more dodge isnt bad, but im ok with what i have for dodge and armor atm, dont need 65 more for only 10 secs.

what you guys say??

 

Bag

exceptic is the best word in this thread

 

Boevis

I'm exactly the same as Bag atm, the Expertise change forced me out of my previous [Leggings of Murderous Intent] with T4 Hat/Chest, but not a huge loss except I'm sucking for a ring slot now.

As for the Gem/Enchant dilemma, I feel the need to point out that there's a large number of non-set DPS gear out there (especially Chest, Pants, and Gloves, but I suppose Gloves are irrelivant) And outside of Arena gear, 0 non-set tanking items worth a damn.

This can be taken 2 ways, you can either gem your Tiered Gear for tanking because "You are the MT of your Guild and want to max Sta" and just use a couple of the pieces for DPS set bonus's; or you can (like me, dukes, and bag seem to do) Gem for Agi everywhere (2 agi/sta in blue sockets and 2 agi/hit in yellow to activate RED) and tell healers to l2p when you die. Believe me when I say that T4 DPS gear is good enough for tanking to get you through SSC/TE as OT/MT (I MT'd every boss except Kael/Hydross/Vashj with T4 gear)

As for which "tanking" items are the least DPS loss, I believe it goes.

Gloves: 15 Agi... 0 loss
Chest: +15 Resil vs +6 Stats = ~30.6 AEP loss
Pants: 12 Agi vs 50 AP 12 Crit = 36.3 AEP Loss
Shoulders: 20 AP 15 Crit = ~45.5 AEP loss Scryer 30 AP 10 Crit = ~47 AEP Loss Aldor
Helm: 34 AP 16 Hit = ~61.2 AEP loss

Stam Meta vs RED = ~1.25% DPS loss (not even going to bother AEP on that)
8 agi gem = 0 loss
4 agi/4 hit = 4.56 AEP loss
4 agi/6 sta gem = ~11.36 AEP loss
12 sta gem = ~22.72 AEP loss

Pertinent Socket Bonus's
T4 Helm: 1Y = +4 Agi
T4 Shoulders: 2B = +3 Crit
T4 Chest: 1Y 1B 1R = +4 Hit

T5 Helm: 1R = +6 Sta
T5 Shoulders: 1Y 1B = +3 Str
T5 Chest: 1Y 1B 1R = +4 Str
T5 Pants: 1B = +2 Agi

T6 Helm: 1B = +4 Str
T6 Shoulders: 1Y 1B = +3 Str
T6 Chest: 1Y 1B 1R = +4 Str
T6 Gloves: 1B = +2 Str
T6 Pants: 1B = +2 Str

Clearly Gloves will always be the first choice, after that I'd say Pants if you're gemming 12 Sta, otherwise Chests if you take the socket bonus.


Edit: [Idol of Terror] is amazing, but you need +hit to make it worthwhile in bear since mangle isn't spammable. The cooldown on the idol and on mangle don't match up very well either, I go 9-15 seconds without it proccing sometimes, it's still the best Tanking idol since it's the only one that provides us any mitigation whatsoever.

 

monstor

I've logged out in DPS gear, tell me what you think? I guess I'll be using the T4 legs + helm to get the 2pc bonus, and probably not going to replace my S2 maul since i lack the hit. Right now I am sitting at 110 Hit, and using [Nyn'jah's Tabi Boots] will give me a nice buff. Not really sure how i am going to get to 142 Hit rating.

Would do you guys suggest would be the best 2pc T4 to use for dps? I am thinking of getting T4 chest for DPS and use T5 [Nordrassil Feral-Kilt], which will give me a lot of hit.

 

Valerian

Before T6 the ideal 2 pieces for T4 are shoulders and gloves. Helm should be S3 as should chest. Once you hit T6 gear, using the Shoulders and Chest for T4 and Gloves/Pants for T6. Helm should be S3 or Cursed Vision. Before T6 pants you should be using the badge pants or Skulker's Greaves, both of which are very close to each other in AEP.

 

Mijae

The reverse is equally true. You can design T6 for pure DPS and have slightly weaker tanking set, or design it for pure tanking and have slightly weaker DPS set. It all depends on your position in raid. We have 2 ferals that raid regularly in my guild. I have become 2nd tank and he is basically third. On bosses where a druid MT outweighs a warrior I tank. He basically never MTs bosses. So, I would recommend him to design T6 for DPS but myself for tanking.

From an end-game perspective, if you plan to only use the T6 gloves and legs in a DPS set, that's only 2 gems worth of difference (and possibly leg enchant). You can gem/enchant the rest of your T6 any way you want for tanking. The DPS difference is marginal, but the tanking difference could be more readily noticed. I won't argue the difference of using agi gems, I can see both sides. However, without the defense enchants on helm/shoulders it can be tricky to reach the crit reduction cap.

While T4 dps can be "good enough" for tanking, T4 tanking also can be "good enough" for dps.

 

spartakos

Toskks still puts S2 arena mace above [Staff of Primal Fury](for my gear at least).

 

Vaccine

S2
+42 Strength
Equip: Improves hit rating by 18
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 42 (
Equip: Increases attack power by 1010 in Cat, Bear, Dire Bear, and Moonkin forms only.

vs

ZA
+49 Agility
Equip: Increases attack power by 973 in Cat, Bear, Dire Bear, and Moonkin forms only.
Equip: Your attacks ignore 315 of your opponent's armor.


I''ve stripped out the stats that don't affect DPS.

All the usual stuff apply (talents kings etc...).

First we convert the strength to AP. (42x2x1.1x1.03x1.1)= ~105 AP.
For crit rating = 42/22.1 = Stick that back in the S2 mace and we get: 1.9%.
1.1% hit
1.9% crit
1115 AP.

Lets convert the agility on the ZA staff to crit rating and AP.
AP (49x1x1.1x1.03x1.1) = ~61.
For crit: (31.57 agi = 22.1 crit rating i think. (56/31.57 = ~1.8% crit).
So
1.6% crit
1034 AP
315 ArPen

So it comes down to how you rank Armour Penetration. I don't know how you'd even start to rank this as a stat as it changes vs the boss up to a point which makes it tough to model.

But the difference is roughly:
0.1% crit, 1.1% hit, 81 ap trade off for the 315 armour penetration. As said its tough to model but It does get better the more you stack it to a point. If thats your only armour pen item I'd be tempted to say the S2 maul was better unless you were hit capped.

 

• Vykromond

Not so, it's helm and shoulders. [Gloves of the Searing Grip] are much better than T4.

 

onkl

Depends on the helm you have available. With S3 head and breast, the T4 shoulders and gloves combo is better.

 

Deliverance

Either my memory fails me, or your crit calculation is off. As far as I recall, it is a straight 1% crit. per 25 agility at level 70. That would give the ZA staff a 49*1.1*1.03/25 ~ 2.22% crit.

That changes the trade off to 1.1% hit and 81 AP vs. 315 armour penetration and 0.3% crit, which is a trade off considerably more favourable for the ZA staff.

 

• Vykromond

Good point- I wasn't considering S3. That said, since S3 gear isn't available, aren't I still right?

 

Vaccine

Entirely possible, I'm at work so my spreadsheets for working it out are at home. I just grabbed the conversion rate off of a wowwiki article that listed a table for each class at 70.

 

Valerian

Heh

But yeah with the massive redoing of the feral PvP gear it becomes insanely good for PvE (and arguably worse for PvP...). The helm is second only to Cursed Vision I believe and the Chest is nearly on par with the T6 quality chest pieces. Basically it makes it so that druids can have essentially T6 PvE gear even if they are just starting Kara, whereas the other classes at least need to deal with the fact that most of their PvP gear is not as good as PvE gear.

 

Allev

Armor penetration scales really well with overall DPS, but that also means that it's not as good at the Kara level as it is at the endgame level (especially since you probably don't get as many buffs in Karazahn). Which means it's probably an upgrade, but it isn't really a T6 upgrade until you get full raid buffs or T6 gear.

At Toskk's site, I've managed to find situations where the S2 mace is both better and worse than the ZA staff. They're probably close enough that it doesn't really matter which you use, unless your gear is really bad (use S2) or really good (use ZA).

 

Junakit

My thoughts on the t6 issue - I recently got 4t6 and ditched 2t4 for it, and have noticed an improvement in dps, especially on certain fights. I'm still keeping 2t4 for basic tank and spanks, or at least until I get significant WWS to analyse my personal dps -- I need a few more post-2.3 parses especially from raids I'm not leading!

The "certain fights" to me covers anything where you end up away from the boss with energy filling up and rip ticking. In ZA, eagle boss or Zul'jin phase 3 spring to mind -- maybe Archimonde, though I've taken to wearing 2t5 there on the rare occasions I get to dps, for the survivability. Leo? Lurker? Gruul? It obviously depends on your tactics and playstyle, but changing to 4t6 I've noticed a general dps increase personally.

Even though I am one of the guild's three tanks I gemmed my t6 for "dps", as agility and hit are awesome for tanking, and I have enough health in BT-level gear. Using dps enchants on head and shoulders is fine with a s2 piece or the shadowmoon insignia (if it ever drops). Eventually I wouldn't mind getting backup pieces to put 15sta and def enchants on, but I've still got stamina-gemmed t5 as an option should it come to that.

Having one or two pieces of the pvp gear, gemmed with stamina, really helps open one's options for tank outfits. Crit immunity in resistance gear becomes a no-brainer and offtank sets for multiple-role fights are easy to piece together too. Trying to gear up a warrior alt at the moment and I wish they had the same sort of options -- but then they have more than three Karazhan tank drops, so I guess it evens out.

 

Garanthir

The S3 helm and chest would give you +24 hit, you could run Kara for Skulker's which have +28 hit freeing up some of your gem slots for AGI. Then you could use T4 shoulder/gloves for the 2pc. Also don't forget the new +hit food which can cover your +hit until you get S3 and/or Skulker's.