Mijae

Based on initial numbers in my model, here's the max dps set I've been able to throw together.

[Stanchion of Primal Instinct] (35agi, 12dam, 14cr)
[Duplicitous Guise] (16hit/34ap, RED, 10agi)
[Hard Khorium Choker] (10hit)
[Thunderheart Pauldrons] (10cr/30ap, 5str/5agi, 5agi/5hit)
[Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape] (12agi)
[Bladed Chaos Tunic] (6stats, 5str/4agi, 10agi, 5agi/5hit)
[Thunderheart Wristguards] (12str, 10agi)
[Gloves of Immortal Dusk] (15agi, 10agi, 10agi)
[Thunderheart Waistguard] (10agi)
[Leggings of the Immortal Night] (12cr/50ap, 10agi, 10agi, 10agi)
[Thunderheart Treads] (12agi, 10agi)
[Signet of Primal Wrath]
[Hard Khorium Band]
[Shard of Contempt] (assuming 1 ppm)
[Dragonspine Trophy]

Raid Buffs: Kings, Imp Might, Imp GoA, Imp SoE, UR, Imp BS, Blood Frenzy, Imp hunter mark, FF, CoR, 5xSunder

Est. Stats: 6326ap (avg), 56.73% crit, 141 hit, 64 exp (4%), 172 haste, 5315 pen

Shred spamming with a mangle bot, I calc this at 2172 dps on Gorefiend. Note: the necklace is JC only with a JC only gem. [Choker of Serrated Blades] is 2nd best imo, but would leave the set further short on hit.

At this point I have to agree that end-game 2t4 is no longer the best. However, sets cannot be thrown together by just taking the best in slot. Until you reach that end-game level, T4 helm and shoulders are probably still best to keep. Again, this could remain true even over 4t6 until you have enough gear.

I'll be posting a beta version of my spreadsheet as soon as new items have stabilized. I've made quite a few changes, some of which are still in development though. I've kind of lost track, so hopefully I can remember them for notes.

Edit: Updated necklace with 10 hit gem instead of 12. This leaves the set 1 short instead of 1 over, possibly needing a little more tweaking.

 

oldmandennis

So most of the feral loot is "semi-tokenized" with the rogue loot. You actually need to loot the rogue piece, then turn it in with a sunmote to get the feral piece. This presents a druid that tanks and dps's with a delimma - the guise is amazing for dps, but the furry mask is unbelievable for tanking. Also I don't know if it's too soon to think about WotLK, but once you start leveling, if you traded your guise for a furry, you might really want it back. I found that WoW 1.0 epics that were well itemized were not replaced until level 70 blues for the most part. My guess is that a guise could probably last you all the way to 80.

 

Malazaar

You really shouldn't be worried about the leveling part - you'll be just as fast with furry hunter's (considering you get more stamina, armor and int for a minimal dps tradeoff). Remember that unlike in raiding, you need to tank, dps and heal at the same time while (solo) leveling.

 

Tasonir

I'm thinking that reaching 100% avoidance might be much easier with sunwell loot. Looking at items like [Leggings of the Immortal Beast] vs the previous best [Skulker's Greaves] is a 14 agility upgrade on one item, more than 1% dodge with kings. Granted I haven't found as many other large improvements but we can total it up when it's all finalized and released.

 

seminarca

This topic was addressed on the immediate preceding page:
http://elitistjerks.com/636595-post1841.html

=/

 

TimWischmeier

I see myself and my feral mates in our guild will be having problems in getting Cursed Vision or Guise (we're currently stuck at RoS, but looks alot like rougues are going to roll on Vision first, then all other dd. I don't think we will kill Kil'jaeden in any time too soon).

So I would like to hear, how far 2T4/4T6 would be behind a set with Vision or Guise, DPS-wise?

T4 - hat, shoulder
T6 - gloves, belt, boots, bracers

Do you think, it would be comparable to a Vision/Guise-Set, so that I can tell my stomach to stop hurting when thinking about the fact I won't probably ever reach those two items?

 

Draugdae

2 problems with this math:

1. Auchenai Monks Tunic + 3 10 Agility Gems is 54 Agi, not 60
2. You don't meet the meta gem requirements for RED with all 10 agility gems

Because of this we need to use Carnal Instinct for chest, losing 24 dodge rating and gaining 14*1.1*1.03 agility (15.9). We also lose the 12*1.1*1.03 agility (13.6) from RED.

We therefore end up with 1147.1 agi ->78.00% dodge
174 dodge rating = 9.20% dodge

This net change of 1.12% dodge does not drop us below 100%, but does imply that there may be some other choices to be made regarding the metagem.

Additionally, for testing purposes, do we know a high level mob (perferably 70+) that uses purely dodgable attacks?

 

shakounette

Hello, does anyone know if there's a mod like Ratingbuster that convert haste rating/armor penetration in % (or give an idea of the value in AEP) onto item tooltips?

 

Malazaar

As you said, Ratingbuster can do that for ratings (hit, crit, haste, etc.). As for Armor Penetration it's not possible, as the amount of damageincrease you see through it depends on the target's armor, which varies.

 

Goedel

Thank you for catching this. I was copying from my earlier list where I'd incorporated the enchantment. Since the Auchenai Monk's Tunic is in fact not the top item and is unlikely to be readily available anyway, I am cutting it from the list.

Ah, yes. I'd forgotten about this problem again. Since we are only gearing for maximum avoidance here, activating the meta gem for dps isn't essential, and it turns out that, even with an agility bonus on the chest, it costs more agility to satisfy the gem requirements than would be gained by using that helm instead of the previous non-meta-gemmed helm choice. In the end, since we can achieve >100% avoidance with room to spare, a druid in this luxurious position might well choose the helm with activated meta-gem anyway.

 

ironwolfw

Has anyone done empirical testing to determine the proc rate on [Shard of Contempt]? Using Rawr and manually entering this into the itemCache.xml I originally assumed 1ppm which makes this trinket ridiculously good (i.e. Better then [Berserker's Call] the previous best DPS trinket for me).

I'm assuming I didn't completely fail at math since Mijae also has this trinket in the proposed end-game DPS set using the same assumption. The only data on the proc rate I've found is one unsupported post on Wowhead asserting that it has a 45-sec internal cooldown.

 

xyruul

I'm pretty close with my set, but I'm building it before sunwell, as such several of those things aren't on it. I use t6 shoulder/chest, and skulker's greaves and gloves of dexterous manipulation instead of Sunwell loot.
[Slikk's Cloak of Placation] is the only upgrade to your list.

 

dukes

0.27% dodge/miss from defence, 1.32% dodge from pure dodge (about 1.75% avoidance). 33 agility (the Illidari cloak) will give ~37 agility after SotF and BoK, or almost 2.5% dodge.

Then again, it's probably the best directly available (i.e. not luck based on drops) item you can get for the slot in avoidance terms.

 

Tinweasele

I appoligize in advance for not following the current line of thought but i have a quick question regarding opening gambits in pvp.

To be more specific im a feral druid at 1830 with a subt rogue partner, and im trying to figure out what the best opener vs a druid is, and by best i mean most damaging. Currently we are opening with cheap shot + premed -> 5 point expose armor. So for a resto druid in cat that effectivly brings the armor down to near zero. so the question from there is, what moves do i use?

I am not currently using pounce because my rogues follow up kidney is more valuable considering pounce adds to the stun DR. So, do i ravage -> FFF -> mangle -> shred? or do i just give up stealth for -> FFF -> mangle -> shred-> shred.

 

Malazaar

This question belongs in the PvP Forums, i will give you a brief overview anyway.

To kill a druid your rogue should directly go cs->ks, this forces the druid to blow his trinket for the ks or he will take heavy damage. In my experience, i get away from rogues using expose.

Regarding your opener - go for pounce, it does more (reliable) damage and the stun is really good. It will only last 2s cause of the cs but it's good nonetheless. It does not reduce your ks duration, afaik.

You could also wait for your rogue to do his ks and pounce immediatly if the druid blows his trinket - you lose 4s of damage but you keep him in place.

 

Tinweasele

heh sorry, i thought about putting this in the pvp forum but i wasnt exactly looking for strategies, not to say that you dont give good advice but rather im looking for the highest damage/time output i can possibly do. pounce is nice but takes a long time to get full damage out of it. so i guess the entirety of my question comes down to ... use ravage or no? assuming a near 0 armor opponent, and keeping in mind that its not just the single hit but the fact that ravage takes 18 more energy to use than a shred.

 

Malazaar

Since the recent buff to ravage it does more damage/energy than a mangled shred.

 

ramenchef

I'm not so sure about that. The following napkin math shows that a mangled shred still does more damage/energy compared to the new ravage. Math in part one is credit of Toskk. It's close, but a mangled shred still comes out ahead. This shows that shred scales better in terms of damage per energy.

Mangle
1.2 * 1.6 * AP / 14
0.1371 * AP
40 energy
0.0034275 scaling/energy


Shred
1.3 * 2.25 * AP / 14
0.2089 * AP
42 energy
0.00497381 scaling/energy


Ravage
3.85 * AP / 14
0.275 * AP
60 energy
0.00458333 scaling/energy


Rip
1.3 * 0.24 * AP
0.312 * AP
30 energy
0.0104 scaling/energy

And even at a theoretical 0 AP, Shred still does more damage/energy than a mangled shred.

Shred
((1.3 * 2.25 * 54.8)+405)/42=13.459

Ravage
((3.85 * 54.8)+514)/60=12.083

 

xyruul

Oh right, I knew I was doing something wrong, I forgot to convert the defense rating to defense. sigh. Either way, you can't put random stat items into rawr and that's what I used to build my set. Much easier then constantly doing math.

 

• Astrylian

You can. You just have to add the stats yourself.

 

oldmandennis

Thinking abit more about the ideal cat set, it seems almost silly to count Kil'Jaden items in it. He is the big target - he is the one you should be planning your gearset around beating.

If you discount his loot (the Guise), then 2T4/4T6 (4: hat/shoulders 6: belt/bracer/boot/hand) takes a slight (10dps) lead over 4T6 (hat/belt/boot/bracer).

Simply going best in slot would be noticeably behind (40dps).

This is based on hand jamming stats into rawr - I haven't gotten around to doing trinkets/jewelry. I don't think that would change the relative value of the gearsets.

 

Phorage

I dont think there is a 12 hit gem. 12 crit there is but no 12 hit.


On another note, have anyone on PTR been able to spot any difference in threat on lacerate with the change to the scaling?

 

Mijae

Yes, planning an extreme end-game set does nothing in telling you how to get there. Chances are almost certain I will never see that set. It shows you max potential and a goal to aim for. As I said, just taking best in slot is a bad idea. It is also just as bad idea to only plan on getting the absolute best and nothing in between.

I usually keep a number of iterations of gear to plan for. Those include both the best possible as well as realistic possibilities (at each tier level). Best possible would be all the rogue loot, dps trinkets, and such as well as placement in the melee group. However, my guild runs melee heavy. We have up to 3 rogues, 3 dps warriors, 1 enh shaman, 4 hunters, and 1 other feral all highly active. This puts me very far down the line for upgrades as ferals are considered primarily for tanking. So, realistically I will possibly never receive the rogue loot and never get in to the melee group. As second MT, I also need to plan my gear for tanking which often means weighing stam over agi (especially since I generally can't get spinels).

As any individual progresses, they must evaluate options for their personal and guild requirements. You need to make both short-term and long-term goals.


Edit: Damn, another one of those JC cuts that never actually made it in. That puts the set 1 below hit cap. Maybe not so bad, but I'll have to re-evaluate.

 

oldmandennis

That's the reason I like the 2T4/4T6 setup. You should already have the T4 (if you are in a position to do more then day dream about T7). The b/b/b T6 pieces drop 3 at a time, so you shouldn't have much of a problem with those - cat's speed isn't bad for tanking, you can enchant stats on bracers unless you are really hard up for anti-crit, and purple epic gems or the rare red ones aren't that big a gap from the epic reds. T6 gloves are pretty much the same if you use them for tank or dps. If you are a LW you can craft the new chest - according to rawr for that particular gear set its pretty much equal to the rogue one. The legs may be a problem, especially since the #2 legs are the bear version of the rogue ones, and #3 is Thunderheart, which you may want enchanted for bear form.

 

raffy

I spent a few minutes and tried to pick out the gear I intend to wear for tanking on an "average" raid.

Edit: Updated armor, forgot armor from agility; new value is much better although it would be nice to drop the Magtheridon ring.

I came up with:

[top]> 35302 armor, 24764 hp, 71.54% dodge, 2.12% miss

> 0.63% hit, -3.74365482% parry, -3.74365482% dodge

A few remarks:
-- Total armor seems a bit low on the new pieces (see Belt of Natural Power vs T6, new chest has less than T6, oddly the new legs have more armor than T6)
-- I didn't factor in any procs (ie. ignored both trinkets and the idol)
-- I didn't choose max avoidance or max stam, just used new Sunwell loot as the assumed "upgrade"
-- I wanted to get uncritable without consumable assistance
-- I didn't use a guardian elixir, since I mostly just use Elixir of Agility on an "average" raid

-------------------------

Head:
[Mask of the Furry Hunter] (Sunwell)
611 armor, 50 agi, 58 sta, RM: 6 sta
[Thunderheart Cover]
611 armor, 39 agi, 49 sta, RB: 4 str

Neck:
[Collar of the Pit Lord] (Sunwell)
63 sta, 25 def, 29 exp
[Pendant of the Titans]
43 sta, 21 def, 25 dodge, 20 hit

Shoulder:
[Demontooth Shoulderpads] (Sunwell)
484 armor, 38 agi, 38 sta, RB: 3 agi
[Thunderheart Pauldrons]
484 armor, 36 agi, 34 sta, YB: 3 str

Cloak:
[Slikk's Cloak of Placation]
346 armor, 37 sta, 16 def, 25 dodge

Chest:
[Harness of Carnal Instinct] (Sunwell)
727 armor, 44 agi, 64 sta, RYB: 4 agi
[Thunderheart Chestguard]
781 armor, 36 agi, 51 sta, BYR: 4 str

Wrist:
[Thunderheart Wristguards]
264 armor, 28 agi, 39 sta, R: 3 sta
[Vindiciator's Dragonhide Bracers]
236 armor, 22 agi, 29 sta, 17 resil, R: 2 resil

Hands:
[Gloves of the Forest Drifter]
539 armor, 34 agi, 45 sta, RB: 3 agi
[Thunderheart Gauntlets]
539 armor, 32 agi, 34 sta, B: 2 str

Belt:
[Thunderheart Wasteguard]
319 armor, 40 agi, 34 sta, 22 hit, R: 3 sta
[Belt of Natural Power]
423 armor, 20 agi, 38 sta, RR: 4 sta

Legs:
[Leggings of the Immortal Beast]
765 armor, 46 agi, 66 sta, RRB: 4 agi
[Thunderheart Leggings]
737 armor, 41 agi, 49 sta, 27 hit, B: 2 str

Boots:
[Thunderheart Treads]
515 armor, 35 agi, 54 sta, 20 exp, R: 3 sta
[Treads of the Den Mother]
516 armor, 32 agi, 47 sta
[Footwraps of Wild Encroachment]
418 armor, 29 agi, 28 sta, RY: 3 str

Rings:
[Violet Signet of the Great Protector]
392 armor, 37 sta, 19 def
[A'dal's Signet of Defense]
367 armor, 34 sta, 20 def

Trinkets:
[Shadowmoon Insignia]
36 def, 32 dodge
[Commendation of Kael'thas] (proc ignored for calculation)
57 sta
[Badge of Tenacity]
308 armor

Idol:
[Idol of Terror] (proc ignored for calculation)

Weapon:
[Wildfury Greatstaff]
500 armor, 75 sta, 54 dodge

For this, I'll choose the top choice in each bracket (other gear just shown for reference).

Gear Totals:

611+484+346+727+264+539+319+765+515+392+367+500 = 5829 armor
50+38+44+28+34+40+46+35 = 315 agi
58+63+38+37+64+29+45+34+66+54+37+34+75+57 = 691 sta
25+16+19+20+36 = 116 def
25+32+54 = 111 dodge
29+20 = 59 exp

[top]> 5829 armor, 315 agi, 691 sta, 116 def, 111 dodge, 59 exp

Enchants:

Head: 18 sta, 20 resil (16 def, 17 dodge)
Shoulder: 10 def, 15 dodge
Cloak: 12 agi
Chest: 6 sta, 6 agi
Wrist: 12 sta
Hands: 15 agi
Legs: 40 sta, 12 agi
Feet: 12 agi
Rings: 8 agi, 8 sta
Weapon: 35 agi

Defense and Resilence:
(need > 2.6%, 39.42 resil or 2.37 * 25

59.25 def per -1% crit)

From gear:
116 def / 59.25 = 1.95780591% => 0.64219409% still needed
0.64219409 * 39.42 = 26 resil or
0.64219409 * 59.25 = 39 def

With [16 def, 17 dodge]:
116+16 = 132 def / 59.25 = 2.2278481% => 0.3721519% still needed
0.3721519 * 39.42 = 15 resil or
0.3721519 * 59.25 = 23 def

With [20 sta, 18 resil]:
116 def / 59.25 = 1.95780591%
18 resil / 39.42 = 0.456621005%

[top]> 2.41442691% total or 0.185573085% still needed
0.185573085 * 39.42

8 resil
0.185573085 * 59.25 = 11 def

Choosing the new helm enchant is a decent trade: -17 dodge for 20 sta

12+6+15+12+12+8+35 = 100 agi
18+6+12+40+8 = 84 sta
10 = 10 def
15 = 15 dodge
20 = 20 resil

[top]> 100 agi, 84 sta, 10 def, 15 dodge, 20 resil

Double check:
116+10 def / 59.25

2.12658228%
20 resil / 39.42 = 0.507356672%
=> 2.63393895% or 0.03393895% extra

Gems:

RED requires 2R, 2Y, 2B
R gems get 10 agi
B gems get 15 sta
Y gems get 5 agi / 5 hit

Head [RM: 6 sta]: M: 12 agi (RED), R: 10 agi
Shoulder [RB: 3 agi]: R: 10 agi, B: 15 sta
Chest [RYB: 4 agi]: R: 10 agi, Y: 5 agi / 5 hit, B: 15 sta
Wrist: [R: 3 sta]: R->Y: 5 agi / 5 hit
Hands [RB: 3 agi]: R: 10 agi, B: 15 sta
Belt [R: 3 sta]: R: 10 agi
Legs [RRB: 4 agi]: R: 10 agi, R: 10 agi, B: 15 sta
Boots [R: 3 sta]: R: 10 agi

(You could probably select these bonuses more ideally, but w/e)

12+10+3+10+4+10+5+5+3+10+10+4+10+10+10 = 116 agi
6+15+15+15+3+15+3 = 72 sta
5+5 = 10 hit

[top]> 116 agi, 72 sta, 10 hit

Overview:

Gear: 5829 armor, 315 agi, 691 sta, 116 def, 111 dodge, 59 exp
Enchants: 100 agi, 84 sta, 10 def, 15 dodge, 20 resil
Gems: 116 agi, 72 sta, 10 hit

5829

5829 armor
315+100+116 = 531 agi
691+84+72 = 847 sta
116+10 = 126 def
111+15 = 126 dodge
59 = 59 exp
10 = 10 hit

70 Night Elf:
=> 1% dodge, 77 agi, 84 sta, 3434 hp

Buffs:
Blessing of Kings (10% stats)
Improved Fort (102 sta)
Improved MotW (340 armor, 18 sta, 18 agi)
Imp Devotion Aura (1205 armor)
Imp Commanding Shout (1520 hp)
Imp Grace of Air Totem (89 agi)
Imp Bloodpact (85 sta)

Consumables:
[Food] Spicy Crawdad (30 sta)
[Battle] Elixir of Agility (35 agi)
[Guardian] none

340+1205 = 1545 armor
77+18+35+89 = 219 agi
84+102+18+30+85 = 319 sta
1520+3434 = 4954 hp

531+219 = 750 * 1.03 * 1.1 = 849 agi
847+319 = 1166 * 1.03 * 1.1 * 1.2 * 1.25 = 1981 sta
5829 * 5 * 1.1 = 32059 + 1545 + 849*2 = 35302 armor

126 dodge / 18.9231 = 6.65852847%
126 def / 59.25 = 2.12658228%
849 agi / 14.7 = 57.755102%
1% racial
4% talents

[top]> 71.54% dodge

126 def / 59.25

2.12658228%

[top]> 2.12% miss

10 hit / 15.76

0.634517766%

[top]> 0.63% hit

59 exp / 15.76

3.74365482

[top]> -3.74365482% parry, -3.74365482 dodge

1981*10 + 4954

24764 hp

Result:

[top]> 35302 armor, 24764 hp, 71.54% dodge, 2.12% miss

> 0.63% hit, -3.74365482% parry, -3.74365482% dodge

This ignores the idol and trinkets.