108 hit only. Unless You plan to put 4 +10 hit gems.
Being hit capped isn't needed to do top DPS.
It is useful in making the cycles more predictable for the player.
If you had read through the first posts you would have found this link to a thread which explains why.
Being hit capped isn't needed to do top DPS. It is useful in making the cycles more predictable for the player.
That's a case of which theorycraft and dumbed-down modelling cannot factor enough variables. From more than several months of end game expirience and dpsing there's nothing more important than keeping a 100% perfect cycle, not having hit cap gives you such variations in your energy, cycle and GCD that you lose more DPS than you would ever get by focusing on other stats. The two steps to predictable stable high dps is to get as close to 100% hit as you can and keeping your crit as high as you can whilst doing it.
That's a case of which theorycraft and dumbed-down modelling cannot factor enough variables. From more than several months of end game expirience and dpsing there's nothing more important than keeping a 100% perfect cycle, not having hit cap gives you such variations in your energy, cycle and GCD that you lose more DPS than you would ever get by focusing on other stats. The two steps to predictable stable high dps is to get as close to 100% hit as you can and keeping your crit as high as you can whilst doing it.
Agreed. I hate missing rip and then mangling anyway because my cycle was on auto pilot and I was paying attention to the fight instead. 40 energy poorly spent.
I'm not sure I will believe this until I've had a chance to try it myself, but I've come here to ask if there is any confirmation, and if so, to see what it's theorycrafted to be worth. The idea of having such a useful debuff in PvP is very appealing, for example, but my guess is that the 150 frost damage would have to proc an awful lot before it was better than 35 agi in a pure PvE damage race.
Thanks for any information, even if it's only to confirm it doesn't really work.
It procs from "damaging spells and mellee hits" so it might work. I still dont know if it stacks with thundeclap and its uptime. I think that it will be easier to surpass 35agi as a tanking enchant rather than as a dps.
It procs from "damaging spells and mellee hits" so it might work. I still dont know if it stacks with thundeclap and its uptime. I think that it will be easier to surpass 35agi as a tanking enchant rather than as a dps.
I can't see it stacking with Thunderclap. That sort of attack speed reduction is hugely powerful in PvE and Blizzard specifically prevented the Thunderfury debuff and Hurricane debuffs from stacking in this way. Of course things like this have been known to creep through in the past
But hit rating doesn't account for dodges, so unless you're both expertise capped AND hit capped, there will always be some measure of unpredictability in your cycle as far as attacks not landing. Someone mentioned it earlier in the thread, but I think its worth repeating that Agi and hit rating (up to 142) are both good stats and you should try to get as much of both as you can without sacraficing too much of one for the other. Nothing will play out exactly like a simulation, and its true you can do top DPS without being hit capped - its just a choice of how much you want to leave to the RNG.
I don't personally care about being capped if I have to sacrafice too much to achieve it, but there are times when a miss can really bite you in the ass. I'm at 124 hit rating in my current DPS gear and I can recall a fight not too long ago where I missed 5 attacks the entire fight: 3 white hits and 2 rips. Ouch. Since then, I've alternated between using warp burgers and spicy talbuk as my dps food of choice - but can't say I've seen an appreciable difference either way. With similar group comps from week to week on the same bosses, my dps (irregardless of being hit capped or having 20 extra agi) has stayed in pretty much the same ballpark.
I just got Grips of Deftness from Karazhan last night. I also got the T4 helm, so I now can have the 2 piece T4 set bonus. I know that normally the grips would be better DPS, especially with my lack of hit, but does the 2 piece set bonus make wearing the malorne gloves worthwhile?
I just got Grips of Deftness from Karazhan last night. I also got the T4 helm, so I now can have the 2 piece T4 set bonus. I know that normally the grips would be better DPS, especially with my lack of hit, but does the 2 piece set bonus make wearing the malorne gloves worthwhile?
Did you even bother reading this thread before you posted in it? Perhaps the first post few posts, or hell, any of the other posts where people are talking about keeping 2t4 into t6 content?
edit: and this isn't directed strictly at you, but if I see too many more stupid questions (aka those that can be answered CLEARLY within the first 3 posts of this thread) I'm going to start personally asking for more harsh infractions on people. Dukes (and many others) have put alot of effort into taking all but probably 95% of the useful information found in this thread and put it in the first few posts. There are other class threads that aren't this easy to read for someone clicking on it for the first time and if people continue to clutter this thread with stupid posts I'm just going to lose it.
If you wanted more hit from that dps gear list posted before, would it be reasonable to swap the Bladed Chaos Tunic with the Carapace of Sun and Shadow chest?
You lose 38 crit rating and 210 armor pen, for 38 haste and 30 hit rating. But it does make up for a good chunk of the missing hit.
Are the armor values of the Sunwell loot correct? I thought base armor scales directly with item level. It's seems silly to continue wearing the BoE Badge for tanking in Sunwell...
Does the Feral Sunwell loot have too much intellect? Wouldn't 100% of the intellect budge be better spent on hit or expertise?
2% hit (approximately what's missing) is a miss once in every 50 hits. Let's say you compensate for this every other time, but you mess up every other time-- so it affects one out of every 100 cycles. That's once every 1200 seconds, or 20 minutes. You're changing one shred into a mangle by doing this, and possibly losing a CP. Is it fair to say that the long-term difference here is 1-2 DPS? Or in other words, turning a shred and 1 CP into a mangle is around 1200-2400 damage?
If you take a similar scenario with turning the shred after a mangle from buffed to unbuffed, and estimating average shred damage around 3000, you lose 690 damage every 20 minutes for about a .5 DPS loss.
While these might subjectively be bothersome, adding these factors into the base value of hit rating still doesn't make hit rating more valuable than agility, point-for-point. And the better you play, the less of a factor they become.
With the new feral gear in sunwell, it appears that ferals will no longer have to use much of the same armor (aka 8 leather pieces) to dps and tank in other than the T6 bracers/belt/boots. Due to no longer having to think about socketing your gear for dps, what kind of sockets would you use for the new tanking gear? Would the +15 Stam gems outweigh the bonuses or would most still choose a +5 agi, +7 stam gem over that? Thank you.
As far as gemming 15 sta vs. 5 agi/7 sta, you really have to consider what your role is. If you're mostly MTing, and on trash, tanking one of the last mobs to be killed, 15 sta might be the way to go. If you're MTing a fight or two, but mostly OTing and tanking first assist targets on trash, 5 agi/7 sta seems like the way to go. Looking at the little information we have about the tanking requirements in the Sunwell, it doesn't seem like our role is going to change enormously, so I'd say keep wrestling the Amethysts away from your healers.
108 hit only. Unless You plan to put 4 +10 hit gems.
First of all - theoretically - hit is not a real good dps stat for us (as discussed before). While you want as little misses as possible for maximum reliability and stability, you will never achieve it completely, unless you have tons of expertise (due to dodge). So in most cases it's not worth going over the cap as you effectively waste a few points hitrating - instead you want to get as close as possible (so you don't waste points and still have almost no misses).
Not to mention that in the numerous cases you don't fight lvl73 mobs (trash, adds) you only need 6 % hit anyway.
In this particular case it's 104 hit on the gear alone. You need to add the Helm Enchant (16 Hitrating) and 2x 5 Agi / 5 Hitrating Gems and you're at 130 hitrating ( 8.7 % Hit). So it's not quite as bad as you think.
In this thread I posted a list of what I believe is currently our best avoidance gear (and buffs). Nobody as far as I am aware has yet managed to compile all of it to test, but it seems that 100% physical avoidance is already possible.
I will update a list with 2.4 gear here.
Assumptions:
Player base dodge chance = 0
Boss base miss chance = 5%
Druid base agility = 75
For a druid, 14.7059 agi yields 1% dodge (12.9796 agi on gear -> 14.7059 agi with Survival of the Fittest talent + Blessing of Kings buff)
For any player, 18.9231 dodge rating yields 1% dodge
Player has 350 defense skill before gear
For any player, 2.36 defense rating yields 1 defense skill
Defense skill is floored
For any player, 1 defense skill yields 0.04% chance to be missed + 0.04% chance to dodge
Boss weapon skill = 365, effectively negating the first 15 player defense skill beyond the level-70 standard 350. (Need to clarify this. The 5% base miss chance for a boss seems to be against a player with equal (i.e. 365) defense skill, which would be perfectly clear, but sometimes sources seem to incorporate these assumptions inconsistently.)
Based on the above values, one can rank gear choices for a slot with these ratings:
1 agi = 0.0770
1 defense rating = 0.0339
1 dodge rating = 0.0528
[Grimgrin Faceguard] = 70 agi [Mask of the Fury Hunter] (formerly the far better "Mask of the Furry Hunter") = 72 agi if the meta-gem is activated, which would cost more than 2 agi on other gear. A druid with access to everything in this list might trade this bit of excess avoidance for the gains it otherwise provides. [Schematic: Quad Deathblow X44 Goggles] = 83 agi if the meta-gem is activated. Since this item and [Leggings of the Immortal Beast] can both swap a [Delicate Crimson Spinel] to a [Shifting Shadowsong Amethyst] for a 4 agi socket bonus, getting the necessary 2 blues at a cost of only 2 agi, and 2 spinels anywhere can be swapped to [Glinting Pyrestone]s at a cost of 10 agi even if there is no bonus available, activating the meta-gem costs at most 12 agi total. With [Insidious Bands], one yellow can be gained at a cost of only 3 agi, lowering the total cost to 10. So an engineer can net 73 agi on helm (3 better), or 71 (1 better) if using [Ravager's Wrist-Wraps]. [Item not found!] = 16 def + 17 dodge
Did you even bother reading this thread before you posted in it? Perhaps the first post few posts, or hell, any of the other posts where people are talking about keeping 2t4 into t6 content?
edit: and this isn't directed strictly at you, but if I see too many more stupid questions (aka those that can be answered CLEARLY within the first 3 posts of this thread) I'm going to start personally asking for more harsh infractions on people. Dukes (and many others) have put alot of effort into taking all but probably 95% of the useful information found in this thread and put it in the first few posts. There are other class threads that aren't this easy to read for someone clicking on it for the first time and if people continue to clutter this thread with stupid posts I'm just going to lose it.
Yes, and the first post several times over. From what I can tell those are newer gloves so I couldn't find much information on them, nor is there a single mention of them in this thread. Also, I was asking about my specific situation where I lack +hit since I have only started gearing myself for feral recently. Most references about the two piece tier 4 bonus are in regards to it scaling well with gear, and specifically in terms of having the shoulders as part of that set, not the helm and hands. My gear applies to neither of those situations. So I don't think it was that out of line to ask my question.
Is there a way to attach files to posts? I hand jammed most of the new items into rawr (I'll share if somebody can find an easy way to do it), and found these results:
2pcT4/4pcT6, 4pcT6, and just straight taking the best item in each slot are very close theoretically. One changed buff, or a mistimed mangle could change the order around.
Personally I prefer 2pc/4pc. It lets me get the most mileage out of the gear I already have and allows rogues to pick up their upgrades first. If you are going to do 2pc/4pc, the best is t4 hat/shoulder, and t6 glove/belt/boot/bracer. Gemming/enchanting those 4 slots of T6 for DPS doesn't really interfere with using them for tanking, unless you really need def on the bracer. Also, in this set the crafted chestpiece is theoretically equal to the drop - by passing on both chest and head to rogues, you may have a chance of getting those hot hot pants sooner.
Yes, and the first post several times over. From what I can tell those are newer gloves so I couldn't find much information on them, nor is there a single mention of them in this thread. Also, I was asking about my specific situation where I lack +hit since I have only started gearing myself for feral recently. Most references about the two piece tier 4 bonus are in regards to it scaling well with gear, and specifically in terms of having the shoulders as part of that set, not the helm and hands. My gear applies to neither of those situations. So I don't think it was that out of line to ask my question.
Those gloves have been in the game since TBC. AFAIK, no new loot has been added to Kara since TBC's debut (and no changes since item levels went up). They simply haven't been mentioned because they're not notable.
The relevant content in the first post is using DPS calculators to figure these things out instead of just asking. With the exception of some preference for hit rating/expertise, the calculators (Toskk's or Rawr, Voldin's sheet, etc) encompass anything we could tell you, will give you a much faster response, and provide a bevy of answers to similar questions in the future, albeit with more work on your end.
Or, you even could have armory'd some druids here and seen that if they're wearing DPS gear, it's either 2t4 or 4t6, and take it as evidence that it's worth it.
Or, you could've just looked at what the bonus did and realized that it returns you energy, which is pretty obviously worth a lot of stat points.
The point is, by asking the question, you've shown that you're not willing or not able to acquire any of the above knowledge on your own. Responding to your post clogs the forum, further increasing the "noise" of the forum and keeping it from having any meaningful discussion.
Those gloves have been in the game since TBC. AFAIK, no new loot has been added to Kara since TBC's debut (and no changes since item levels went up).
Those gloves were dagger skill originally, so were pretty much rogue-only. When they switched to expertise in 2.2, they became good for druids as well.
Everbloom idol is 88 damage per shred. Assuming you shred once per 4 seconds (general average based on using some energy for mangles/rips, losing some through dodges/etc), that gives 25-30 DPS factoring in crits and armour reduction and everything else.
Idol of the Raven Goddess gives +0.4% crit to everyone in the party. Assuming an average person in your party does 1500 DPS with a direct 1%crit->1% damage ratio (which isn't far off), it's a gain of ~6DPS per member of your group, or 24 DPS + your own gain (more likely to be 4-5 or so). Remember that it's ~6DPS per physical DPS member of your group! Obviously if you're in a group with 2 hunters, a shadowpriest and a resto shaman, it's value decreases massively and you'd be better off using everbloom.
1500 DPS per person might be a bit conservative based on today's parses, but keeping with the original numbers, 20 crit rating gives ~0.9% crit. Again, keeping with the 1%crit->1% damage ratio as per the OP, each person gains 13.5 dps for a total party gain of (13.5 * 4) + ~11 dps for yourself = 65 dps, vs the 25-30 dps estimated for Everbloom.
Also, I'd think about changing the following text:
I have a feeling that the Raven Goddess will become better as gear goes up, as it scales pretty well (including in to WotLK if they don't actually itemise idols properly).
Whilst it's true that Raven Goddess will become better as the people you group with do more dps, it won't scale into WotLK due to it having crit rating instead of a static crit% chance. Ratings are sure scale down from 70 to 80 (e.g. 14 crit rating for 1% crit at 60 vs 22.1 crit rating for 1% crit at 70).
02/12/08, 9:16 AM
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