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11/29/07, 1:23 AM
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#946
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Glass Joe
Night Elf Druid
Earthen Ring
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Originally Posted by seminarca
Really? I'd be curious to see the spreadsheets which value expertise so highly. Running Toskk's sim with 3000 AP, 35% crit, 120 hit rating, 7 weapon damage, 0 expertise/APen/Haste, Everbloom Idol, Relentless and 2t4, I get the following AEP values:
str 2.27
agi 2.69
exp 1.61
Which puts Ancestral Ring of Conquest at 128.93 AEP and Shapeshifter's Signet at 99.21 AEP.
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I was using the spreadsheet linked at the beginning of this thread. Voldin's modified version of the rogue spreadsheet. It goes and calculates relative weighting of stats based on your current gear.
I suspect the proper way of calculating expertise may vary depending on how useful you consider negating the parry chance -- which only happens when you are attacking from the front. If Toskk is counting it as 0, and Voldin is considering it as equivalent to the dodge negation, it would pretty much account for that difference.
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Ghoselle.
Feral Druid.
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11/29/07, 1:35 AM
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#947
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Piston Honda
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Originally Posted by Taurmaim
How are you going about initially picking out targets for each tank? Is it run in, grab what you can, then build on those targets? Or are there certain types of mobs (say, a tank on crypt fiends, one on ghouls, and one on aboms type thing) that you assign to each tank?
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I call out the composition of each wave as it comes, more so that I can make sure the right number get shackled and sheeped, but it also gives the tanks a heads up. We typically run with three warriors, myself, and another bear. On waves without Aboms, we pretty much just pick a few and it self-organizes. We shackle all but three Aboms, and the three tanks who aren't me pick up the ones who don't get shackled. The other bear usually grabs the rightmost, one warrior gets leftmost, and the other warrior gets whatever is left. Sometimes there's a moment of confusion, but it gets sorted out quickly. Once they get a hit or two on the Abom, they're usually looking for any loose mobs that I haven't grabbed. The left-right thing was something they sorted out themselves, but it's worked wonders for us.
I usually end up with 3-5 mobs, which as people above have posted, I just rotate through, making sure I land a mangle or a maul before switching targets, and swiping every GCD that's not a mangle. Staying away from other mobs helps a lot, especially if you use nameplates, as it makes it much easier to establish a rotation. Once you get them all mixed up with the other tanks, it's a lot harder, but debuffs are a good way to track them.
Another thing I can't emphasize enough is using a hybrid set of tank and dps gear. Nothing hits so hard that you need full tank gear, but if you're going to be holding more than one Abom, you'll want something more than just dps, since those stuns can be brutal. A [Bloodlust Brooch] that you can pop for some extra dmg on Swipe early on, combined with a defensive on use for when you get an extra Abom. I stack a bit of hit as well, [Band of the Abyssal Lord] and [Frayed Tether of the Drowned].
Last edited by Thessaly : 11/29/07 at 1:52 AM.
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11/29/07, 2:25 AM
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#948
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Bald Bull
Tauren Druid
Lightbringer
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Originally Posted by monstor
The 2pc T5 set is amazing, I've been able to save myself or another person so many times in a raid, when the healers were not able to heal, I think it helps a lot when needed, considering raid buffed you are usually around 8K mana pool.
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This may seem contrary to my previous posts, but 2 T5 shouldn't be part of your "DPS" gear. It exists for those 5 or so Bosses where healer mana is extremely strained and multiple things can happen at once that will result in someone dying without an instant heal. You may think that "as a hybrid, it's my job to do what I can to make healing easier for other people" It's not, your job is to DPS. There aren't many fights where your 2k heal are going to be dramatic. I don't mean "saving someone's life" I mean, "saving someone's life, 600 healer mana, and 1.5 seconds of their time"
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11/29/07, 3:02 AM
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#949
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Don Flamenco
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Originally Posted by Lambach
Hello,
Im a raid leader, and we are working through hyjal. My bears(who up until this point have been very good at tanking) are complaining that they cant hold multitargets in hyjal after agro sets in. Our warriors are not having much of a problem, but the bears are strugglling. I read the first post, and did a search, but was unable to find what i was looking for. I was wondering how other bears worked on h yjal trash, and how many mobs they were usually able to hold. Our bears keep just begging we use a pally tank. And while of course a pally tank would make it easier, I cant imagine there is no way for teh bears to hold threat, at least a little. So what do you guys use for threat?
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We don't have many threat issues in Hyjal. We usually use a prot warrior, 2 ferals, and a dps warrior in tank gear. On most waves our prot warrior goes in first for the initial agro and healers precast on him. I run in directly behind him, FFF something out of reach and charge/swip right behind the MT. The prot war tanks the necros or banshees, ferals tank abominations and/or crypt fiends, dps warrior picks up others. I can take up to 3 aboms roughly or a bunch of fiends/ghouls easily (2t4/3t5). Shackle aboms first or banshees available. Be very careful using lacerate in the beginning to let shackles hold and keep readjusting to not break shackles with swipe.
We single target necros or a few banshees first. Depending on the number of aboms we might single target 1 or 2 of those as well. By this time the tanks should have enough agro on everything else to aoe the rest. There should be plenty of time per wave that you don't need to start aoe very early.
Last edited by Mijae : 11/29/07 at 3:14 AM.
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11/29/07, 3:47 AM
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#950
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Von Kaiser
Night Elf Druid
Bloodhoof (EU)
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This might be slight derail and probably not what you really want to hear, but I suggest you start gearing up some semi-prot paladin just for the few thrash waves in hyjal (even if you dont want some full time prot one). It just makes the whole thing way more comfortable. In the previous post, you got the tanking of the thrash from druid / warr POV pretty covered, the paladin as a backup just gives it bit of edge, cause the consecration can hold mobs in place which would otherwise run out and break the group cause tanks would need to chase it to get it back.
Just try to get all the protadin drops in BT to some of your holy (ret?) paladins and after few weeks they will be easily able to help out enough with the thrash to remove that kind of problems which you mentioned and make it more comforable experience for your bear squad.
/derail off
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11/29/07, 3:54 AM
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#951
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Piston Honda
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Originally Posted by Mijae
We single target necros or a few banshees first. Depending on the number of aboms we might single target 1 or 2 of those as well. By this time the tanks should have enough agro on everything else to aoe the rest. There should be plenty of time per wave that you don't need to start aoe very early.
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This is very similar to how we do it. We don't use a paladin tank. We use 1 or 2 ferals, 1 to 3 prot warriors...depends who is online and a DPS warrior. All of the tanks other than the main tank wear some DPS, these mobs are level 70 or 71, not 73 like a boss, so you don't need full on defensive gear. Heck as enhance shaman, I sometimes out-aggro and simply end up tanking necros, banshees(they're not as easy as a necro) or a felhunter.
It should become pretty clear what each tank is best at tanking for each wave so there's not much vent-clutter of who gets what. Others have given hints, but since I'm a necro killer, i don't really know who's tanking what.
The dps warrior then taunts a single mob, the ranged kill that one.
Depending on the wave, we have rules like, this wave ranged has to single kill 3 mobs before AOE, that wave may only be single target 2 or single target 4. So sometimes the tanks have upwards of 30seconds before AOE starts to get aggro. This number of single target kills is what works for our guild, your guild will have to figure out if this strategy can work for you or not and just how many should be single target killed per wave.
Secondly when a mob does break free, don't let your paladins be a bunch of wimps... they can take several hits in full healing gear... have them taunt that mob at range and walk it back to the tanks. Ours have gotten lazy at this as we laugh at the DPS'r who pulled aggro, but while learning make sure they're helping out ... a bear who loses a mob and then has to charge it and get back to his other 3 or 4 mobs is highly likely about to lose some more of them. Your paladins are standing around in 10k-ish armor.. have them bring those mobs back to you. Heck have him standing near you the entire time, ours do.
For the necros.. they're painfully easy... in the pre-azgalor packs our main tank warrior uses spell reflect and just keeps using it while building threat on other mobs. The melee go and just randomly kill whatever necro they like. The ranged sometimes help kill one or two necros depending on which wave it is.
Finally the azgalor wave 6, i believe that's the one, it has way too many necros and banshees. A shaman runs way down the path and just starts dropping totems as he runs back. This kind of splits up the caster mobs a little so they don't slaughter the NPCs or your tank.
I know the original poster only asked how his bear could do better threat management, but I think perhaps his raid might want to re-think about what they could be doing during the time tanks are building aggro.
Good luck in Hyjal.
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11/29/07, 4:43 AM
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#952
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Glass Joe
Tauren Druid
Turalyon (EU)
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The Druid Wiki » ToskksDPSGearMethod good source of dps gear list
But i wonder why New badge idol (+65 agi for 10 sec) is so teribly low there?
in raid situation ( having 5000 ap 50% crit 120 hit ) it is lower than +88 damage to shred idol
uptime is 85% and cycle time is about 14 sec for me taking numbers 1 agi = 3.1 kitty points
we will have 65*3.1*.85*12/14 = 146.8 it definately more than 90.
where is flaw in my calculations ?
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11/29/07, 5:16 AM
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#953
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Glass Joe
Tauren Druid
Dragonblight (EU)
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Originally Posted by Lambach
Hello,
Im a raid leader, and we are working through hyjal. My bears(who up until this point have been very good at tanking) are complaining that they cant hold multitargets in hyjal after agro sets in. Our warriors are not having much of a problem, but the bears are strugglling. I read the first post, and did a search, but was unable to find what i was looking for. I was wondering how other bears worked on h yjal trash, and how many mobs they were usually able to hold. Our bears keep just begging we use a pally tank. And while of course a pally tank would make it easier, I cant imagine there is no way for teh bears to hold threat, at least a little. So what do you guys use for threat?
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We normally take 2 prot warriors and one feral to MH. The feral is for us really an improvement compared to a 3rd warrior. In the beginning we split up targets (you take aboms, me ghouls, etc) and now that goes automatically. I just move in, mangle/swpie, switch target, swipe/swipe and mangle if possible, swith target and swipe/mangle and then move out to see what I hooked. Normally 4 or 5 mobs. Then build some aggro, and move back into the AoE area with the mobs. Whenever a mob moves out of the AoE, just charge, taunt, and reel him back in. Gargoyles are taken care of dofferently of course, as are the necros. Sheeping is also used to a good extend, as is banishing the elementals.
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11/29/07, 6:02 AM
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#954
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Don Flamenco
Tauren Druid
Gul'dan (EU)
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Originally Posted by Dyvozvir
The Druid Wiki � ToskksDPSGearMethod good source of dps gear list
But i wonder why New badge idol (+65 agi for 10 sec) is so teribly low there?
in raid situation ( having 5000 ap 50% crit 120 hit ) it is lower than +88 damage to shred idol
uptime is 85% and cycle time is about 14 sec for me taking numbers 1 agi = 3.1 kitty points
we will have 65*3.1*.85*12/14 = 146.8 it definately more than 90.
where is flaw in my calculations ?
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First off, you don't even have a theoretical uptime of 85%, unless you mangle every 10 seconds. The second problem is, that while your uptime seems high, your Rip and the Mangle itself will never receive the bonus from it - (which are ~25% of you damage). The more complex DPS calculators take that into account and thus place it a notch below the shred idol.
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11/29/07, 6:18 AM
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#955
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Piston Honda
Tauren Druid
Karazhan (EU)
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I have had the same issues that people are describing in Hyjal, it can be very difficult to hold aggro on several mobs, especially when Swipe is not an option (we use CC on some waves). Globally my role as a bear is not to hold aggro on the maximum number of mobs (we have 2 prot warriors and sometimes a pally for that), it is to pick at least one tough target (typically abo), some smaller targets if possible, taunt mobs off NPCs and pick up mobs that aggro our aoe guys.
A few things that helped:
- use main targets (ora2/CTraid) and pick your target early, you can a yellow-ish frame around your target so you know if somebody else has picked it too, it's useful for early distribution
- have MT/assist bind marks to F1 -> F7 or so and quickly mark targets
- have a set of focus macro so that you can easily find your current target, previous target and focus target, it can help a lot because most of the time I "lose" my targets in the chaos. If there's a way to quickly pick whichever mobs have aggro on me that would be useful as well.
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11/29/07, 6:25 AM
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#956
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Piston Honda
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If anyone is really struggling with tank agro in Hyjal, just have two priests MC necros and put you as their #1 priority for the attack speed debuff. With two of them up you get a constant stream of incoming damage from the debuff feeding you rage and your attack speed gets halved twice down to .62. We have our priests hold necros between waves when there isn't any in the next pack. Have them wear full SR gear if they fail horribly at it. We once had four priests and a bloodlust. My attack speed was down to .11. Good times.
That aside, seriously pay one of your paladins to respec every week, it's made Hyjal so much smoother and much faster for us.
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11/29/07, 6:37 AM
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#957
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Piston Honda
Tauren Druid
Genjuros (EU)
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About MH trash we go with 3 tanks 2 prot warr and 1 feral. In the wave with abominations we always single target 1 or 2 of them which the feral tanks and until that time our prot warr has enough time to build aggro for the aoe. We give the buff from the MCed mobs to the mellee dpsers, fury warr rogues. We also promote the tanks and the guys that cc to Master Assist to marks their mobs.
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11/29/07, 10:12 AM
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#958
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Glass Joe
Tauren Druid
Turalyon (EU)
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First off, you don't even have a theoretical uptime of 85%, unless you mangle every 10 seconds. The second problem is, that while your uptime seems high, your Rip and the Mangle itself will never receive the bonus from it - (which are ~25% of you damage). The more complex DPS calculators take that into account and thus place it a notch below the shred idol.
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I made little mistake not 12 / 14, but 10 /14. I know rip will never receive that +65 agi, but I calculated overall damage for 10 sec, and then apply it for 14 sec cycle. (that 10/14 number is for).
You totally wrong about Rip. Thus it wont be increased agility is so good for it crit.
Rip can’t be effected by crits, and it comes that whole cycle may be besides rip and 3-4 auto attacks gaining 65 agi.
But I have another problem that I watched lately: most cases crit% is lower than should be (sometimes by far), even on non boss fights. And almost never higher.
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11/29/07, 10:19 AM
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#959
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King Hippo
Night Elf Druid
Blackhand
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Originally Posted by Dyvozvir
I made little mistake not 12 / 14, but 10 /14. I know rip will never receive that +65 agi, but I calculated overall damage for 10 sec, and then apply it for 14 sec cycle. (that 10/14 number is for).
You totally wrong about Rip. Thus it wont be increased agility is so good for it crit.
Rip can’t be effected by crits, and it comes that whole cycle may be besides rip and 3-4 auto attacks gaining 65 agi.
But I have another problem that I watched lately: most cases crit% is lower than should be (sometimes by far), even on non boss fights. And almost never higher.
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Its not 10/14 seconds either. Its 0.85*10/14. You can't simply throw in that value * 65 * the corresponding AEP for Agi since that AEP assumes EVERYTHING benefits from Agi (including the mangles and rips).
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11/29/07, 10:59 AM
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#960
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Glass Joe
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I have a question related to Hyjal trash. Does anyone know of a mod that will add a mobs target to its nameplate? I would like to be able to taunt off of and NPCs that pull aggro without tab targeting throught the whole mess.
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