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10/10/07, 11:10 PM
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#46
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Von Kaiser
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Re: defense skill:
How much straight +defense does it take to become undazeable? This is an area where using +def to reach uncrittable seems to have an edge over using +resilience to do the same thing.
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10/11/07, 12:46 AM
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#47
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Piston Honda
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Originally Posted by Larisroth
As I understand it, lacerate crits will only increase the base damage component of it rather than the bonus threat, and more importantly, that initial application can be blocked, which because it's doing low damage can result in the whole hit being blocked and no threat applied.
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Lacerate applications that are wholly blocked still refresh/increase the stack. I haven't been able to systematically test whether the threat is still applied, nor seen any tests to that effect. If the block is mitigation in the same sense as dodge or parry, then it would make sense that the bonus initial threat isn't applied, but by the same reasoning, it doesn't make sense that the stack is refreshed.
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10/11/07, 1:07 AM
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#48
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Piston Honda
Orc Death Knight
Thaurissan
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Re: Lacerate
I was just going by the wowwiki description, but looking at the code for the latest version of the ace threat lib, it also has the values of 285 base threat, and then a 20% modifier on all damage. Lacerate doesn't scale with AP, so the maximum average threat you're likely to get when attacking is about 300 threat. Swipe on the other hand does scale with AP, with 7% of AP being added to your base damage. If you have good enough AP, crit and to get your average swipe damage up to more than 300 damage then it will generate more threat per attack than lacerate.
The issue is also complicated by blocks and weapon skill. Pretty much every TBC boss has a chance of blocking and will block for more than lacerate hits for and in those cases it generates no threat. Having weapon skill helps, but even at the infamous +5 level it doesn't negate block completely.
The lacerate threat issue was discussed in the bear tanking thread. Dukes came to the conclusion you need to do about 225 average damage (non crit) to generate more threat.
Last edited by Larisroth : 10/11/07 at 1:19 AM.
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10/11/07, 3:02 AM
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#50
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Von Kaiser
Night Elf Druid
Tichondrius
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Originally Posted by JulianMaiev
Re: defense skill:
How much straight +defense does it take to become undazeable? This is an area where using +def to reach uncrittable seems to have an edge over using +resilience to do the same thing.
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Daze immunity is 475 for 70s + 5 for each level up. 490 for bosses. SotF does nothing for druid daze immunity.
This is realistically unattainable for druids while tanking and you will probably see a daze or two while tanking mobs that need to move fast, yes being dazed has killed my and wiped our Illidan attempts more than once.
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10/11/07, 3:13 AM
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#51
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Von Kaiser
Night Elf Druid
Tichondrius
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Originally Posted by Larisroth
Re: Lacerate
I was just going by the wowwiki description, but looking at the code for the latest version of the ace threat lib, it also has the values of 285 base threat, and then a 20% modifier on all damage. Lacerate doesn't scale with AP, so the maximum average threat you're likely to get when attacking is about 300 threat. Swipe on the other hand does scale with AP, with 7% of AP being added to your base damage. If you have good enough AP, crit and to get your average swipe damage up to more than 300 damage then it will generate more threat per attack than lacerate.
The issue is also complicated by blocks and weapon skill. Pretty much every TBC boss has a chance of blocking and will block for more than lacerate hits for and in those cases it generates no threat. Having weapon skill helps, but even at the infamous +5 level it doesn't negate block completely.
The lacerate threat issue was discussed in the bear tanking thread. Dukes came to the conclusion you need to do about 225 average damage (non crit) to generate more threat.
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My personal standards for lacerate and swipe back when it seemed to be nearly comparable in threat -
Bleed immune I will swipe at 180 damage.
Non-Bleed immune I will swipe at 200 damage.
I used these numbers and not the 225 from Dukes stats simply because I feel I tank with a higher crit rate than most other bears.
Since I have gotten 4pt6 and my swipes often push 250 to 300 I will only ever Lacerate on mobs that are taking ridiculously low damage from melee attacks, the only one I can think of at the moment is the Bloodboil trash during shield wall phases. I use Lacerate so rarely at this point that it is quite near Rake is usefulness, preventing rogues from restealthing or vanishing in the arenas or world pvp.
Lacerate seems to be more of a spam tanking ability for non-ferals that hop into bear to hold aggro on something, and not an ability that we (ferals) are supposed to use for raiding.
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10/11/07, 4:29 AM
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#52
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Don Flamenco
Retired
Tauren Druid
No WoW Account
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One thing to keep in mind for Lacerate is the damage it does. After building up a 5 stack, one could conceivably spam Swipe and only use Lacerate to refresh the stack to keep the damage rolling.
WWS says I got:
23,442 dmg over an ~8 minute Lurker (worst case example because of having to refresh the stack after each submerge)
40,582 dmg over an ~8 minute Morogrim (better, the stack never falls)
46,494 dmg over a ~10 minute Magtheridon
It's a nontrivial amount of damage imo. I've been following the 225 figure, I believe it was calculated for a 30% crit rate.
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10/11/07, 4:55 AM
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#53
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King Hippo
Tauren Druid
Outland (EU)
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Originally Posted by seminarca
One thing to keep in mind for Lacerate is the damage it does. After building up a 5 stack, one could conceivably spam Swipe and only use Lacerate to refresh the stack to keep the damage rolling.
WWS says I got:
23,442 dmg over an ~8 minute Lurker (worst case example because of having to refresh the stack after each submerge)
40,582 dmg over an ~8 minute Morogrim (better, the stack never falls)
46,494 dmg over a ~10 minute Magtheridon
It's a nontrivial amount of damage imo. I've been following the 225 figure, I believe it was calculated for a 30% crit rate.
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This is what I do. Simply stack the stack and then use swipe, only lacerating whenever the stack is about to fall. I think it is by far the best threat for your time you can get. This is of course in unlimited threat situations.
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There is light at the end of the tunnel.
The only problem is, it's often an incoming train.
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10/11/07, 4:57 AM
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#54
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Banned
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is it possible to macro two seperate on use trinkets to a single rip macro?
Ive tried
/use 13
/use 14
/cast rip
but it only works when 13 is on CD
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10/11/07, 5:03 AM
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#55
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Back in teh house
Farrstrider
Tauren Druid
No WoW Account (EU)
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Most on-use trinkets have some sort of shared cooldown. Check if you can activate them both seperately immediately one after the other, and still hit rip straight away. If you can, I'm not sure why that macro wouldn't work.
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<Fric> I think the only kind of gay buttsex I'd enjoy on any level would be assraping a smug hipster douchebag (also possibly a roid head and/or fratboy/Jersey Shore cast member)
<Zyla> If there's gonna be a dick in the room besides my own, i'd rather it have to be my brother's. You know that kinda sounds bad all typed out like that,
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10/11/07, 5:05 AM
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#56
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Piston Honda
Night Elf Druid
Dragonblight
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Originally Posted by Boevis
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I don't go into the non-set items because they tend to drastically complicate the discussion. It was intended strictly to illustrate the best T4 pieces to wear as compared to T5&6. Besides, those are all not 5 piece slots and not what I was talking about. While you can shuffle some gems off into those pieces, and you should, the primary effect of wearing those on the analysis is shifting the hit differences on the helms and shoulders into agility differences. Or str/crit differences in the case of the T4 helm, but that's the only place I'd voluntarily put a str/crit gem.
As for hit, I believe very strongly that you should always be hit capped when possible. Even for ferals, my spreadsheet shows better returns point for point than anything else even though hit doesn't have the overwhelming lead that it does for rogues. Yes, you can use agi/hit gems if you want to cut some hit, but that doesn't really change the comparisons a whole lot except in helm/shoulder differences and those aren't exactly major. Yes, str/crit gems can be used instead if you already happen to be hit capped but they're pretty bad as opposed to the other yellow options. I've always had to struggle to get to the hit cap, but my raid runs 4 rogues, 2 dps warriors, a enh shaman, and 4 hunters in the roster so getting hit jewelry was not easy.
Last edited by The Grog : 10/11/07 at 5:17 AM.
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10/11/07, 5:16 AM
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#57
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Piston Honda
Night Elf Druid
Dragonblight
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The common double use trinkets for druids are a bloodlust/crystalforged combo, and those do have a lockout timer on them. Er, you may also need stopcasting commands in there.
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10/11/07, 8:19 AM
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#58
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Von Kaiser
Tauren Death Knight
Eredar (EU)
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My trinket macro:
/stopcasting
/use Crystalforged Trinket
/stopcasting
/use Bloodlust Brooch
/stopcasting
/cast Rip(Rank 7)
works perfectly
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10/11/07, 9:50 AM
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#59
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Glass Joe
Tauren Druid
Earthen Ring
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Originally Posted by Weidekuh
My trinket macro:
/stopcasting
/use Crystalforged Trinket
/stopcasting
/use Bloodlust Brooch
/stopcasting
/cast Rip(Rank 7)
works perfectly
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I finally decided to try this macro yesterday and I have to say I love it. However, if you don't have those trinkets equipped or if they're on cooldown, the macro will generate errors. To get rid of those errors, you can use the following script line. Just add it after each instance of the /use command.
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
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10/11/07, 2:08 PM
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#60
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Von Kaiser
Tauren Druid
The Forgotten Coast
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Originally Posted by Weidekuh
My trinket macro:
/stopcasting
/use Crystalforged Trinket
/stopcasting
/use Bloodlust Brooch
/stopcasting
/cast Rip(Rank 7)
works perfectly
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That seems like a nice macro, I might try that without the Crystalforged Trinket because I am using hourglass.
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