Feral Megathread - Page 37

Nathariel · 11/02/07, 9:38 PM

Now does that make it Spell level resists influenced by melee hit (17%) or melee level (9%)?

Anyway it definitely cannot hurt.

Umph · 11/02/07, 9:52 PM

Originally Posted by Thessaly

A fully blocked Lacerate refreshes the bleed stack.

Is the mechanic for refreshing the stack separate from the actual damage component? More importantly, is the threat component completely independent of the damage? If a fully blocked attack is considered to be a hit that does no damage instead of actual avoidance, it's possible that the threat is still applied. I don't know how block works, and haven't been able to find any theorycraft along these lines, since attacks that can be completely blocked are pretty rare at end game.

I thought that the threat component was associated with the damage dealt, and as such a block would not give you the threat.

Originally Posted by Nathariel

Now does that make it Spell level resists influenced by melee hit (17%) or melee level (9%)?

Anyway it definitely cannot hurt.

Judging from how often I get resists on the damn skill, I am going to be pessimistic and say 17%

.

Melthar · 11/02/07, 10:44 PM

Originally Posted by seminarca

und in Bär? Was ist mit dem Bääähääär?
That's awesome, 20% less damage once a minute for 12 secs is going to be significant. Averages out to a 4% flat damage reduction, but you can time it with a boss's special high damage skill for better effect.

The quote only lists cat and travel form. Explicitly no mention of bear form.

Dalamar · 11/02/07, 11:41 PM

Improvements to my cat form tanking(something I do much to the chagrin of all my healers on most of the BT trash) are welcome, would like to see this added to bear for some of that sexy survival button action.

Gruturistic · 11/03/07, 12:52 AM

Originally Posted by Morthis

I actually went through thinking about swipe vs lacerate again.

[...]

Swipe generates hate just equal to the damage.

At the risk of sounding as a complete idiot, shouldn't swipe's threat be modified by the bear stance?

I know it was nerfed somehwere around 2.0 to no longer have extra bonus threat, but does that include the baseline stance modifier (130% / 145 or 149.5% if talented) ?

---Before submitting, I've logged my druid and dps'd some random mobs, KTM seems to agree that swipe's damage *is* affected by bear stance: a swipe hitting for 139 brought my threat from 7876 to 8077, which is an increase of 201. 139*1.45 = 201.
So, is KTM wrong, or should we re-evaluate the breakeven point of swipe being better than lacerate at 155, down from 225?

By the way, do talents bring bear stance to 145% ( 130% + 15%) or 149.5% (130% * 115%) I remember reading that warrior talents stacked multiplicatively, and druid ones only addictively, and KTM does seem to use these values, but are they 100% confirmed or is there any doubt?

• sadris · 11/03/07, 12:52 AM

Improvements to my cat form tanking(something I do much to the chagrin of all my healers on most of the BT trash) are welcome, would like to see this added to bear for some of that sexy survival button action.

Then its cooldown would have to be vastly increased...

Morthis · 11/03/07, 1:15 AM

Originally Posted by Gruturistic

At the risk of sounding as a complete idiot, shouldn't swipe's threat be modified by the bear stance?

I know it was nerfed somehwere around 2.0 to no longer have extra bonus threat, but does that include the baseline stance modifier (130% / 145 or 149.5% if talented) ?

---Before submitting, I've logged my druid and dps'd some random mobs, KTM seems to agree that swipe's damage *is* affected by bear stance: a swipe hitting for 139 brought my threat from 7876 to 8077, which is an increase of 201. 139*1.45 = 201.
So, is KTM wrong, or should we re-evaluate the breakeven point of swipe being better than lacerate at 155, down from 225?

By the way, do talents bring bear stance to 145% ( 130% + 15%) or 149.5% (130% * 115%) I remember reading that warrior talents stacked multiplicatively, and druid ones only addictively, and KTM does seem to use these values, but are they 100% confirmed or is there any doubt?

Yeah, bear agro and talents do add to swipe threat, but those modifiers add to all threat we generate, including the static 285 that lacerate generates. So when comparing different threat moves we have, we can simply ignore those bonusses because they'd apply to both anyway.

Thessaly · 11/03/07, 1:39 AM

Originally Posted by Umph

I thought that the threat component was associated with the damage dealt, and as such a block would not give you the threat.

You'd think it wouldn't refresh the bleed stack, either. Does a blocked Devastate refresh the Sunder stack? Can a fully blocked attack proc weapon buffs like poisons or Windfury? Far as I know it's an open question, which would have a minor impact on the Swipe threshold. Not terribly important, but something I've been wondering about. Can't really think of a good way to test it, though.

HaklePrime · 11/03/07, 2:00 AM

Originally Posted by dukes

WoW -> Test Realm Patch Notes

Hardly game breaking, but pretty nice!

Holy crap! I can DE my [Nat Pagle's Broken Reel]!

I approve, and it should have been done way back when Naxx first came out.

Boevis · 11/03/07, 4:23 AM

Originally Posted by dukes

Taken from Omen's "druid.lua" which I am assumed is as close as possible to the actual threat, Lacerate has a 285 static component with a 0.2 multiplier for the damage. Assuming a lacerate hit for 30 with a crit rate of 30%, the threat generated is 285 + (0.2*30*(1+.3*2.26)) = 295 (for a bleed immune mob). Add on the bleed damage (150 per stack, or 37.5 threat per stack over 15 seconds) and you get approximately 335 threat with 0 stacks, or ~482.5 with 5 stacks.

Swipe generates threat directly from damage (i.e. a swipe for 300 does 300 threat). Assuming you want to generate 335 threat average with a crit chance of 30%, you need to do (1+0.3*2.26)*x=335 or x= 335/(1+0.3*2.26) which is approximately 200 damage.

For a bleed immune mob, it's 295/(1+0.3*2.26) = ~175 damage.
For refreshing a 5 stack, it's ~287.5 damage.

I think I originally worked it out with 25% crit chance, and approximated it to being 225 damage as an average, which looks about right from what I've just said above. As these take into account armour (lacerate is barely affected and the swipe damage is what you observe) it's quite a good approximation. For me, even with 4t6 I'm better off using lacerate on most single target trash, just because of a lack of sunders (although my crit chance is closer to 40%, so its entirely dependant on the mob or how I'm feeling - sometimes I just switch between the two for a bit of variety).

About Lacerate. Swipe is almost always better than simply spamming Lacerate (Lacerate spam being the 295 threat)

155 damage over 15 seconds per stack, stacking 5 times, effected by Mangle debuff, this works out to 201.5 per tic. I usually attempt to refresh around 7 seconds left, between the 4th and 5th tic, this allows 2 attempts to land Lacerate in case of a dodge/parry/miss on the first cast. So in essence I'm only getting 4 tics, you can never get all 5 without letting lacerate expire, and then you're wasting rage building it back up to 5.

201.5 * 4 * .2 = 161.2 + 295 = 456.2 threat. This works out to be equal to a 272 Swipe.

I could be wrong, but I don't think we'll ever see that kind of swipe in reasonable tanking gear.

Malazaar · 11/03/07, 9:31 AM

I don't know about you, might be my tanking set is more dps oriented than usual but i'm getting noncrit swipes in the range of 210-230. Add 30-40% crit on top of that and you are easily at 272 - and i'm not even wearing 4pc T6 most of the time.

It all comes down to situation eventually. Is your mob sundered / otherwise debuffed ? Do you have multiple targets ? Are you in a melee group, getting all kinds of dps buffs ? Is your tanking set a bit dps oriented ?

I usually find most of the above points favouring swipe - but that may not be the case for everyone.

Dalamar · 11/03/07, 4:32 PM

About the only thing I still lacerate on are the Flames of Azzinoth, and that is because I have nothing for crit and AP with 295FR.

Much like Malazaar I see mid range 200s noncrit swipes, this really lends credit to - Swipe > Lacerate in nearly all circumstances.

Morthis · 11/03/07, 4:47 PM

From the looks of it, assuming the mob isn't bleed immune, it's always worth keeping up lacerate for a little bit of extra tps.

seminarca · 11/03/07, 5:57 PM

Originally Posted by Melthar

The quote only lists cat and travel form. Explicitly no mention of bear form.

Gah what the hell, I had assumed the German posts about "Bär" would result in the CM posting "of course, Bear Form gets it too, what a glaring oversight because it would make absolutely no sense to restrict the form that needs it the most".

=/

Though I suppose giving it to Cat form is like making it our post-2.3 Shamanistic Rage / CloS.

Originally Posted by sadris

Then its cooldown would have to be vastly increased...

I don't think a flat 4% damage reduction if used on every cooldown is that overpowered for tanking tbh. How far ahead does Warrior mitigation pull ahead in T6 content? How much further will they get in Sunwell? Timing it well to high damage specials will only add to Druid tanking complexity, which lord knows is simple enough at the moment.

Morthis · 11/03/07, 11:17 PM

Not sure how barkskin stacks with other mitigation. If it's multiplicative it would end up being 20% damage taken instead of 25% (assuming 75% mitigation and physical damage), which isn't all that overpowered, but would be pretty strong for absorbing nasty timed attacks or spell damage.

If it's additive though (which is very doubtful), it would put us at 95% mitigation against physical, which would obviously be far too powerful for a 1 minute cooldown.

Either way, it would be nice to get some sort of oh shit button as druid.

Btw what's wrong with druid scaling atm? We're not very far in T6 yet, but so far I'm not seeing myself as a weaker tank than our warriors (except for said oh shit buttons). Granted we suffer from armor capping so quickly, but our health scales very well with stamina, and our dodge scales incredibly well with agility, so the only two things we really miss is the fact we can get crushed (a gap that does become bigger as warriors can get more and more armor while we can't) and the emergency buttons (which, next patch at least we got pot/hs as an option).