We single target necros or a few banshees first. Depending on the number of aboms we might single target 1 or 2 of those as well. By this time the tanks should have enough agro on everything else to aoe the rest. There should be plenty of time per wave that you don't need to start aoe very early.
This is very similar to how we do it. We don't use a paladin tank. We use 1 or 2 ferals, 1 to 3 prot warriors...depends who is online and a DPS warrior. All of the tanks other than the main tank wear some DPS, these mobs are level 70 or 71, not 73 like a boss, so you don't need full on defensive gear. Heck as enhance shaman, I sometimes out-aggro and simply end up tanking necros, banshees(they're not as easy as a necro) or a felhunter.
It should become pretty clear what each tank is best at tanking for each wave so there's not much vent-clutter of who gets what. Others have given hints, but since I'm a necro killer, i don't really know who's tanking what.
The dps warrior then taunts a single mob, the ranged kill that one.
Depending on the wave, we have rules like, this wave ranged has to single kill 3 mobs before AOE, that wave may only be single target 2 or single target 4. So sometimes the tanks have upwards of 30seconds before AOE starts to get aggro. This number of single target kills is what works for our guild, your guild will have to figure out if this strategy can work for you or not and just how many should be single target killed per wave.
Secondly when a mob does break free, don't let your paladins be a bunch of wimps... they can take several hits in full healing gear... have them taunt that mob at range and walk it back to the tanks. Ours have gotten lazy at this as we laugh at the DPS'r who pulled aggro, but while learning make sure they're helping out ... a bear who loses a mob and then has to charge it and get back to his other 3 or 4 mobs is highly likely about to lose some more of them. Your paladins are standing around in 10k-ish armor.. have them bring those mobs back to you. Heck have him standing near you the entire time, ours do.
For the necros.. they're painfully easy... in the pre-azgalor packs our main tank warrior uses spell reflect and just keeps using it while building threat on other mobs. The melee go and just randomly kill whatever necro they like. The ranged sometimes help kill one or two necros depending on which wave it is.
Finally the azgalor wave 6, i believe that's the one, it has way too many necros and banshees. A shaman runs way down the path and just starts dropping totems as he runs back. This kind of splits up the caster mobs a little so they don't slaughter the NPCs or your tank.
I know the original poster only asked how his bear could do better threat management, but I think perhaps his raid might want to re-think about what they could be doing during the time tanks are building aggro.
in raid situation ( having 5000 ap 50% crit 120 hit ) it is lower than +88 damage to shred idol
uptime is 85% and cycle time is about 14 sec for me taking numbers 1 agi = 3.1 kitty points
we will have 65*3.1*.85*12/14 = 146.8 it definately more than 90.
Hello,
Im a raid leader, and we are working through hyjal. My bears(who up until this point have been very good at tanking) are complaining that they cant hold multitargets in hyjal after agro sets in. Our warriors are not having much of a problem, but the bears are strugglling. I read the first post, and did a search, but was unable to find what i was looking for. I was wondering how other bears worked on h yjal trash, and how many mobs they were usually able to hold. Our bears keep just begging we use a pally tank. And while of course a pally tank would make it easier, I cant imagine there is no way for teh bears to hold threat, at least a little. So what do you guys use for threat?
We normally take 2 prot warriors and one feral to MH. The feral is for us really an improvement compared to a 3rd warrior. In the beginning we split up targets (you take aboms, me ghouls, etc) and now that goes automatically. I just move in, mangle/swpie, switch target, swipe/swipe and mangle if possible, swith target and swipe/mangle and then move out to see what I hooked. Normally 4 or 5 mobs. Then build some aggro, and move back into the AoE area with the mobs. Whenever a mob moves out of the AoE, just charge, taunt, and reel him back in. Gargoyles are taken care of dofferently of course, as are the necros. Sheeping is also used to a good extend, as is banishing the elementals.
in raid situation ( having 5000 ap 50% crit 120 hit ) it is lower than +88 damage to shred idol
uptime is 85% and cycle time is about 14 sec for me taking numbers 1 agi = 3.1 kitty points
we will have 65*3.1*.85*12/14 = 146.8 it definately more than 90.
where is flaw in my calculations ?
First off, you don't even have a theoretical uptime of 85%, unless you mangle every 10 seconds. The second problem is, that while your uptime seems high, your Rip and the Mangle itself will never receive the bonus from it - (which are ~25% of you damage). The more complex DPS calculators take that into account and thus place it a notch below the shred idol.
I have had the same issues that people are describing in Hyjal, it can be very difficult to hold aggro on several mobs, especially when Swipe is not an option (we use CC on some waves). Globally my role as a bear is not to hold aggro on the maximum number of mobs (we have 2 prot warriors and sometimes a pally for that), it is to pick at least one tough target (typically abo), some smaller targets if possible, taunt mobs off NPCs and pick up mobs that aggro our aoe guys.
A few things that helped:
- use main targets (ora2/CTraid) and pick your target early, you can a yellow-ish frame around your target so you know if somebody else has picked it too, it's useful for early distribution
- have MT/assist bind marks to F1 -> F7 or so and quickly mark targets
- have a set of focus macro so that you can easily find your current target, previous target and focus target, it can help a lot because most of the time I "lose" my targets in the chaos. If there's a way to quickly pick whichever mobs have aggro on me that would be useful as well.
If anyone is really struggling with tank agro in Hyjal, just have two priests MC necros and put you as their #1 priority for the attack speed debuff. With two of them up you get a constant stream of incoming damage from the debuff feeding you rage and your attack speed gets halved twice down to .62. We have our priests hold necros between waves when there isn't any in the next pack. Have them wear full SR gear if they fail horribly at it. We once had four priests and a bloodlust. My attack speed was down to .11. Good times.
That aside, seriously pay one of your paladins to respec every week, it's made Hyjal so much smoother and much faster for us.
About MH trash we go with 3 tanks 2 prot warr and 1 feral. In the wave with abominations we always single target 1 or 2 of them which the feral tanks and until that time our prot warr has enough time to build aggro for the aoe. We give the buff from the MCed mobs to the mellee dpsers, fury warr rogues. We also promote the tanks and the guys that cc to Master Assist to marks their mobs.
First off, you don't even have a theoretical uptime of 85%, unless you mangle every 10 seconds. The second problem is, that while your uptime seems high, your Rip and the Mangle itself will never receive the bonus from it - (which are ~25% of you damage). The more complex DPS calculators take that into account and thus place it a notch below the shred idol.
I made little mistake not 12 / 14, but 10 /14. I know rip will never receive that +65 agi, but I calculated overall damage for 10 sec, and then apply it for 14 sec cycle. (that 10/14 number is for).
You totally wrong about Rip. Thus it wont be increased agility is so good for it crit.
Rip can’t be effected by crits, and it comes that whole cycle may be besides rip and 3-4 auto attacks gaining 65 agi.
But I have another problem that I watched lately: most cases crit% is lower than should be (sometimes by far), even on non boss fights. And almost never higher.
I made little mistake not 12 / 14, but 10 /14. I know rip will never receive that +65 agi, but I calculated overall damage for 10 sec, and then apply it for 14 sec cycle. (that 10/14 number is for).
You totally wrong about Rip. Thus it wont be increased agility is so good for it crit.
Rip can’t be effected by crits, and it comes that whole cycle may be besides rip and 3-4 auto attacks gaining 65 agi.
But I have another problem that I watched lately: most cases crit% is lower than should be (sometimes by far), even on non boss fights. And almost never higher.
Its not 10/14 seconds either. Its 0.85*10/14. You can't simply throw in that value * 65 * the corresponding AEP for Agi since that AEP assumes EVERYTHING benefits from Agi (including the mangles and rips).
I have a question related to Hyjal trash. Does anyone know of a mod that will add a mobs target to its nameplate? I would like to be able to taunt off of and NPCs that pull aggro without tab targeting throught the whole mess.
Seems you have nothing common with math, and numbers at all. read my first post (where i have used 0.85 * 12/14). After it i said 12/14 should be 10/14. So the final number is ~122 kitty points.
and about that 4 second are out from mangle... this is NOT included for a reason, that is why 10/14 is used.
Cant you see it: lets say your Z time dps cycle is effected by buff A with duration X and percent B to apply.
A*B*(X/Z).
In other words do math:
3.1*65*0.85*10 is AEP for 10 sec WITH buff
0*65*0.85*4 is AEP for 4 sec WITHOUT buff (ZERO)
(3.1*65*0.85*10 + 0*65*0.85*4) / 10+4 = (3.1*65*0.85*10)/ 14~= 122
BUT effect of agi is greater for shreds than for a rip, so that number can be even higher.
Now you got it I hope?
I have a question related to Hyjal trash. Does anyone know of a mod that will add a mobs target to its nameplate? I would like to be able to taunt off of and NPCs that pull aggro without tab targeting throught the whole mess.
I tried using tags to program this into Aloft and it did not work for mobs that I was not targetting. I know it is possible to determine target target in a tooltip by mousing over, but I don't think it is possible to code something to dynamically detect the targets of mobs you are not targetting or mousing over.
Seems you have nothing common with math, and numbers at all. read my first post (where i have used 0.85 * 12/14). After it i said 12/14 should be 10/14. So the final number is ~122 kitty points.
and about that 4 second are out from mangle... this is NOT included for a reason, that is why 10/14 is used.
Cant you see it: lets say your Z time dps cycle is effected by buff A with duration X and percent B to apply.
A*B*(X/Z).
In other words do math:
3.1*65*0.85*10 is AEP for 10 sec WITH buff
0*65*0.85*4 is AEP for 4 sec WITHOUT buff (ZERO)
(3.1*65*0.85*10 + 0*65*0.85*4) / 10+4 = (3.1*65*0.85*10)/ 14~= 122
BUT effect of agi is greater for shreds than for a rip, so that number can be even higher.
Now you got it I hope?
You can grind numbers all you want, the Everbloom Idol will consistantly outperform the Idol of Terror, unless you have some ridiculous amount of ap contrasted with an extremely low crit rate. The shred idol is worth ~500 ap on shred, which is ~35-40% of overall damage, 100% of the time. The agi idol applies to ~80% of total damage, and when averaged even with supposed 85% uptime (which I also don't believe, as I mangle once every 12-14 seconds, as opposed to bear where I mangle every six), it doesn't work out to even close to the same AEP as Everbloom. Unless you are having a lot of trouble generating CP to maintain cycles, I would really recommend sticking to everbloom for dps. Even if Idol of Terror had a 100% chance to proc, it'd be inferior for pure dps, in my estimation.
I tried using tags to program this into Aloft and it did not work for mobs that I was not targetting. I know it is possible to determine target target in a tooltip by mousing over, but I don't think it is possible to code something to dynamically detect the targets of mobs you are not targetting or mousing over.
Yeah, I use TinyTip to display target of mouseover'd mob. It's not very useful for situations when you don't have a lot of visibility (tanking Hydross adds underneath him, managing large AOE packs, etc.). It works well enough for big, but not that big pulls (Shattered Halls with minimal CC, etc.).
I'm not in Hyjal yet, so I can't tell you if it does the job there.
Hey fellas. thanks for the wealth of info. I was wondering with the recent changes for +hit to affect growl and demo roar, what would be the optimal +hit for a full tanking set and at what level of endgame.
I'm a kara decked feral tank minus a gilded thorium, have all the rogue loot out of kara with +hit if I so dared to integrate. My guild is only at the kara/gruul/za level slowly introducing ourselves to SSC. I've noticed alot of unwanted growl resists in Gruuls even before 2.3 so I picked up a Waistguard of the Great Beast (+18hit) recently out of needed desperation and tossed a +4hit/agi in it with a stam so currently my +hit is sitting at a measly 22, but it is atleast better than my previous 0.
Do you think that should be ok at my level of endgame? The recent patch has made me quite self-conscience about +hit. Also I was curious of how much +hit the BT/t6 level tanks were wearing. Maybe I should start being more gear flexible for different situations? I'm always in a heavy tank set unless im cat dps of course.
I don't take thick hide in my talent build, because I sit at the armor cap as is. However, I've found myself wanting to take it so I can sub out a bit of armor for +hit, as it can be pretty valuable. Currently, I sit with +27 hit just from t6 legs, but I sub out belt and bracer for +hit purposes and it puts my threatgen through the roof. However, if my guild wasn't a bunch of aggro whores with insane gear, I probably wouldn't have to make this sacrifice. The bottom line is that hit IS valuable, but unless threat gen for you is a real problem, you're better off being a more solid tank and maybe subbing in a piece or two of +hit.
Do you think that should be ok at my level of endgame? The recent patch has made me quite self-conscience about +hit. Also I was curious of how much +hit the BT/t6 level tanks were wearing. Maybe I should start being more gear flexible for different situations? I'm always in a heavy tank set unless im cat dps of course.
At your level of gear, there is only a few things you can do.
Glyph of Ferocity (16 hit)
Brooch of Deftness (22 hit)
Waistguard of the Great Beast (18 hit)
Spicy Hot Talbuk (20 hit)
Along with Earthwarden, that will give you 76 hit rating and 11 Expertise before gems (~4.8% hit rating and 2.75% less dodges and parries). If this is your armory (you should probably add that into your profile!), then I'd suggest about all you need is maybe to swap out Darkmoon Card: Madness for Timelapse Shard (27sta, 21 resilience is pretty nice for bear tanking if you need the crit reduction) and you'd be set for crit reduction and hit rating at your level of progression.
With PVP gear, you can do a lot more. The Vengeful Gladiator's set has a lot of items with +hit on it and with a couple of those, the Vindicator's Dragonhide Bracers and a couple of druid tank rings, you can easily cap your crit reduction.
At the T6 level:
Pepe's Shroud of Pacification (25 hit)
Thunderheart Leggings (27 hit)
Pendant of Titans (20 hit and great defensive stats)
Boots of Natural Grace (14 hit)
Band of the Abyssal Lord (21 hit)
With that, plus Glyph of Ferocity and Waistguard of the Great Beast you'd be at 141 hit rating, but no Expertise.
With my current gear I'm able to sport a respectable 114 hit rating and 5 Expertise, while still being uncrittable, getting 50%+ dodge (sometimes spikes to 65%+ with Idol of Terror and Band of Tenacity going off), 19k hp, 33.5k armor and about 3000 AP in a raid situation. It also includes a Medallion of the Horde since the resilience and ability to trinket out of a stun or mind control is kind of nice. That would be 134 hit rating if I actually used the Hit food over Agi food.
I am an officer of a casual raiding guild seeking information of the value of the Darkmoon Card: Wrath trinket for Feral Druids. Everything i have read here and elsewhere, with one exception, suggests one's trinket slot would be better served by another item.
As i understand things, this is a trinket of meager value for Feral Druids seeking to do damage, either in PvE raids or PvP. Most Feral Druids already have a relatively high crit percentage - the higher one's crit rating, the less of an actual return this trinket provides, at least in and of itself.
However, I have read about a rogue who chose to avoid crit. rating on his gear, instead focusing on +Hit & AP, increasing the crit. bonus from the Wrath Card and the damage of his crits. The rogue claimed this gear strategy made the Wrath Card one of the best trinkets available for him bar none. No parses were provided to back up this claim.
Could the same tactic be a valid gear strategy for a Feral Cat seeking to do DPS as well?
I don't think so. Considering most of our crit comes from heavy agility stacking which you should do regardless then I don't see how you could end up with a purposely low crit rate to make that trinket viable but yet not have totally gimp stats.
I am an officer of a casual raiding guild seeking information of the value of the Darkmoon Card: Wrath trinket for Feral Druids. Everything i have read here and elsewhere, with one exception, suggests one's trinket slot would be better served by another item.
As i understand things, this is a trinket of meager value for Feral Druids seeking to do damage, either in PvE raids or PvP. Most Feral Druids already have a relatively high crit percentage - the higher one's crit rating, the less of an actual return this trinket provides, at least in and of itself.
However, I have read about a rogue who chose to avoid crit. rating on his gear, instead focusing on +Hit & AP, increasing the crit. bonus from the Wrath Card and the damage of his crits. The rogue claimed this gear strategy made the Wrath Card one of the best trinkets available for him bar none. No parses were provided to back up this claim.
Could the same tactic be a valid gear strategy for a Feral Cat seeking to do DPS as well?
I wouldn't think so. Cats should have the highest crit rate of any dps class/spec in the game. That makes DmC: Wrath pretty sucky.
No. For Rogues, the difference between Agility and AP is not as huge as it is for Druids. So while I suppose it may be possible for a rogue to do something very strange like that (and you'd probably have to equip some pretty inferior items to do that), it should be virtually impossible for a Druid short of one wearing nothing but "of the Bear" gear. Which would be very very bad.
Finally the azgalor wave 6, i believe that's the one, it has way too many necros and banshees. A shaman runs way down the path and just starts dropping totems as he runs back. This kind of splits up the caster mobs a little so they don't slaughter the NPCs or your tank.
We have an elem shaman and a hunter kite mobs back to Thrall and the Tauren warriors on most waves, on wave 5 we simply banish one of the felhounds so they don't reset and let the NPC's soak the first wave of spells (usually Thrall's ghost wolf totem does the trick)
We have an elem shaman and a hunter kite mobs back to Thrall and the Tauren warriors on most waves, on wave 5 we simply banish one of the felhounds so they don't reset and let the NPC's soak the first wave of spells (usually Thrall's ghost wolf totem does the trick)
Definitely. If your kiters are good at their jobs they can have every Tauren in the camp beating on the banished Felhunter at the end of the previous wave.
Just get everyone in the raid apart from the MT behind the Felhunter/Tauren spot away from the incoming mobs. The MT pops spellreflect and as soon as the mobs cast at him runs to the raid. Taurens go in and "wtfpwn" all the mobs with stuns. Your crowd control and dpstrain can take it from there while the tanks round up any strays.
We have an elem shaman and a hunter kite mobs back to Thrall and the Tauren warriors on most waves, on wave 5 we simply banish one of the felhounds so they don't reset and let the NPC's soak the first wave of spells (usually Thrall's ghost wolf totem does the trick)
That's similar to the way we do this wave. On wave 5, one of the hunters kites an abom up to the taurens, and then brings it back to the raid. Sometimes we need to make them chain kill stuff, since if they kill the abom and are too far away from another mob they will reset. So we'd put a felhound near them for example.
Then we slowly dps everything down and wait for the huge pack of casters to come from the next wave. Once they arrive the taurens get right in there and chain stun everything, which means we can just aoe it down :P
11/29/07, 3:54 AM
Similar Threads
